ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[GrimShady]

Chris Green had been pushing for HST way back in 1984!

 

[47271]

I was talking to my Dad about this earlier tonight, and it's funny how things come round.

Bear in mind that quite a few Glasgow-Aberdeen services were operated by mk3 push pull sets from 1981.

So as of 2018 standards of comfort and quality on Scottish long distance routes will be returned to the levels reached 37 years beforehand, but using even earlier stock.

Brilliant, and I mean that as a tribute to mk3s rather than to be sarcastic.

 

[MatthewRead]

I was talking to my Dad about this earlier tonight, and it's funny how things come round.

Bear in mind that quite a few Glasgow-Aberdeen services were operated by mk3 push pull sets from 1981.

So as of 2018 standards of comfort and quality on Scottish long distance routes will be returned to the levels reached 37 years beforehand, but using even earlier stock.

Brilliant, and I mean that as a tribute to mk3s rather than to be sarcastic.

When did the Glasgow-Aberdeen push pull sets end?

 

[Clansman]

When did the Glasgow-Aberdeen push pull sets end?

Around '88 according to my father, where they were replaced with 156s and 150s (a pretty criminal decision), until the 158s came into service in Scotland in 1990.

 

[GrimShady]

Around '88 according to my father, where they were replaced with 156s and 150s (a pretty criminal decision), until the 158s came into service in Scotland in 1990.

I remember seeing 47/7 Mk2/Mk3 (must have bee Aberdeen) Push-Pulls as late as 91. They withdrew the MK3 E&G services in 90 if i remember correctly. The 158s were a complete disaster at first breaking down everywhere! It was so bad that 156s end up on the E&G services mixed with some 47/7 serivces featuring Intercity Mk3.

They were even using 150s on E&G at one point!

 

[hexagon789]

The last day of Class 47/7 push-pull services was the 12th May 1990. By this point sufficient 156s had been delivered to ScotRail for them to operate long-distance services with them in lieu of the 158s. In 1989 two of the 47/7s went south and in 1990 several M2s and 3s went south to be refurbished and repainted for use by InterCity, in return several Mk2fs and some Mk3s we're transferred to ScotRail leading to some very mixed rakes even on the E-G shuttles in the final months of Class 47/7 push-pull.

 

[me123]

Around '88 according to my father, where they were replaced with 156s and 150s (a pretty criminal decision), until the 158s came into service in Scotland in 1990.

hock:

To those who think that 170s are "inappropriate" for Aberdeen runs, just think what it must have been like in a 150! If it was 150s to the Central Belt when I lived up there, I'd choose to drive every single time.

 

[GrimShady]

hock:

To those who think that 170s are "inappropriate" for Aberdeen runs, just think what it must have been like in a 150! If it was 150s to the Central Belt when I lived up there, I'd choose to drive every single time.

A trip to Mallaig or Oban in a 156 is an equally rotten experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A trip to Mallaig or Oban in a 156 is an equally rotten experience.

Is it? On that kind of line fresh air is a bonus and the windows are massive.

158s will be nicer, but a 156 is fine.

 

[scotraildriver]

As of last week it has been decided that 158 will NOT be going onto the WHL in the near future due to running brake test requirements and the constant overheating of the 158's on the steeply graded borders route. Refurbished 156 will continue meantime.

 

[me123]

A trip to Mallaig or Oban in a 156 is an equally rotten experience.

156s are far better than 150s.

156s have 2+2 seating, with a mix of tables and airline-style seating. They have doors at the ends of the carriages, meaning that there's not too much heat lost at stations in cold weather (this is mitigated to an extent on 170s as the doors close automatically at the longer stops). They're actually quite comfortable.

150s tend to be in 3+2 seating (not sure if Scotrail's were?), and have a very much suburban layout.

Not that 156s are ideal for the Aberdeen-Central Belt runs, but they're significantly better than a 150. I might actually tolerate a 156 on such a run, even if I wouldn't relish the idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As of last week it has been decided that 158 will NOT be going onto the WHL in the near future due to running brake test requirements and the constant overheating of the 158's on the steeply graded borders route. Refurbished 156 will continue meantime.

I guess 156s are bombproof and go on forever

If they do end up permanently on the route a full refurb with new seats (as per the 158 ones) would be nice.

 

[GrimShady]

Is it? On that kind of line fresh air is a bonus and the windows are massive.

158s will be nicer, but a 156 is fine.

