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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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hexagon789

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I'm not sure if this has been said but could they have not used the power car luggage area. So the (old guard office).

Question is why are the power cars NOT being used for cycles etc??? There must have been a reason for that poor design!

It was said to be due to the fire protection system in a few posts a while back but apparently that's not an issue according to some other posts so make of it what you will ;)
 
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bigmoose

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Am I right in thinking that December’s timetable change assumes an entirely HST fleet on the 7 Cities routes?

If so, what are the chances of Scotrail being able to operate to the published timetable?

On my Glasgow to Aberdeen trips I’ve only had the very occasional HST (Classic, never refurb) this year, and was entirely unsurprised to get a 170 both ways last Wed and Thu (0741 and 1630 respectively) vice booked HSTs.

With many HSTs currently sitting around Haymarket depot in pieces and delivery of refurbs never exceeding 1 per month, will the December timetable change be undeliverable?

(On the bike issues upthread, I wrote to the Transport Secretary some months ago and got a standard-issue bland response from Transport Scotland, aka Cars Scotland, who don’t understand anything other than cars let alone the integration of active travel with public transport. As the esteemed Lee Craigie is now Scotland’s Active Nation Commissioner, I hope her social media intervention achieves a better result.)
 

Highland37

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It seems unlikely but you never know, they might manage to get their act together.

There are a lot of challenges though; not enough refurbished sets, most refurbished sets are not in service, both the classic and refurbished sets seem to be a bit unreliable, they are losing some more 170s, etc...
 

bigmoose

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Seems sensible in the circumstances. I just hope that the service improves soon. Colleagues were commenting that they liked going to Aberdeen a few months ago as it meant they’d get the “nice train” (aka Classic HST). Hope we don’t get to the stage where more 170s go off lease and opinions get voiced on the suitability of a 2-car 158 as a working environment for business travel. (Although getting from A to B is obviously most important, and time away from the laptop isn’t a bad thing!).
 

GrimShady

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It seems unlikely but you never know, they might manage to get their act together.

There are a lot of challenges though; not enough refurbished sets, most refurbished sets are not in service, both the classic and refurbished sets seem to be a bit unreliable, they are losing some more 170s, etc...

No chance. Give them the boot now, which I believe is coming anyway.
 

Railperf

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Would be little point in doing anything to running times, though they could ammend calling patterns.
You could easily improve running times by making the most of 'GTi' HST performance compared to a Class 170 or a 158.
But definitely not until there is enough stock to fulfil those diagrams and not be substituted by the slower trains.
 

Northhighland

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No chance. Give them the boot now, which I believe is coming anyway.

Think you are probably right the boot is likely to come to Abellio.

That in itself won’t solve the problem though. A change in a few top tier managers won’t change what happens on the ground.

Also changing operator will only work if you fully understand why Abellio have failed. That is the only way you can retender and make sure the next operator doesn’t make the same mistakes.
The HST project is a good example. The project management of the introduction looks like it underestimated two key challenges. Firstly the length of time to train the staff, this started to late and meshed into the 385 roll out and they lacked the programme management skills to manage that. I accept other staffing issues played a significant role but really training could have been handled better.

Secondly the HST’s themselves. They seemed to have underestimated the challenge of keeping a 40 year old fleet running reliably. Hard to believe the maintenance teams that Keep 170’s and158’s running so well suddenly are ineffective. What they are working with is clearly not acceptable and that needs sorted. Either more refurb and training and or maybe accept they have a very limited lifespan.

Either way just replacing the operator might create the illusion of doing something but without clearly understanding why this is needed it may change nothing at all.
 

hexagon789

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You could easily improve running times by making the most of 'GTi' HST performance compared to a Class 170 or a 158.
But definitely not until there is enough stock to fulfil those diagrams and not be substituted by the slower trains.

Indeed and that's the 'plan' isn't it?

As things stand though - even May might be optimistic to introduce faster timings.
 

GrimShady

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And what would change?
Think you are probably right the boot is likely to come to Abellio.

That in itself won’t solve the problem though. A change in a few top tier managers won’t change what happens on the ground.

Also changing operator will only work if you fully understand why Abellio have failed. That is the only way you can retender and make sure the next operator doesn’t make the same mistakes.
The HST project is a good example. The project management of the introduction looks like it underestimated two key challenges. Firstly the length of time to train the staff, this started to late and meshed into the 385 roll out and they lacked the programme management skills to manage that. I accept other staffing issues played a significant role but really training could have been handled better.

Secondly the HST’s themselves. They seemed to have underestimated the challenge of keeping a 40 year old fleet running reliably. Hard to believe the maintenance teams that Keep 170’s and158’s running so well suddenly are ineffective. What they are working with is clearly not acceptable and that needs sorted. Either more refurb and training and or maybe accept they have a very limited lifespan.

