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Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

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sprinterguy

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How often do 170's run paired up though?
It's not at all common (on the Aberdeen/Inverness services that the HSTs will be operating), but could well cause problems on the minority of services where such formations are needed.

Presumably strengthening trainsets for special events will also be less likely when it is not as simple as coupling up a pair of units.

Not that I view the introduction of HSTs to Scotrail services as anything other than positive overall, mind: The majority of services will see an increase in seats, an improvement in first class service and in amenities provided in standard class, and trains better suited to these inter-city journeys.
 
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47271

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I do travel on Northern a lot funnily enough!

Last week I was on a couple of their 156s and also two Pacers. I'm not pretending that I enjoyed the experience on any of them but what was noticeable was that all four of them had very recently refurbed interiors.

Some Scotrail 170s are in good nick inside I agree but others would give Northern's worst a run for their money for threadbareness. And nothing in the north of England compares with the horrors of a collapsed seat on a Scotrail 158 for three hours, a long running phenomenon which upsets quite a few of us up here!
 

sprinterguy

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Last week I was on a couple of their 156s and also two Pacers. I'm not pretending that I enjoyed the experience on any of them but what was noticeable was that all four of them had very recently refurbed interiors.
"Refreshed" would be more accurate a term, as the majority of Northern's Pacers or 156s haven't seen a proper refurbishment in at least ten years, unless you were fortunate enough to find of the few Heaton 156s that have so far been refurbished for DDA compliance or the sole class 144 that has been similarly treated as a demonstrator unit.

Granted, however, that a number of Scotrail's 158s and 170s haven't seen any more attention for a comparable amount of time, although this isn't limited to Scotrail's units of those types: London Midland's 170s, which have only seen replacement seat covers and signage, are also starting to look fairly tired internally (and the Scotrail units I've travelled on recently were generally in a better condition than those), and I'm sure I've seen evidence of collapsed seats on Northern's 158s, which retain the original design of seat fitted when new.

Sadly, I would expect little work to be done to the Scotrail express 170 fleet before they go off lease in 2 - 3 years time.
 
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47271

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"Refreshed" would be more accurate a term, as the majority of Northern's Pacers or 156s haven't seen a proper refurbishment in at least ten years, unless you were fortunate enough to find of the few Heaton 156s that have so far been refurbished for DDA compliance or the sole class 144 that has been similarly treated as a demonstrator unit.

Granted, however, that a number of Scotrail's 158s and 170s haven't seen any attention for a comparable amount of time, although this isn't limited to Scotrail's units of those types: London Midland's 170s, which have only seen replacement seat covers and signage, are also starting to look fairly tired internally, and I'm sure I've seen evidence of collapsed seats on Northern's 158s, which retain the original design of seat fitted when new.
Ha ha, yes I meant they all had new seat covers! Both Pacers were so crowded I couldn't see any other part of their interiors properly...

The 156s looked like they'd had a bit done to them: the seat cushions felt new and plump and the tables were immaculate. I can't remember the floors.

Still a strong smell of damp in most vestibules of course.

And thank you for the tip, I must continue my nationwide quest for the UK's worst train seat, unrefurbed Scotrail 158 is still my winner. :)
 

marks87

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How often do 170's run paired up though? Much more common to have them running solo, or paired up with a 158.
On the "Intercity" routes, I only regularly see 170s doubled-up on Sundays. There is occasional strengthening at other times, but it's infrequent.
 

najaB

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On the "Intercity" routes, I only regularly see 170s doubled-up on Sundays. There is occasional strengthening at other times, but it's infrequent.
Same here. And I believe that Abellio have stated a desire to increase the service frequency on Sundays so the wouldn't need to run as many doubled-up sets anyway.
 

47802

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"Refreshed" would be more accurate a term, as the majority of Northern's Pacers or 156s haven't seen a proper refurbishment in at least ten years, unless you were fortunate enough to find of the few Heaton 156s that have so far been refurbished for DDA compliance or the sole class 144 that has been similarly treated as a demonstrator unit.

Granted, however, that a number of Scotrail's 158s and 170s haven't seen any more attention for a comparable amount of time, although this isn't limited to Scotrail's units of those types: London Midland's 170s, which have only seen replacement seat covers and signage, are also starting to look fairly tired internally (and the Scotrail units I've travelled on recently were generally in a better condition than those), and I'm sure I've seen evidence of collapsed seats on Northern's 158s, which retain the original design of seat fitted when new.

Sadly, I would expect little work to be done to the Scotrail express 170 fleet before they go off lease in 2 - 3 years time.

Well getting slightly off the point I think the condition of train interiors generally is a failure of privatisation, in my view it should be compulsory over the expected life of the train to have new interiors at half life, and at least new seat covers and carpets etc at 1/4, 3/4 and further work if life expectancy gets extended and it should be the responsibility of the train owners to ensure this work is carried out.
 