Fresh air is a bonus, very true. It is time for a change. Locals have had to suffer them for 25 years now. They are hated and always have been except by maybe 156 fans.

 

[GrimShady]

As of last week it has been decided that 158 will NOT be going onto the WHL in the near future due to running brake test requirements and the constant overheating of the 158's on the steeply graded borders route. Refurbished 156 will continue meantime.

I had a feeling that would happen!

Have they even had trials as yet?

 

[GrimShady]

156s are far better than 150s.

156s have 2+2 seating, with a mix of tables and airline-style seating. They have doors at the ends of the carriages, meaning that there's not too much heat lost at stations in cold weather (this is mitigated to an extent on 170s as the doors close automatically at the longer stops). They're actually quite comfortable.

150s tend to be in 3+2 seating (not sure if Scotrail's were?), and have a very much suburban layout.

Not that 156s are ideal for the Aberdeen-Central Belt runs, but they're significantly better than a 150. I might actually tolerate a 156 on such a run, even if I wouldn't relish the idea.

They were 3+2, Don't think ScotRail have any 150s anymore?

Could be worse though as Northern have some truly awful DMUs.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And are the 156 refurbs actually going anywhere progress wise? Im aware theres a lot of them but Iv yet to get one with the new cumfy seats/usb sockets. That, plus the 2020 mods will most likely make them acceptable but something better must come longterm!

 

[gsnedders]

As of last week it has been decided that 158 will NOT be going onto the WHL in the near future due to running brake test requirements and the constant overheating of the 158's on the steeply graded borders route. Refurbished 156 will continue meantime.

When does the franchise requirement to have "scenic stock" come into effect?

 

[edwin_m]

It takes a lot more power to start something moving from standstill than it does to keep it moving.

You're confusing power with tractive effort. It takes more power to keep something moving at a steady fast speed than to keep it moving slowly, because the resistance to motion is greater at higher speeds. Acceleration does require more power but isn't really relevant if the objective is to get over a summit without worrying how slowly.

Even with only one power car a HST has 2250 horse power, not much less than a class 47 which would have no problem taking nine coaches and a dead loco over the Highland line. But as the power car is relatively lightweight and geared for high speeds, its TE is quite low relative to other locomotives. Even the maximum it can sustain for a short period is less than a third of the continuous TE of the class 47. The TE is the force necessary to overcome both the resistance to motion and, if on an ascending gradient, the proportion of the train weight that is trying to drag the power car backwards. The result of trying to start with inadequate tractive effort will be wheelspin, roll-back, or possibly some sort of trip-our or even damage to the traction system.

The purpose of the quoted instruction is to ensure that the train starts climbing these gradients with enough speed that its momentum, plus the efforts of the remaining power car, will be enough to see it up the gradient.

 

[najaB]

You're confusing power with tractive effort.

I'm actually not - I meant power delivered to the rail aka tractive effort. Sloppily explained, I'll grant you.

 

[me123]

They were 3+2, Don't think ScotRail have any 150s anymore?

No, Scotrail don't. Sent them to Wales for the most part I think. Interestingly, when I was in Scotland I never travelled on a 150, yet down here I quite regularly travel on ex-Scotrail 150s (although they must have been refurbished - they're in a 2+2 seating layout now).

I'd definitely choose a drive down the A90 over a 150 with 3+2 seating between Aberdeen and Glasgow.

 

[route101]

And are the 156 refurbs actually going anywhere progress wise? Im aware theres a lot of them but Iv yet to get one with the new cumfy seats/usb sockets. That, plus the 2020 mods will most likely make them acceptable but something better must come longterm!

Im confused with this too . I was on one other day , 156 that had a new internal door yet existing green seats .
Other set had saltire seats . New PIS? Only difference was volume was louder when guard was speaking .

 

[ainsworth74]

At the risk of being a kill joy (hazard of this job I suppose ) might I remind everyone that this thread is for discussing Scotrail HST refurbishments not the future of 156s or 158s? Therefore please could any further posts on that topic either take place in an existing thread or, if a suitable one does not exist, please start a new thread.

Many thanks!

 

[47271]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143989

If it helps, Scotrail unit refurbishment details have just been posted on the thread shown above.

 

[jayah]

A close friend of mine came across a set of documents lying on the table in a staff bothy regarding in-depth details of the refurbishment plan for the Scotrail HST fleet.
I can't find any released PDFs online nor on this forum, so I've started this thread dedicated to the Scotrail HST arrival and refurbishment.