Either way just replacing the operator might create the illusion of doing something but without clearly understanding why this is needed it may change nothing at all.

Absolutely nothing, but at the very least they deserve to lose the franchise. We should not be putting up with this garbage or allow them to trade one day longer. Everything they have promised has been a complete failure. Didn't they say half the refurb fleet will be in service this summer followed by the rest by the end of year? What's the excuse now, if any? Lots of promises and very little to show for it.
 
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Brissle Girl

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Think of all those tens of millions flowing to Directors and shareholders being put into buying new stock and lots of extra staff...
It’s actually the other way round. The parent company has had to pile many millions in to keep the company afloat, which is hardly surprising, given the extra costs it will have faced and revenue shortfall against plan given services have not been improved as expected.

It’s quite likely that if it had been state run then given the difficulties the result would have been a paring back of the eventual improvements, in the same way one of the first things East Coast announced was that the projected increase in Lincoln services was ditched.
 

47271

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Think you are probably right the boot is likely to come to Abellio.

That in itself won’t solve the problem though. A change in a few top tier managers won’t change what happens on the ground.

Also changing operator will only work if you fully understand why Abellio have failed. That is the only way you can retender and make sure the next operator doesn’t make the same mistakes.
The HST project is a good example. The project management of the introduction looks like it underestimated two key challenges. Firstly the length of time to train the staff, this started to late and meshed into the 385 roll out and they lacked the programme management skills to manage that. I accept other staffing issues played a significant role but really training could have been handled better.

Secondly the HST’s themselves. They seemed to have underestimated the challenge of keeping a 40 year old fleet running reliably. Hard to believe the maintenance teams that Keep 170’s and158’s running so well suddenly are ineffective. What they are working with is clearly not acceptable and that needs sorted. Either more refurb and training and or maybe accept they have a very limited lifespan.

Either way just replacing the operator might create the illusion of doing something but without clearly understanding why this is needed it may change nothing at all.
I think that this is a fair assessment. Abellio has failed because they signed up to a difficult situation, but then they went on to make it worse. Unless there's some realism at government level about what Scotrail's expected to achieve with the resources made available then whatever follows them will go the same way.
Think of all those tens of millions flowing to Directors and shareholders being put into buying new stock and lots of extra staff...
I take it that this is humour?
 

InOban

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I notice that the refurb whose delivery appeared in RTT ten days ago still hasn't appeared. I'm wondering whether ScotRail have told Angel Trains and wabtec that they don't want any more until the they - that's Wabtec - get the ones already delivered actually performing reliably. There's no point in paying lease charges for more sets to sit in pieces in Haymarket.
 

Tetchytyke

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Abellio has failed because they signed up to a difficult situation, but then they went on to make it worse.

I think a lot of the issues are not their fault though. The fact that Hitachi somehow managed to design a train which gave drivers double vision wasn't their fault, and the delays to the 385s has caused mayhem everywhere else. Having to train staff on the 365s then again on the 385s delayed training elsewhere, the lack of 385s delayed cascading of stock, and so on. And I'm not sure why Wabtec are struggling with the HST work as a lot of the work required is the same as what they did for Chiltern, so there shouldn't be so many issues.

I'm no Abellio fan but I think they've had a lot of bad luck.
 

YorkshireBear

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Albellio ScotRail is currently making a loss, and bein propped up by albellio parent company. If we strip them of the franchise we have to pay for that lost.
 

47271

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Are any refurbs actually running at the moment? The last few days anything that I've got that's meant to be an HST has either been a classic or a 170, and roughly half and half between the two. Even services that have been reliably HSTs for months have reverted to 170s.
 

najaB

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Are any refurbs actually running at the moment? The last few days anything that I've got that's meant to be an HST has either been a classic or a 170, and roughly half and half between the two. Even services that have been reliably HSTs for months have reverted to 170s.
There's one parked in Dundee sidings for the last couple of days. Pretty sure I saw one out running yesterday as well.
 

InOban

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ScotRail post the planned trips on twitter each day. Rarely more than two diagrams.
 

ashworth

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Absolutely nothing, but at the very least they deserve to lose the franchise. We should not be putting up with this garbage or allow them to trade one day longer. Everything they have promised has been a complete failure. Didn't they say half the refurb fleet will be in service this summer followed by the rest by the end of year? What's the excuse now, if any? Lots of promises and very little to show for it.

Instead of taking the franchise away from them, Abellio have been rewarded by being given the East Midlands franchise. Stagecoach might not have done a very exciting job with EMT but they maintained their trains well. Hopefully we won’t have to put up with the same sort of problems with Abellio in the East Midlands as you have in Scotland. They have promised an almost complete stock replacement for EMR, and for the local services many of this is cascaded 170’s, some from Scotland.
 

Highland37

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I saw a full refurbished set going south today, just north of Tomatin. No idea if it was training or in service. It looked pretty good, but dated.
 

snookertam

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Think you are probably right the boot is likely to come to Abellio.

