• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,879
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Just a matter of opinion really. I'd of thought the Mk5s would be more spacious compared to the IEPs.

I genuinely look forward to trying both. One thing I'm sure of is that both will be better than, dare I bring it in here, Voyagers.

In the end, though, the thing that will make them spacious or not is a bloke with a load of seats and a spanner. TPE's aren't DfT-specced, so there's no reason for them to have the GWR interior.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,573
Location
Hong Kong
I genuinely look forward to trying both. One thing I'm sure of is that both will be better than, dare I bring it in here, Voyagers.

In the end, though, the thing that will make them spacious or not is a bloke with a load of seats and a spanner. TPE's aren't DfT-specced, so there's no reason for them to have the GWR interior.

Can't wait to try both myself. Although the IEPs do have some worrying connotations of Voyagers...just need to wait and see I suppose.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,298
Just a matter of opinion really. I'd of thought the Mk5s would be more spacious compared to the IEPs.

I think we need to separate the bodyshell/type of train from the internal fit. You can just as easily make a Mark 3 awful internally (see Great Western seating layout) as you can an IEP or Mark 5.

I fully expect the IEPs will be horrible internally - all the reviews by serious journalists (the likes of Roger Ford and Ian Walmsley) have not been kind - and you can bet their views were edited down for publication.

The HST's crown as the finest InterCity train we've ever had is not at risk from their replacements!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,879
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I think we need to separate the bodyshell/type of train from the internal fit. You can just as easily make a Mark 3 awful internally (see Great Western seating layout)

And even that is a matter of opinion. I'd rather an improved pitch and more tables, but I'll take the GWR high density layout over anything involving IC70s.
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
I might have mentioned this in another thread a while ago but I was given the chance to try out dummy IEP seats at King's Cross a couple of years ago. A guy from the project was stood there letting anyone who showed an interest sit in both First and Standard and give feedback.

Plump isn't the word I would use for either design, and this is one of the reasons why I quite like the look of the present GWR First Class arrangments.

That aside, they seemed absolutely fine but then I'm lucky in that I don't suffer from any back problems or aches and pains. However, I'm not small and lack of legroom is the killer for me - back to the bloke with the spanner - another reason for my interest in First on the Scotrail HSTs.

I'm not encouraged by the GWR HST Standard seats I'm afraid. I find the same design in Scotrail 158s far too upright and, again, I have nowhere much to put my legs.
 

aar0

Member
Joined
13 Sep 2016
Messages
302
I'm not encouraged by the GWR HST Standard seats I'm afraid.

I'm 6'6", and fit in comfortably to the vast majority of seats on GWR HSTs - though there are about 4 in a carriage with less legroom that the others, oddly. I find them very comfortable, and the fold down table, with the little brace so a large laptop can sit on it happily, very good for working at.

First class seats are a different ball game though, like a 125mph armchair!
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
When im doing a 3-4 hour trip upto London its nice to vary my seating position. An option I will not have come IEP. Deep vein thrombosis here I come!:cry:

Factually, crossing legs increases the risk of DVT due to the compression on the back of the upper leg. The best safeguard is putting pressure on both feet placed firmly on the floor; you do not need to stand, just apply significant pressure from time to time. For passengers, a walk is always good say every 2 hours.
 

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,573
Location
Hong Kong

Griff

Member
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
13
It's an interesting document and it'll also be interesting to try them out once they're in service as well.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
I for one can't wait for the HSTs to arrive. They are so much better for the passenger than the 170s or awful 158s. I was on an Intercity Mk2 from Tulloch to Corrour on Friday night and they are so much more spacious than a unit.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
Also, does anyone know if they will be able to fix the creaking and squeaking from the couplings?
 

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,573
Location
Hong Kong
I for one can't wait for the HSTs to arrive. They are so much better for the passenger than the 170s or awful 158s. I was on an Intercity Mk2 from Tulloch to Corrour on Friday night and they are so much more spacious than a unit.

Aye but the sound brake cylinders of the Mk2s are right deafening, although I agree, I can't wait for the HSTs to arrive - but the seating plans don't give me much hope for decent window alignment, as well as general comfort and ambiance since there won't be a divider in the middle of standard class coaches.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
Aye but the sound brake cylinders of the Mk2s are right deafening, although I agree, I can't wait for the HSTs to arrive - but the seating plans don't give me much hope for decent window alignment, as well as general comfort and ambiance since there won't be a divider in the middle of standard class coaches.

Thanks.

"Happy Hogmanay" is Bliadhna Mhath Ùr in Gaelic.
 

blackhill

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2012
Messages
31
Location
Perth
A close friend of mine came across a set of documents lying on the table in a staff bothy regarding in-depth details of the refurbishment plan for the Scotrail HST fleet.
I can't find any released PDFs online nor on this forum, so I've started this thread dedicated to the Scotrail HST arrival and refurbishment.

Here's the details within the documents which I've taken the time to type up, and I've have attached the images from them which contain renders, seating plans, and statistics charts;


The best scoop of 2016.
 

jingsmonty

Member
Joined
21 Oct 2014
Messages
1,022
Location
Inverness
There's been an increase in the number of five car sets compared to four car ones, so that's good news.

It makes sense that they're retaining the existing Grammar seats; they're of a modern and comfortable design that should be absolutely fine in the lower density layout Scotrail have specified.

