ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[marks87]

Only quoting the info given at the station

You're not, though. Nowhere at the station would you have been told anything about "ABZ to GLQ".

The forum rules are quite clear on the use of abbreviations; using the correct station codes is bad enough. Using made-up ones is worse...

 

[swaldman]

It doesn't seem impossible to me - 30kW seems high for lighting, a/c, etc., but I'm guessing that there might be enough heating and/or cooling capacity fitted to the coaches to make a them habitable within a few tens of minutes, rather than a few hours, after spending a below-freezing night or a sundrenched day powered down. That could reach that kind of power rating, especially with 1970s technology.

The extra 40kW for the kitchen car does feel like a lot, but *shrug*
Given that, an LNER set would need 8x30+70 = 310kW, plus whatever the power cars need when off, plus enough for the engine preheating that we were talking about... suddenly that 600Ax3 spec doesn't seem so unreasonable. There's still a question as to whether all of this needs to be done without any engines running - rather than just supplying enough for engine preheat and then having an engine power the rest.

 

[AndrewE]

The extra 40kW for the kitchen car does feel like a lot, but *shrug*.

I think that when the WCML was running Mk III seated coaches but with a Mk I kitchen car in the consist the Mk IIIs were marked up "1000 Amp wiring." (or maybe I saw it in the carriage marshalling circular.) Anyway I took it that the all-electric galleys used more current than would be expected to pass through a "normal " Mk III.

 

[mark-h]

The plugs and sockets would have to be massive to carry 600A. The largest easily available 3 phase plugs and sockets tend to be 125A- above that individual cables would be run for each phase as it is easier to manage (A single cable carrying 600A 3 phase would be very thick and difficult to handle).

 

[weatherman222]

You're not, though. Nowhere at the station would you have been told anything about "ABZ to GLQ".

The forum rules are quite clear on the use of abbreviations; using the correct station codes is bad enough. Using made-up ones is worse...

No, that was referring to the information about the train having broken down, not the abbreviations which have been removed to conform to forum rules

 

[gordonjahn]

The plugs and sockets would have to be massive to carry 600A. The largest easily available 3 phase plugs and sockets tend to be 125A- above that individual cables would be run for each phase as it is easier to manage (A single cable carrying 600A 3 phase would be very thick and difficult to handle).

Oh, I agree, but the specification is quite clear:

B3.4.5 ETS energised at 415V 3 phase

On the High Speed Train, for which this equipment was designed, the interconnectors have three main current carrying pins/tubes rated at 600A,
415V a.c. The neutral is not carried through the interconnectors but is bonded to the vehicle frame via a 2kΩ resistor at the alternator on the power car.

 

[43096]

isn't the electricity generated from the engine as DC and then inverted to AC...? in that case, for a given wattage, where the voltage is much lower, the current is much higher.

No. HST power cars have traction and auxiliary alternators producing three-phase AC. The auxiliary supply goes to the train as three-phase, but the traction power is rectified to DC before being fed to the traction motors.

 

[anamyd]

No. HST power cars have traction and auxiliary alternators producing three-phase AC. The auxiliary supply goes to the train as three-phase, but the traction power is rectified to DC before being fed to the traction motors.

Oh right, thanks!

 

[43096]

Clearly you know more on this subject than I do, but at first glance these figures seem high to say the least.

As I'm sure most hear know, watts = volts x Amps. Volts and Amps are inversely proportional, when one goes up the other goes down to maintain the same wattage rating.

70kW to run one kitchen car would be the equivalent of ~305 amps at 230VAC. given that most residential homes get a 60/80A feed and small businesses get 100/120A feed, 305 seems to be way too high to power was is essentially a 100m2 kitchen

30kW on a trailer car is ~120A @ 230VAC. I know they need AC, Lighting, sockets etc, but 30kW seems like a lot to me.


To put in real money, at an average mains electricity rate of 12p/kWh a 30kW trailer would cost ~£10,500/Year based on only an 8 hour service per day and a 70kW Kitchen car would be ~£25,000/Year

It is the absolute maximum power demand of all the kitchen equipment, and peak heating/lighting load. Obviously it is only rarely that such loads are drawn.

