ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Wst71Pa2]

This really looks like a severe case of under-staffing and a staff who have decided that they might quite like the odd day off which doesn't involve trains or training.

You'd be amazed how long it takes from online application to start date

 

[Mingulay]

I never expect stock to enter service when they are meant to, as it often takes a lot longer, as Scotrail are unwillingly demonstrating.

If Abellio had no prior knowledge of staff training requirements and staffing levels given they run a franchise elsewhere and in the Netherlands then they are singularity ill equipped to run Scotrail or indeed any franchise. They try to blame wabtec and hitachi but this is a problem of their making. And given Abellio were a recognised poor operation in the uk before winning the Scotrail franchise,then Transport Scotland have a liability for appointing Abellio. But we are where we are . All this money spent and we are scrabbling about with cancellations and short formed trains long after the time we were promised so much more. Is there any indication when staff training will be completed and they run a service with classic or refurbished sets with no short formed or dmu on these routes day in day out ? A fully refurbished HST intercity service seems a long way off , are we talking next year 2020?

 

[InOban]

I wonder how long such training takes in the Netherlands?

While I respect the insistence of professional train drivers on maintaining their standards, this is a role they share with the official safety organisations.
When I was a schoolteacher faced with a new syllabus I might get one In service day, the rest was in my own time.

 

[jingsmonty]

How long does it take to train a driver on new (old) rolling stock?

Was it the case that driver training had been too slow due to training been taken place on two separate types of MK3?

If Wabtec had rolled out the first set months ahead of when it did come out there wouldn't have been such a problem as this?

No, that's not the case at all. I would guess that we will do static training on the new doors - the driver training takes 3 weeks (1 week classroom/static & 2 weeks practical handling). The late delivery of the refurbished sets hasn't got anything to do with the backlog.

Remember, the HST is a very different beast to the DMUs that we are used to - there are a lot of differences!

 

[jingsmonty]

I wonder how long such training takes in the Netherlands?

While I respect the insistence of professional train drivers on maintaining their standards, this is a role they share with the official safety organisations.
When I was a schoolteacher faced with a new syllabus I might get one In service day, the rest was in my own time.

You should be glad that we DO insist on maintaining our high standards - driving a 4500hp train weighing over 200 tons & capable of high speed is something that SHOULD be taken seriously!

I'm trying not to be sarcastic here, but it's hard - I really don't see your point, comparing driving a train to a school syllabus - or what driving a train in The Netherlands has to do with it. I'd imagine it's pretty similar - we have EU Train Drivibg licenses, so I would think the standards are pretty common, Europe - wide anyway.

 

[jingsmonty]

You would think that a pair of Scottish power cars (lots available, apparently) together with almost any Mk III coaches fit to run would work as a (slam door) training train. As long as the heating and lighting worked in one of them they could pretend that was the passenger accommodation, and staff training for the upgrade to power doors would then be a relatively short job.

The Training train that is in Inverness is being used for a passenger service Tomorrow - this is why the training trains are interchangeable with the 'classic' passenger sets....

 

[nat67]

No, that's not the case at all. I would guess that we will do static training on the new doors - the driver training takes 3 weeks (1 week classroom/static & 2 weeks practical handling). The late delivery of the refurbished sets hasn't got anything to do with the backlog.

Remember, the HST is a very different beast to the DMUs that we are used to - there are a lot of differences!

Don't they have wheel slip detectors on them when refurbished?

 

[najaB]

Don't they have wheel slip detectors on them when refurbished?

I don't know about detection, but they definitely didn't have wheelslip prevention installed. Apparently it was removed from the spec because management didn't see it as valid for money.

 

[MisterT]

I wonder how long such training takes in the Netherlands?

Training for a new unit or locomotive takes usually two or three days, which includes training runs. The only exception being the Bombardier Traxx locomotive, which takes five days. It is basically a regular three day course, with two days of additional training runs added.
Training for guards takes usually half a day.

Over the past few months, more than 1500 drivers have received their training on our new CAF "SNG" units here in the Netherlands. That one took three days, which was even a luxury and could have been done in two days.

 

[43096]

I don't know about detection, but they definitely didn't have wheelslip prevention installed. Apparently it was removed from the spec because management didn't see it as valid for money.