Thanks for posting this Clansman, it's good to see some confirmed details of these trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

British Rail were looking to move the guard's office to a mid-train position just over twenty years ago when they created a couple of concept vehicles for the next HST refurbishment; it's surprising that there has been little movement away from the TGS in the intervening two decades of privatisation (though the guard will still be based at one end of the train in this layout - just the opposite end to current practice!).

Grammer seats are modern & comfortable? Modern they may be, but comfortable they are definetly not!! Have sat in a GWR hst from padfington to St Austell, in a rock hard seat with a ridiculously upright pitch - they would ve far better with a better pitch. Far too high backs on them as well, but that's a safety thing, I would presume. Our Scotrail 158 grammer seats are even worse, as they feel cramped - particularly the table seats.

Morectable seats aren't necessarily a good thing either - far prefer an airline seat as I don't spend a journey trying not to acciddentaly kick the person opposite!

Deeply disappointed with the hst refurb - sounds like a tart up job, like the Inverness 158s. Wish there were 26 class 180 units available instead - 5 coaches, relatively comfy seats, much quicker crew training (3 days approx, rather than 3weeks) and plenty of power for the gradients!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,879
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Grammer seats are modern & comfortable? Modern they may be, but comfortable they are definetly not!! Have sat in a GWR hst from padfington to St Austell, in a rock hard seat with a ridiculously upright pitch - they would ve far better with a better pitch. Far too high backs on them as well, but that's a safety thing, I would presume.

Seats are a matter of opinion. Those seats are my favourite present UK Standard Class railway seat, FWIW.

Our Scotrail 158 grammer seats are even worse, as they feel cramped - particularly the table seats.

That's not the fault of the seat, that's the fault of the layout. The original Class 158 layout, while tight, alternated table and airline to avoid significant "between seat backs" wasted space. The current one doesn't so wastes more space.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,298
That's not the fault of the seat, that's the fault of the layout. The original Class 158 layout, while tight, alternated table and airline to avoid significant "between seat backs" wasted space. The current one doesn't so wastes more space.

Or creates more luggage space on services that need it.
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
I was in Standard on a couple of GWR HSTs for the first time in years the other day, I think the last time was so long ago that they didn't even have Grammer seats. I'd expected to feel short of legroom and hemmed in as I do on Scotrail 158s, but I didn't at all. In general the interiors felt a lot more modern and fresh than I had anticipated. I much prefer tables because I get my laptop out and work properly.

I also found the trains far smoother, quieter and solid feeling at speed that the VTEC HSTs that I'm much more familar with. Maybe I got two good running mk3s, but there was none of the mysterious lurching, creaking and banging that you get from the East Coast sets when they stop and start. They're going to make an excellent starting point for Scotrail using them for relatively low speed use in their final years.

As for suggesting that a fleet of the ghastly 180s with engines grinding away under the floor and every fixture and fitting vibrating its way up Drumochter would be preferable to ex GWR HSTs - each to their own I suppose!

All my own opinions of course...
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,879
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
As for suggesting that a fleet of the ghastly 180s with engines grinding away under the floor and every fixture and fitting vibrating its way up Drumochter would be preferable to ex GWR HSTs - each to their own I suppose!

180s are rubbish - very poor build quality. They do have a generous seat pitch, but you can space the seats out in whatever rolling stock you like, it involves half a day and a bloke with a spanner, that's all. IEP might be nice, but is probably overkill. I'd imagine CAF could do you a nice end-doored bi-mode based on the TPE WCML EMUs once the HSTs are knackered.
 

mrmatt

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2012
Messages
114
Location
Flitwick
I also found the trains far smoother, quieter and solid feeling at speed that the VTEC HSTs that I'm much more familar with. Maybe I got two good running mk3s, but there was none of the mysterious lurching, creaking and banging that you get from the East Coast sets when they stop and start.

I had my first experience on GWR HSTs this week (one refurbished, one not) and have to agree with this. Compared to the EMT and VTEC HSTs I have been on in the past it was a superbly smooth journey in very well done accommodation.
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Chris Tate, the manager of the Scotrail HST program, is holding a "technical lecture" regarding the HSTs, detailing how they will be introduced and what specifications they will entail, at the Caledonian University.

Hopefully afterward, the information will be publicly released and new information could surface such as the introduction phases.

https://nearyou.imeche.org/near-you/UK/Scottish-Region/Scottish-RD-Centre/event-detail?id=12303

Suggest people keep an eye out for slides from this as a lot of questions and issues raised here answered. Seat pitch and spacing changing in standard (for the better) so same seats but different positioning and window alignment.

Acceleration out of Inverness unlikely to be a problem especially as Inverness - Edinburgh / Glasgow likely to be the 2 + 4s.

Design looking really good and a lot of thought gone into the product. Not a quicky / cheapo upgrade at all.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
Urm what? 2 plus 4 for INV EDB? Disaster. The short sets would be better for the more frequent Aberdeen services.

Even 2 plus 5 will go like **** of a shuvvle as it is.

Compared to a 3-car 170 it's an improvement in every respect. If passenger numbers do skyrocket then adding more Mk3s isn't going to be difficult at all, especially if the alternative for the ROSCO is to scrap them.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,824
Location
Scotland
Acceleration out of Inverness unlikely to be a problem especially as Inverness - Edinburgh / Glasgow likely to be the 2 + 4s.
Are you sure about that? I know there are going to be frequency increases but the 170s are frequently full so I can see a 4+2 being full pretty quickly as well.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top