47271

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On the "Intercity" routes, I only regularly see 170s doubled-up on Sundays. There is occasional strengthening at other times, but it's infrequent.
Totally agree, there may be exceptions that habitually pass me by, but I don't see any regular 6-car 170s on weekday services north of the Central Belt. It's only the peak Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttles that (should be) doubled. I very rarely travel by train on a Sunday.

I get more 170+158 five car combos or 2x158, but still only on a very few services. Without poring over the arithmetic, I can't see that they're going to offer more space than a five coach HST?
 

delt1c

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Interesting plans for ScotRail, I wonder if we could see a semi circular service From Edinburgh to Glasgow via Aberdeen and Inverness using the HST's with a reversal at Inverness, would up up many through journey potentials.
What stock is the long term choice for the West Highland, the 156 cant soldier on for ever. After all they have worked these services longer than than any other modern traction.
 
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sprinterguy

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Well getting slightly off the point I think the condition of train interiors generally is a failure of privatisation, in my view it should be compulsory over the expected life of the train to have new interiors at half life, and at least new seat covers and carpets etc at 1/4, 3/4 and further work if life expectancy gets extended and it should be the responsibility of the train owners to ensure this work is carried out.
I'm inclined to agree. British Rail under sectorisation had good form in this regard. The first refurbishment of the HST fleet started in 1983 (retaining the same IC70 seats, but changing the spacing and layout) when the oldest trains were only seven years old. Had privatisation not come around, the next refurbishment of this fleet was pencilled in to take place between 1995 and 2000, which would have been considerably more thorough, at the expected half-life of these trains, and could well have seen modern features such as electronic seat reservation displays fitted which are still not evident on the majority of these trains.

BR Regional Railways also put into motion the refurbishment of its' Central and North West class 156 fleets in 1995, which included fitting them with entirely new seats despite the trains being only seven years old.

The disjointed nature of the privatised railway and the fairly short term of franchises means that no-one has any incentive to keep tabs on when the last refurbishment was done and when the next should ideally take place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I get more 170+158 five car combos or 2x158, but still only on a very few services. Without poring over the arithmetic, I can't see that they're going to offer more space than a five coach HST?
A 170+158 formation would have slightly more than a 2+5 HST (33 first, 291 standard versus 30/276 on the HST), a pair of 158s somewhat less (30 first, 246 standard). Note of course that around half of the planned Scotrail HST fleet will actually be shorter 2+4 formations, with 64 fewer standard class seats than the 2+5 formations. Although undoubtedly Scotrail will be looking to diagram the longer 2+5 sets on the busiest services where double sets do currently feature: Even 2+4 sets will certainly be an increase in capacity, and improvement in facilities and comfort, over the single 3-car 170s they will mainly be replacing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting plans for ScotRail, I wonder if we could see a semi circular service From Edinburgh to Glasgow via Aberdeen and Inverness using the HST's with a reversal at Inverness, would up up many through journey potentials.
Is their honestly going to be that much demand for journeys between, say, Aberdeen and Aviemore, or Elgin and Pitlochry or Perth, when much of the population in this area is well dispersed and rural in nature (and hence more likely to use or have access to a car) and the railway takes such a roundabout route to get between any two destinations split between the two routes?
What stock is the long term choice for the West Highland, the 156 cant soldier on for ever. After all they have worked these services longer than than any other modern traction.
The West Highland line will be gaining class 158 units refurbished to scenic train standard, as has already been carried out on 158701.

Most of the 156s are being retained and refurbished for use on the South West rural routes, though.
 
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Observer

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I would assume that there's more space on the HSTs anyway when you consider the door layout of the 170s. But people seem to be bringing a good point with the 170+158 combos, which are usually peak time workings. They must think that the 2+4 HSTs are going to work fine, otherwise over time spare carriages from redundant sets elsewhere could end up being converted and added to the sets.

Curious question in relation to those, how is the guard expected to work on 170+158 coupled trains, when there's no gangway? Is it just a case of reaching the next station, locking the guard panel up on the door and going to the next part and repeat that throughout the journey? Or do they have to remain on a particular part throughout?
 

sprinterguy

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I would assume that there's more space on the HSTs anyway when you consider the door layout of the 170s. But people seem to be bringing a good point with the 170+158 combos, which are usually peak time workings. They must think that the 2+4 HSTs are going to work fine, otherwise over time spare carriages from redundant sets elsewhere could end up being converted and added to the sets.
There's more standing and circulating space on a 170 than an HST because of the door layout, although this is much more of a concern on commuter and suburban services (where the 170s are being replaced by new EMUs with a similar layout) than the longer distance services that the HSTs will operate.