HSTs have had wheelslip prevention equipment fitted from new on both power cars and trailers. The power car electronics upgrade includes fitting the newer, improved Knorr-Bremse system.

 

[InOban]

Training for a new unit or locomotive takes usually two or three days, which includes training runs. The only exception being the Bombardier Traxx locomotive, which takes five days. It is basically a regular three day course, with two days of additional training runs added.
Training for guards takes usually half a day.

Over the past few months, more than 1500 drivers have received their training on our new CAF "SNG" units here in the Netherlands. That one took three days, which was even a luxury and could have been done in two days.

Thanks for that. Is the classroom training traditional, or is it computer based?

I have links to the health service, as I am sure do many other posters. The NHS could not afford to release whole teams of staff for several days classroom training on a new piece of kit. Computer learning followed by practical assessment.

In both Scotland and in the North of England there are people who have been forced to abandon an unreliable train service and to choose much more dangerous modes. We need a safe transport system, not just a safe railway.

 

[MisterT]

Thanks for that. Is the classroom training traditional, or is it computer based?

We don't have a classroom training or computer based training as such. Only exception again being the Bombardier Traxx locomotive, which has a day of old-school classroom training.
The training we get is very practical approach and a real hands-on training. We train in small groups with a maximum of 4 drivers.
In short:
Day 1: after arriving and walking to the trains that are reserved for the training, we sit down inside one of the units and have a bit of general talk about the units.
After that, we go outside and walk around the unit, where we get a more in-depth detailed explanation about things like the couplers, bogies, traction equipment, converters, brakes, etc. Because we walk around the unit, most things can be pointed out.
After the walk around the train, we start with the basics of preparing the unit for service, get in-depth information about the internal systems and everyone gets one or several goes on preparing the unit, until everyone is satisfied that they are able to do that without using the manual.
Then we do the basic coupling/decoupling procedures, including manually coupling/decoupling. Again, everyone will do all things at least one or more times.
After the lunch break, we do some fault finding and resolving issues, and do things like isolating equipment, earthing the train, and again everyone gets a hands-on experience in all of those parts.
Day 2 is a continuation from day 1, but this time with more day-to-day faults like broken doors, retractable steps, toilets and there is of course time for questions about things from day 1.
Usually just before lunch, we do the first of the training runs (this is a return run). During the runs we try to simulate a lot of things one could encounter during a ride, like pulling the emergency handles, tripping the safety systems, isolating equipment and brakes, etc.
After lunch, we do a second training run (again a return run, so everyone got to drive one part of the return).
Day 3 is a day two on repeat. There is time for questions, things we would like to see and do again, and of course another two return training runs, but this time without the special things, and we simulate a day-to-day operation, like stopping at all intermediate stations.
After the second return run, we get an exam about the unit (both practical and written) and that's it.

 

[Please Explain]

Any HST's out and about today? Was hoping to try them out for the first time on Scottish metals this afternoon with 1A73 1539 Queen St - Aberdeen..

Many thanks in advance.

 

[jingsmonty]

I don't know about detection, but they definitely didn't have wheelslip prevention installed. Apparently it was removed from the spec because management didn't see it as valid for money.

They certainly give a fair kick when the wheelslip lamp comes on! I suspect you're right - I thought they had a rather crude WSP system fitted from new, (but think this may just be the Mk3 coaches) - the other TOCS have the newer Knorr/Bremse electronics fitted (including WSP). Definetly a mistake not to fit this, IMHO...

 

[jingsmonty]