That in itself won’t solve the problem though. A change in a few top tier managers won’t change what happens on the ground.

Also changing operator will only work if you fully understand why Abellio have failed. That is the only way you can retender and make sure the next operator doesn’t make the same mistakes.
The HST project is a good example. The project management of the introduction looks like it underestimated two key challenges. Firstly the length of time to train the staff, this started to late and meshed into the 385 roll out and they lacked the programme management skills to manage that. I accept other staffing issues played a significant role but really training could have been handled better.

Secondly the HST’s themselves. They seemed to have underestimated the challenge of keeping a 40 year old fleet running reliably. Hard to believe the maintenance teams that Keep 170’s and158’s running so well suddenly are ineffective. What they are working with is clearly not acceptable and that needs sorted. Either more refurb and training and or maybe accept they have a very limited lifespan.

Either way just replacing the operator might create the illusion of doing something but without clearly understanding why this is needed it may change nothing at all.

I disagree that changing managers wont change what is happening on the ground. It might not be quick, but such a move can signal improvements. Remember it was the backbone of the Abellio bid to replace the class 170s with HSTs so it's pretty much their pet project. ScotRail are pretty much stuck with it for now, but in the medium to longer term you might find more sense displayed. Everything that is happening just now is down to Abellio and by extension Transport Scotland for having selected them.

It could well be that the only way to salvage the situation will be for TS, despite their faults, to come in as operator of last resort. I think their first task will be do get some class 170s or similar from somewhere - the second task being procurement for a proper intercity fleet for the long distance routes. I give the HSTs they do have about 5 years tops.

When Abellio were selected as the preferred bidder for the franchise back in 2014, ScotRail staff at that time were predicting things would go downhill. Sadly they have been proven correct.
 

najaB

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When Abellio were selected as the preferred bidder for the franchise back in 2014, ScotRail staff at that time were predicting things would go downhill.
To be fair though, some would have said so regardless of who the chosen bidder was.
 

Northhighland

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I disagree that changing managers wont change what is happening on the ground. It might not be quick, but such a move can signal improvements. Remember it was the backbone of the Abellio bid to replace the class 170s with HSTs so it's pretty much their pet project. ScotRail are pretty much stuck with it for now, but in the medium to longer term you might find more sense displayed. Everything that is happening just now is down to Abellio and by extension Transport Scotland for having selected them.

It could well be that the only way to salvage the situation will be for TS, despite their faults, to come in as operator of last resort. I think their first task will be do get some class 170s or similar from somewhere - the second task being procurement for a proper intercity fleet for the long distance routes. I give the HSTs they do have about 5 years tops.

When Abellio were selected as the preferred bidder for the franchise back in 2014, ScotRail staff at that time were predicting things would go downhill. Sadly they have been proven correct.
Change will only work if you understand what you want to change. Abellio haven’t deliberately failed. I cannot see the point of change for the sake of it.

If we change operator it has to be for clearly understood and identifiable reasons. We have to know what the next operator has to do differently.

They will be stuck with the HST’s. Too much money gone in to abandon.
 

43096

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And I'm not sure why Wabtec are struggling with the HST work as a lot of the work required is the same as what they did for Chiltern, so there shouldn't be so many issues.
In simple terms it's the amount of corrosion work required on the vehicles. The ScotRail vehicles have spent a considerable portion of their lives working in areas exposed to sea air and sea water - Dawlish etc. There is a limit to how many people you can have working on a vehicle at a time, which limits how quickly Wabtec can get through them. It is interesting to note that the last XC set was converted in around four months - substantially quicker than any of the GWR and ScotRail vehicles.
 

Northhighland

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I M currently on LNER service to Inverness after a day working in Glasgow. I have today experienced the good and bad of Scotrail.

Left this morning at 8:45 on a refurb HST directly to Glasgow. Excellent journey bang on time train was excellent very clean and tidy.

Left in Aberdeen train at 16:40. A 170 instead of a HST. was rammed leaving Queen street with people standing to Perth. Trolly struggles to get through train with luggage in corridors. Very difficult for crew no seat reservations. People complaining etc.

LNER on time and a pleasant journey from Perth.

If the refurbs can work reliably they are a good product. Surely work can be done to get them out working as they should.
 

Northhighland

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In simple terms it's the amount of corrosion work required on the vehicles. The ScotRail vehicles have spent a considerable portion of their lives working in areas exposed to sea air and sea water - Dawlish etc. There is a limit to how many people you can have working on a vehicle at a time, which limits how quickly Wabtec can get through them. It is interesting to note that the last XC set was converted in around four months - substantially quicker than any of the GWR and ScotRail vehicles.

When do LNER our HST’s off hire? Would their sets be better candidates for conversion? I know there would be contractual issues with different owners but assuming that can be fixed would they be better?
 
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