There's a couple of 2+6 HST sets intended to be added into the fleet later in the franchise (and a corresponding reduction in the number of 2+4 and 2+5 sets), but if Scotrail do end up looking for more carriages (at additional cost to themselves while still meeting the subsidy/premium payment level stipulated in the franchise agreement) then their availability will depend on whether we see another scenario like that at the end of loco-haulage on the WCML, where large numbers of carriages were put into secure storage by the ROSCOs for possible future use, or whether they go quickly for scrap.
 
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marks87

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Most of the 156s are being retained and refurbished for use on the South West rural routes, though.
What's the issue with 158s/170s in the South West? I remember a few years ago there was a plan to do the necessary gauge clearance.
 

Philip Phlopp

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What's the issue with 158s/170s in the South West? I remember a few years ago there was a plan to do the necessary gauge clearance.

It's mainly door stepboards on the Class 170 fleet, nothing that shouldn't be remedied by the IEP gauge clearance works, they can catch the platform edging on tighter curves.

There can also be a bit of an issue with yaw dampers on the occasional platform with unusual stonework below solebar height, which is why Class 156 units don't have any issues.
 

ld0595

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Pretty much none of the intercity trains are doubled up. The only one I can think of is on a Sunday where a service from Glasgow and Edinburgh join up to go to Aberdeen. Therefore I can imagine even a 2+4 will be an increase in capacity.

It's also worth noting that there will be more stopper services from Inverurie to Aberdeen and (Nairn?) to Inverness which will relieve capacity on the Aberdeen to Inverness intercity. Also Highland Mainline will be going hourly too which will be a significant increase in capacity.
 

Altnabreac

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Pretty much none of the intercity trains are doubled up. The only one I can think of is on a Sunday where a service from Glasgow and Edinburgh join up to go to Aberdeen. Therefore I can imagine even a 2+4 will be an increase in capacity.

It's also worth noting that there will be more stopper services from Inverurie to Aberdeen and (Nairn?) to Inverness which will relieve capacity on the Aberdeen to Inverness intercity. Also Highland Mainline will be going hourly too which will be a significant increase in capacity.

I seem to recall someone mentioning on another thread that the 05.54 Inverness - Aberdeen was diagrammed as a 170 + 158 because of the high commuting demand into Aberdeen.

Otherwise I think there are very few 3 car + services on weekdays north of the Central Belt.
 

IanXC

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I seem to recall someone mentioning on another thread that the 05.54 Inverness - Aberdeen was diagrammed as a 170 + 158 because of the high commuting demand into Aberdeen.

Otherwise I think there are very few 3 car + services on weekdays north of the Central Belt.

Is that not the service diagrammed 1x170 + 2x 158, the longest diesel formation diagrammed on all of ScotRail?

The only regular services I know of above 3 car are a handful of southbound morning services from Aberdeen booked 170+158.
 

47271

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Is that not the service diagrammed 1x170 + 2x 158, the longest diesel formation diagrammed on all of ScotRail?

The only regular services I know of above 3 car are a handful of southbound morning services from Aberdeen booked 170+158.
There's at least one on that route that's well known to be booked as seven car, yes.

A specific example: the 1741 Queen Street-Aberdeen always runs as 170+158 as far as Perth, where the 158 is removed from the rear.
 

Chrism20

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Looks like the £5 bargain fares are now in the system for some of the intercity routes.

I didn't think they would start until the HSTs arrived
 

me123

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Hmm, just what we ne need, further overcrouding on Inverness trains

They are advance tickets though, so I imagine that the £5 tickets will be mostly made available on the quieter trains to Inverness. The busy trains likely won't have (m)any of them.
 

Butts

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They are advance tickets though, so I imagine that the £5 tickets will be mostly made available on the quieter trains to Inverness. The busy trains likely won't have (m)any of them.

And more to the point when are they going to have any First Class Deals ?
 

me123

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And more to the point when are they going to have any First Class Deals ?

It'd have to be a pretty good deal with the current service - First Class on Scotrail's Turbostars isn't particularly worthwhile at the moment IMO!

I'm hoping for good deals on the HSTs, with a better cabin and perhaps a light complimentary offer for First Class travel. Am I asking too much? I hope not!
 

Butts

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It'd have to be a pretty good deal with the current service - First Class on Scotrail's Turbostars isn't particularly worthwhile at the moment IMO!

I'm hoping for good deals on the HSTs, with a better cabin and perhaps a light complimentary offer for First Class travel. Am I asking too much? I hope not!

I would think that is a possibilty but a bit to wait before the HST's arrive.

On the Turbostars, Scotsman or Evening News, Coffee and Shortbread - better than nowt - if "the price is right" :p
 

Starmill

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I'm yet to find a single £5 fare to or from Inverness. Spotted some between Glasgow and Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Aberdeen and on the West Highlands though.
 
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