We don't have a classroom training or computer based training as such. Only exception again being the Bombardier Traxx locomotive, which has a day of old-school classroom training.
The training we get is very practical approach and a real hands-on training. We train in small groups with a maximum of 4 drivers.
In short:
Day 1: after arriving and walking to the trains that are reserved for the training, we sit down inside one of the units and have a bit of general talk about the units.
After that, we go outside and walk around the unit, where we get a more in-depth detailed explanation about things like the couplers, bogies, traction equipment, converters, brakes, etc. Because we walk around the unit, most things can be pointed out.
After the walk around the train, we start with the basics of preparing the unit for service, get in-depth information about the internal systems and everyone gets one or several goes on preparing the unit, until everyone is satisfied that they are able to do that without using the manual.
Then we do the basic coupling/decoupling procedures, including manually coupling/decoupling. Again, everyone will do all things at least one or more times.
After the lunch break, we do some fault finding and resolving issues, and do things like isolating equipment, earthing the train, and again everyone gets a hands-on experience in all of those parts.
Day 2 is a continuation from day 1, but this time with more day-to-day faults like broken doors, retractable steps, toilets and there is of course time for questions about things from day 1.
Usually just before lunch, we do the first of the training runs (this is a return run). During the runs we try to simulate a lot of things one could encounter during a ride, like pulling the emergency handles, tripping the safety systems, isolating equipment and brakes, etc.
After lunch, we do a second training run (again a return run, so everyone got to drive one part of the return).
Day 3 is a day two on repeat. There is time for questions, things we would like to see and do again, and of course another two return training runs, but this time without the special things, and we simulate a day-to-day operation, like stopping at all intermediate stations.
After the second return run, we get an exam about the unit (both practical and written) and that's it.

That's pretty good - it sounds like a 'conversion course' you're describing here. I had something similar when I had to convert from EMUs to DMUs (although on a 'one to one' basis), which was 3 days to convert to 170s & 2 days to convert from EMU to DMU (although, in reality, was more just 5 days on 170s).

The issue with the HST training is that it isn't a basic conversion from one DMU to another - the HST is more like a Locomotive & coaches in the way it works (although it is kind of like a DEMU as well....), particularly the braking system. Our course is designed for drivers (like myself) who have no loco driving experience at all, having only driven multiple units. The HST is a unique beast!

Thanks again for your description of the training!

 

[jingsmonty]

HSTs have had wheelslip prevention equipment fitted from new on both power cars and trailers. The power car electronics upgrade includes fitting the newer, improved Knorr-Bremse system.

That was what I thought as well - I know the coaches definetly have WSP fitted....as NajaB said, it would be good to clarify whether the power cars have detection only or protection (it's pretty crude, if it does have WSP...). The Knorr/Bremse electronics SHOULD have been fitted - false economy not to...

 

[43096]

That was what I thought as well - I know the coaches definetly have WSP fitted....as NajaB said, it would be good to clarify whether the power cars have detection only or protection (it's pretty crude, if it does have WSP...). The Knorr/Bremse electronics SHOULD have been fitted - false economy not to...

The power cars categorically have (from new) had wheelslip protection. It is pretty crude - it basically cuts power when it detects a slip and then re-applies it. Which of course can cause it to slip again, so it cuts power etc etc. The KB system is a huge improvement as it both detects the slip better and feeds power back in in a much smarter way.

 

[jimm]

That was what I thought as well - I know the coaches definetly have WSP fitted....as NajaB said, it would be good to clarify whether the power cars have detection only or protection (it's pretty crude, if it does have WSP...). The Knorr/Bremse electronics SHOULD have been fitted - false economy not to...

Perhaps if you consider the expected timeline of GW fleet replacement during the period the MTUs were being fitted in Class 43s, you might understand why FGW decided against fitting the Knorr-Bremse system to its 118 Class 43s - the InterCity Express Programme was initially supposed to result in shiny new trains entering service at the start of 2013.

The delays as a result of constantly shifting DfT requirements for the trains it wanted, the decision to electrify the GWML and the further delays that followed the 2010 election meant the initial order with Agility/Hitachi was not finalised until July 2012.

Anyone suggesting in 2006 that many of those FGW Class 43s would end up being expected to carry on working deep into the 2020s would have been seen as crazy.

 

[MisterT]

That's pretty good - it sounds like a 'conversion course' you're describing here. I had something similar when I had to convert from EMUs to DMUs (although on a 'one to one' basis), which was 3 days to convert to 170s & 2 days to convert from EMU to DMU (although, in reality, was more just 5 days on 170s).

The issue with the HST training is that it isn't a basic conversion from one DMU to another - the HST is more like a Locomotive & coaches in the way it works (although it is kind of like a DEMU as well....), particularly the braking system. Our course is designed for drivers (like myself) who have no loco driving experience at all, having only driven multiple units. The HST is a unique beast!

Thanks again for your description of the training!

