ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

43096

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When do LNER our HST’s off hire? Would their sets be better candidates for conversion? I know there would be contractual issues with different owners but assuming that can be fixed would they be better?
End of the year. But, the plan is apparently for many of them to transfer to EMR for 12 months as they are more PRM compliant than the current EMR fleet.
 
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Highland37

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I M currently on LNER service to Inverness after a day working in Glasgow. I have today experienced the good and bad of Scotrail.

Left this morning at 8:45 on a refurb HST directly to Glasgow. Excellent journey bang on time train was excellent very clean and tidy.

Left in Aberdeen train at 16:40. A 170 instead of a HST. was rammed leaving Queen street with people standing to Perth. Trolly struggles to get through train with luggage in corridors. Very difficult for crew no seat reservations. People complaining etc.

LNER on time and a pleasant journey from Perth.

If the refurbs can work reliably they are a good product. Surely work can be done to get them out working as they should.
I am on the platform. How will I recognise you?
 

absolutelymilk

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It could well be that the only way to salvage the situation will be for TS, despite their faults, to come in as operator of last resort. I think their first task will be do get some class 170s or similar from somewhere
Good luck with that! It looks very unlikely that EMR and XC will leave any spare 170s behind...

the second task being procurement for a proper intercity fleet for the long distance routes. I give the HSTs they do have about 5 years tops.
Isn't that likely to happen if the 3-year extension is granted anyway?
 

GrimShady

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In simple terms it's the amount of corrosion work required on the vehicles. The ScotRail vehicles have spent a considerable portion of their lives working in areas exposed to sea air and sea water - Dawlish etc. There is a limit to how many people you can have working on a vehicle at a time, which limits how quickly Wabtec can get through them. It is interesting to note that the last XC set was converted in around four months - substantially quicker than any of the GWR and ScotRail vehicles.
It's still a ridiculous amount of time spent on 23m vehicle. I've been in dry dock jobs that have included a ships mid-life refit where pretty much everything is renewed or repaired in six weeks, these are substantially bigger bits of metal than a few Mk3 coaches. I've even been involved with inserting brand new section to lengthen a vessel which took three weeks, again a very complicated procedure.
 
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43096

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It's still a ridiculous amount of time spent on 23m vehicle. I've been in dry dock jobs that have included a ships mid-life refit where pretty much everything is renewed or repaired in six weeks, these are substantially bigger bits of metal than a few Mk3 coaches. I've even been involved with inserting brand new section to lengthen a vessel which took three weeks, again a very complicated procedure.
Yes, but a ship is much bigger than a Mark 3, so you can get more people in. There is a limit to how many people you can have cutting and welding a Mark 3 at once, especially as it is a monocoque shell, so you can't just start cutting lots of bits out simultaneously.
 

GrimShady

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Yes, but a ship is much bigger than a Mark 3, so you can get more people in. There is a limit to how many people you can have cutting and welding a Mark 3 at once, especially as it is a monocoque shell, so you can't just start cutting lots of bits out simultaneously.
It's still a ridiculous amount of time being taken. What's the working day at Wabtec? 9-5 with breaks and probably only one fitter/welder per few coaches? I sincerely doubt there's 12 hours of work going into each set a day at this rate.
 
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Highland37

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The latest issue of RAIL has many letters in it asking why the HSTs going off lease are not being used elsewhere. Not one mentions the condition of the vehicles and all suggest lots of ideas as if these trains are just ready to go on into the future as they have in the past.
 

Northhighland

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The latest issue of RAIL has many letters in it asking why the HSTs going off lease are not being used elsewhere. Not one mentions the condition of the vehicles and all suggest lots of ideas as if these trains are just ready to go on into the future as they have in the past.
That is the problem with such a successful design. These trains are very comfortable to travel in and in some cases offer a preferable passenger experience to the trains that replace them.

I have to say the refurb I was on yesterday was a very pleasant way to travel to Glasgow.

However you also have a point. They can’t go on for ever. Think that for the next 6 months every effort has to go into getting them working reliably and delivering a full HST timetable.

Then the future needs to be looked at.
 

Railperf

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That is the problem with such a successful design. These trains are very comfortable to travel in and in some cases offer a preferable passenger experience to the trains that replace them.

I have to say the refurb I was on yesterday was a very pleasant way to travel to Glasgow.

However you also have a point. They can’t go on for ever. Think that for the next 6 months every effort has to go into getting them working reliably and delivering a full HST timetable.

Then the future needs to be looked at.
I guess they won't go on forever, but there surely will be a minimum period of use specified in the contract to cover the refurb costs - after which Abellio will be able to assess the costs vs 755s in East anglia and the Hitachi 80x coming to EMR. And clearly, if the accountants see an opportunity to save money leasing new stock taking into account reliability / maintenance, fuel, lease termination charges etc - then i am sure they will not hesitate to bring in a replacement.
 

Railperf

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Any news on how many diagrams have been fulfilled by 'classic' or refurbished sets in the last day or two? And if so - which ones?
 

433N

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I'm just completely bemused at the Scotrail HST situation. I know the issues with refurbishments but leaving those issues aside (because even the 7 delivered sets don't seem to be in regular service) ...

They have 54 power cars which, I think, have nearly all been refurbed and the first arrived in Scotland over 2 years ago now.

Excluding a training set, they have 13 classic sets and 7 refurbished sets and yet day-after-day they can get nowhere near running 10 diagrams per day.

It's truly unbelievable. I wonder what the program management think that failure looks like.
 

Highland37

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I'm just completely bemused at the Scotrail HST situation. I know the issues with refurbishments but leaving those issues aside (because even the 7 delivered sets don't seem to be in regular service) ...

They have 54 power cars which, I think, have nearly all been refurbed and the first arrived in Scotland over 2 years ago now.

Excluding a training set, they have 13 classic sets and 7 refurbished sets and yet day-after-day they can get nowhere near running 10 diagrams per day.

It's truly unbelievable. I wonder what the program management think that failure looks like.
Well said.
 

connormill

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Excluding a training set, they have 13 classic sets and 7 refurbished sets and yet day-after-day they can get nowhere near running 10 diagrams per day.

It's truly unbelievable. I wonder what the program management think that failure looks like.
So if we are now at 7 delivered Refurbs when do we start seeing 5 card sets being delivered?

Wasn't the original plan to be a 20x5 and 6x4 car sets? or will they get all sets out as 4s then splice int he 5th car once they become available
 

DannyMich2018

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I'm just completely bemused at the Scotrail HST situation. I know the issues with refurbishments but leaving those issues aside (because even the 7 delivered sets don't seem to be in regular service) ...

They have 54 power cars which, I think, have nearly all been refurbed and the first arrived in Scotland over 2 years ago now.

Excluding a training set, they have 13 classic sets and 7 refurbished sets and yet day-after-day they can get nowhere near running 10 diagrams per day.

It's truly unbelievable. I wonder what the program management think that failure looks like.
Couldn't agree more!! Only five refurbs have been delivered this year, despite the three extra "classics " usage seems to have gone down. Scotrail has been rarely out of the news this year (not just regarding this though) Doesn't show any signs of improving either, any bets to when all 26 will be delivered AND in service? 2022?!
 

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