 

[James James]

It doesn't seem impossible to me - 30kW seems high for lighting, a/c, etc., but I'm guessing that there might be enough heating and/or cooling capacity fitted to the coaches to make a them habitable within a few tens of minutes, rather than a few hours, after spending a below-freezing night or a sundrenched day powered down. That could reach that kind of power rating, especially with 1970s technology.
<snip>

Can't speak as to UK practice, but here on the continent I remember seeing an article about the local railways keeping heating in trains overnight (or at least turning the heating on much earlier) during the one week that we had -10C. Admittedly a large portion of those trains are being operated from 5am until midnight, so the 5 hours "wasted" heating isn't terrible in relative terms...

 

[jingsmonty]

I was about to post something along the lines of "A 415V 3ph supply isn't exactly a specialist supply though - it's standard wall-socket power, albeit all three phases instead of the single-phase to neutral 230V most of us are used to" but looking at https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GMGN2590 Iss 1.pdf (page 52) for the vehicle connectors, it specifies the ETS supplies as being capable of handling 600A.

Does anyone know if it is a full ETS connection required for shore supplies or if it's just for keeping engines warm (i.e. most stuff turned off...), would a much more readily available 32A supply be sufficient? I ask because I think I've seen 32A 3ph sockets in Queen Street.

It's a full ETS connection (the connecting socket, situated under the nose cone cover & through the train looks the same, or similar to, a LHCS ETH connection).

It powers a fair bit - all the power car & coach electrics. It's not just for pre-heating the engines, it also powers the air compressors in the power cars, the HVAC in the power cars/coaches & all other ancilliary electrical systems. The jumper cables are almost the thickness of my wrist ..

 

[Esker-pades]

The 09:46 ex-Inverness is a HST today. The 2 Highland Main Line (HML) ScotRail services before (not including the Highland Chieften) were single 158 units. "My" train (07:04 ex-Glasgow QS) is a 170. Subbing continues to be rife.

Does Inverness have enough spare 158s to sub onto HML services before it starts having an impact on North Highland services?

 

[Highland37]

I don't know but I do know that many people are shifting to lift sharing and buses. The Wabtec delays are causing a modal shift.

 

[swaldman]

I don't know but I do know that many people are shifting to lift sharing and buses. The Wabtec delays are causing a modal shift.

I noticed that last week a short-notice bus ticket for Edinburgh<>Aberdeen was more expensive than a short-notice Scotrail return. I've never seen that before on that route, and I wonder whether it's evidence of that shift.

 

[superkev]

I don't know but I do know that many people are shifting to lift sharing and buses. The Wabtec delays are causing a modal shift.

I wonder if the contract with Wabtec included for any penalty payments. With many possibly unforseen issues with old stock I doubt any late delivery payments could be realitically enforced.
K

 

[47271]

Does Inverness have enough spare 158s to sub onto HML services before it starts having an impact on North Highland services?

As I understand it from a second hand account over Christmas, the use of more 158s on intercity services comes at the expense of short forms on commuter routes in the Central Belt. In other words they're keeping it all going by the skin of their teeth. Any Highland Main Line cancellations that I've heard of since 3 January (and this is only what users have told me, I haven't been poring over RTT so I'm not claiming total accuracy) have been crew rather than stock led.

Also bear in mind that some HML services aren't booked as HSTs on the current timetable, for example the 1809 Queen Street-Inverness is a 170, so the rate of substitution might not be quite as high as it appears.

 

[Bassman]

Just back from a return trip down south by train from Inverness to Perth by LNER Chieftain and hence to and from Glasgow by Scotrail. With railcard and 1st class option the Chieftain HST experience is in my opinion a top class rail experience, with porridge, coffee, toast, juice, from friendly cabin staff, in a warm comfortable coach, while passing through Highlands at dawn. This was on a day when outside temperatures were well below zero. The Scotrail service on a 2 coach 158 and return by drafty 170 was marked with a shortage of seats. I have given up trying to find the HST Scotrail connections. Given the good will of Scotrail staff to improve their service, it shows that running a premier intercity train service entails a lot more in management finesse. If LNER can run these old trains to run at such a level of service ( even though there are failings with LNER) then though we can blame Wabtec a lot, it falls on management at Abellio, to upscale their training and logistics on many levels and shows the weakness in the franchise bidding process. A proper intercity service needs depth in experience and delivery. We can hope that Scotrail staff are supported to provide this with these trains .