That might make a bit of a difference, indeed, but in my view (but obviously I don't know any English stock) it is mostly a difference in how the loco/coaches behave when driving and braking. The basics from how the train is built is still the same.
The difference in driving behaviour is exactly why we get two more days of training with the Bombardier Traxx and the ICR coaches, but for those days, we join a driver for a complete shift.

 

[najaB]

HSTs have had wheelslip prevention equipment fitted from new on both power cars and trailers. The power car electronics upgrade includes fitting the newer, improved Knorr-Bremse system.

Right, sorry. It was the newer (and effective) system that I was referring to. The older system is pretty basic detection as @jingsmonty pointed out and doesn't really do wheelslip prevention.

Are you sure that the upgrade has happened? It's been reported on the forum several times that it was deleted from the reconditioned spec.

 

[InOban]

Thanks very much for taking the time to give us a complete breakdown of the training.

There remains the problem that much of the railway system is more expensive than the public finances can afford. Clearly if the public and the unions were perceived as having a common purpose, of expanding the use of the railway to the benefit of us all, then it would be easier to convince the purse holders.

 

[Please Explain]

Any HST's out and about today? Was hoping to try them out for the first time on Scottish metals this afternoon with 1A73 1539 Queen St - Aberdeen..

Many thanks in advance.

And its a cart! C'est la vie!!
Plan B, trying out my first 385 to over to Edinburgh. Sadly these new units leave a lot to be desired, reminds me of 700's...

 

[43096]

Right, sorry. It was the newer (and effective) system that I was referring to. The older system is pretty basic detection as @jingsmonty pointed out and doesn't really do wheelslip prevention.

Are you sure that the upgrade has happened? It's been reported on the forum several times that it was deleted from the reconditioned spec.

You are confused: I was referring to power cars in general i.e. of the entire fleet. Think I was the one who originally said that the upgrade was removed from the ScotRail upgrade spec!

 

[Please Explain]

43140 on a scratch 4-car set away from Montrose with 1A79 1628 Edinburgh - Aberdeen! Rear PC UID at the moment. Very surreal experience for me in this ex-GWR interior way up here!

 

[jingsmonty]

Perhaps if you consider the expected timeline of GW fleet replacement during the period the MTUs were being fitted in Class 43s, you might understand why FGW decided against fitting the Knorr-Bremse system to its 118 Class 43s - the InterCity Express Programme was initially supposed to result in shiny new trains entering service at the start of 2013.

The delays as a result of constantly shifting DfT requirements for the trains it wanted, the decision to electrify the GWML and the further delays that followed the 2010 election meant the initial order with Agility/Hitachi was not finalised until July 2012.

Anyone suggesting in 2006 that many of those FGW Class 43s would end up being expected to carry on working deep into the 2020s would have been seen as crazy.

That makes sense, but Scotrail not fitting it doesn't...

 

[jingsmonty]

The power cars categorically have (from new) had wheelslip protection. It is pretty crude - it basically cuts power when it detects a slip and then re-applies it. Which of course can cause it to slip again, so it cuts power etc etc. The KB system is a huge improvement as it both detects the slip better and feeds power back in in a much smarter way.

Cheers for that, appreciate the clarification... I notch back anyway when WSP is detected, but I can't help feeling that the Knorr/Bremse system would be of huge benefit, particularly during the autumn

 

[alangla]

A question on HST driver training- is it all done on real trains or is some of it done in a simulator? Do they use the Turbostar or 334 sims during traction training for those classes? What sims have ScotRail actually got?

 

[najaB]

You are confused: I was referring to power cars in general i.e. of the entire fleet. Think I was the one who originally said that the upgrade was removed from the ScotRail upgrade spec!

Ah, thanks. That makes sense.

 

[chuff chuff]

A question on HST driver training- is it all done on real trains or is some of it done in a simulator? Do they use the Turbostar or 334 sims during traction training for those classes? What sims have ScotRail actually got?

All HST training done on actual sets.The sim centre in Glasgow Central has a 170 sim and an electric sim but don't know what class.

 

[anamyd]

43140 on a scratch 4-car set away from Montrose with 1A79 1628 Edinburgh - Aberdeen! Rear PC UID at the moment. Very surreal experience for me in this ex-GWR interior way up here!

"rear power car unidentified" I'm guessing...?