Here's the details within the documents which I've taken the time to type up, and I've have attached the images from them which contain renders, seating plans, and statistics charts;

206 standard class seats? Do they ever learn? Its like a 3 car 158 but with slightly less standard class seating capacity. A 3/4 coach of First Class with a buffet? Total madness. Have the diagrams been worked around various politicians daily commute?

They are spending a fortune on these things and have got the maths totally wrong.

 

[GusB]

Having had another look at the original post, I note that they're putting the cycle spaces in one of the trailers. Is there enough space for bikes in the guards' compartments in the power cars, or would this cause issues with platform lengths?

Did these compartments ever see any use after the introduction of the TGS?

 

[BestWestern]

Having had another look at the original post, I note that they're putting the cycle spaces in one of the trailers. Is there enough space for bikes in the guards' compartments in the power cars, or would this cause issues with platform lengths?

Did these compartments ever see any use after the introduction of the TGS?

There is custom-built racking for three cycles in every GWR/FGW power car. They tend not see a great deal of use, only because of potential delay minutes incurred by opening them up at intermediate stations, and because the TGS has space for six. If the whole lot was used, a current GWR HST could take 12 cycles.

 

[BestWestern]

206 standard class seats? Do they ever learn? Its like a 3 car 158 but with slightly less standard class seating capacity. A 3/4 coach of First Class with a buffet? Total madness. Have the diagrams been worked around various politicians daily commute?

They are spending a fortune on these things and have got the maths totally wrong.

It seems the people responsible for Voyagers are still at work, then!

I must admit, I'm baffled as to why Scotrail have felt it necessary to design their own interior spec from scratch. The fleet currently includes well designed coaches with mini buffet facilities and a healthy standard class seating capacity, a 'composite' design with half First and half standard, a wheelchair accessible toilet vehicle, and the TGS Guards' van with cycle space. The above would have made a perfectly adequate four coach set, with just some tweaks for the toilet mods, sliding doors and an internal refurb into Saltire. The proposed plans seem needlessly expensive.

 

[GusB]

There is custom-built racking for three cycles in every GWR/FGW power car. They tend not see a great deal of use, only because of potential delay minutes incurred by opening them up at intermediate stations, and because the TGS has space for six. If the whole lot was used, a current GWR HST could take 12 cycles.

Ah, that's interesting. I hadn't realised that the power cars already had racks. So, potentially useful for end-to-end journeys. If the Scotrail HSTs are coming from GWR, are these likely to be retained?

 

[47271]

206 standard class seats? Do they ever learn? Its like a 3 car 158 but with slightly less standard class seating capacity. A 3/4 coach of First Class with a buffet? Total madness. Have the diagrams been worked around various politicians daily commute?

They are spending a fortune on these things and have got the maths totally wrong.

Others may have different stories, but as a matter of fact I've never seen an MSP in anything other than Standard Class!

Knowing the seating capacity pinchpoints on existing Scotrail express services very well, I don't think that excessive provision of First Class is likely to be the problem with these trains, it's rather going to be inappropriate use of four coach sets.

No doubt the idea will be to have diagrams that keep the short trains away from busy services - a lot of 170s run on the Highland Main Line now with plenty of empty seats throughout - but knowing how many Standard Class only units turn up on the route at the moment, I fear that this plan for the four car units will break down very quickly.

I don't have a problem with the amount of First they're putting in so long as they sell it at competitive prices, and we need to dispel the old myth that it's a waste of space and only for fatcat politicians, look how busy it is on VTEC all the time with all sorts of people happy to pay a bit more. I travel First a lot with work because it gives me extra space, but I'd never burn money on it with the present set up in Scotrail's 170s.

The Scotrail HSTs should be sold in such a way that First and Standard are uniformly loaded at their own price points, and they really will have got their maths wrong if they don't do this.

Let's see, but I bet it won't be long before I'm getting on an overcrowded mid Friday afternoon Queen Street to Inverness train, and it'll be overcrowded because the only set they could find was a short one...

 

[JohnR]

Ah, that's interesting. I hadn't realised that the power cars already had racks. So, potentially useful for end-to-end journeys. If the Scotrail HSTs are coming from GWR, are these likely to be retained?

Yes, but there appears to be much more limited cycle capacity for internediate journeys. Disappointing.