 

[Highland37]

Yes that is my experience also (crew shortage issues rather than lack of stock). However, the crew shortages are often caused by them being pulled for training if one of the HSTs arrives in a station. This happened to me on the 4th of January when a classic HST arrived in Inverness only for it to be pulled at the last moment and a filthy 158 arrive for the evening journey to Glasgow.

That's fine when you are fit and healthy. Last night however there was a heavily pregnant lady on the 1553 from Inverness which was a 170. The need for more space and comfort was really brought home.

I really hope the HSTs arrive soon. I use the train a lot and haven't been on a Scotrail one yet. I suppose if I was a real saddo I could travel to Aberdeen and go that way but it doesn't appeal.

 

[Northhighland]

Yes that is my experience also (crew shortage issues rather than lack of stock). However, the crew shortages are often caused by them being pulled for training if one of the HSTs arrives in a station. This happened to me on the 4th of January when a classic HST arrived in Inverness only for it to be pulled at the last moment and a filthy 158 arrive for the evening journey to Glasgow.

That's fine when you are fit and healthy. Last night however there was a heavily pregnant lady on the 1553 from Inverness which was a 170. The need for more space and comfort was really brought home.

I really hope the HSTs arrive soon. I use the train a lot and haven't been on a Scotrail one yet. I suppose if I was a real saddo I could travel to Aberdeen and go that way but it doesn't appeal.

The space issue is very real. It is not good enough that passengers are treated so poorly. I have had it for now, am taking the car until things settle down. A 158 on the Highland mainland is just not acceptable.

 

[Highland37]

Although, I do recognise one issue that very little can be done about - the loading gauge is too small relative to trains on the continent. It makes for a tight experience and couple that with the poor service and poor rolling stock, it's not worth paying £57.70 for a potential bus from Perth onwards.

Has the second set seen any passengers yet and what about the third set?

 

[CJSwan]

The second set is to be based in Perth for a few weeks in order to get some more conductor (and maybe driver) training completed.

 

[GusB]

There have been some Perth-Elgin journeys on RTT over the last few evenings (3H63) which I assume would be training runs - would this have been the second refurbished set? I haven't caught a glimpse of it so far as they've cancelled it at Inverness.

 

[Highland37]

Yesterday I saw a classic set at Inverness.

How many individuals have to be trained and is it a one off training session or require several sessions?

 

[jingsmonty]

The 09:46 ex-Inverness is a HST today. The 2 Highland Main Line (HML) ScotRail services before (not including the Highland Chieften) were single 158 units. "My" train (07:04 ex-Glasgow QS) is a 170. Subbing continues to be rife.

Does Inverness have enough spare 158s to sub onto HML services before it starts having an impact on North Highland services?

Just about - but some of them are 'patched up', to say the least....

 

[jingsmonty]

Yesterday I saw a classic set at Inverness.

How many individuals have to be trained and is it a one off training session or require several sessions?

Not 100% sure about Conductors, but it's 3 weeks for Drivers (1 week classroom/static training & 2 weeks running out). This is why the dedicated training train had to ve reinstated, despite the detrimental impact on the passenger service

 

[jingsmonty]

There have been some Perth-Elgin journeys on RTT over the last few evenings (3H63) which I assume would be training runs - would this have been the second refurbished set? I haven't caught a glimpse of it so far as they've cancelled it at Inverness.

Yes, this is one of the training runs. The Elgin paths were created to allow the drivers who were training & couldn't get enough running out time on passenger trains. The paths aren't really required now, as the original Perth run has been reinstated, but I imagine it is still on the system as a backup, if required

 

[Esker-pades]

The space issue is very real. It is not good enough that passengers are treated so poorly. I have had it for now, am taking the car until things settle down. A 158 on the Highland mainland is just not acceptable.

I'm on the road too now. I didn't want to be, but my train was subbed for a rail replacement bus.

 

[anamyd]

I'm on the road too now. I didn't want to be, but my train was subbed for a rail replacement bus.

I didn't know trains had tyres, as in Bridgestones. or steering wheels. or numberplates

 

[chuff chuff]

Hard to tell much in the dark but passing Haymarket depot earlier looked liked one of the refurb has had a little bit of graffiti added to it.

 

[anamyd]

Hard to tell much in the dark but passing Haymarket depot earlier looked liked one of the refurb has had a little bit of graffiti added to it.

that's totally going to help things...