ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Macwomble]

Acceleration out of Inverness unlikely to be a problem especially as Inverness - Edinburgh / Glasgow likely to be the 2 + 4s.

Think a hasty rethink on that needed.

 

[TheEscapist_]

2x 158 currently run to INV from EDB and they can sometimes be very very busy. Only 4 coaches will be a disaster especially at weekend and the summer.


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[ld0595]

2x 158 currently run to INV from EDB and they can sometimes be very very busy. Only 4 coaches will be a disaster especially at weekend and the summer.


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I read on the Scot-rail group a while back that the plan for the Inverness services was mainly 2+5 with the majority of Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen and Aberdeen - Inverness being 2+4. Combine that with the increase in frequency to 1tph from Perth and I'd say that's perfect even in the summer months.

I'm looking forward to seeing the slides and anything else from he talk tonight. I wish I could've gone but sadly I had too much on!

 

[Clansman]

2x 158 currently run to INV from EDB and they can sometimes be very very busy. Only 4 coaches will be a disaster especially at weekend and the summer.

Inverness southbound services in particular seem to be absolutely heaving most of the time. A good few services from Inverness to Glasgow/Edinburgh seem to be formed of doubled up 158s and 170s - of which the latter rarely has first class on these services. Desperate times trying to find the capacity for Inverness; let's just hope Scotrail can pull through before the long awaited HSTs arrive.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well in theory this is the last summer season for the 170s but in practice I suspect 2018 as the entry date to service may slip a little.

If I were Scotrail Id be delaying putting 158s on West Highlamd amd as they are freed up by 170 cascades brought on by 385s make all Edinburgh/Glasgow to Imvermess 4 car 158s as these can at least keep time, have better standing room and are being refurbished. The faster ones with less stops could even become 6 coaches.

The 170s could be consentrated on Fife and other routes that currently see regular 158 opperation.

 

[Altnabreac]

Well in theory this is the last summer season for the 170s but in practice I suspect 2018 as the entry date to service may slip a little.

If I were Scotrail Id be delaying putting 158s on West Highlamd amd as they are freed up by 170 cascades brought on by 385s make all Edinburgh/Glasgow to Imvermess 4 car 158s as these can at least keep time, have better standing room and are being refurbished. The faster ones with less stops could even become 6 coaches.

The 170s could be consentrated on Fife and other routes that currently see regular 158 opperation.

The talk suggested introduction will be in 3 phases:
May 2018,
December 2018 and
May 2019.

From memory it will be Edinburgh - Aberdeen first then Inverness services and finally Glasgow - Aberdeen in May 2019.

I'm fairly sure it was suggested 2+4s on the Inverness services last night. Presumably the extra frequency will help manage demand. They did mention it will be pretty flexible to move the 2+4s and 2+5s around depending on demand.

The only restriction will be that Perth will be unable to service 2+5s intially until the new depot is built (circa 2021-22). Perth will be able to stable 2+5s.

But any diagrams which require servicing in Perth will initially have to be operated by 2+4s.

 

[jingsmonty]

Well in theory this is the last summer season for the 170s but in practice I suspect 2018 as the entry date to service may slip a little.

If I were Scotrail Id be delaying putting 158s on West Highlamd amd as they are freed up by 170 cascades brought on by 385s make all Edinburgh/Glasgow to Imvermess 4 car 158s as these can at least keep time, have better standing room and are being refurbished. The faster ones with less stops could even become 6 coaches.

The 170s could be consentrated on Fife and other routes that currently see regular 158 opperation.

Some 170s are better climbing up to drumochter than 4car 158s..far better coach ambience than 158 as well (if only the 158s dreadful aircon/heating had been sorted, oh well...).

Can't wait to see hst (despite me grinding an axe re: grammer seating), performance-wise sjlhould be a big improvement.

Big big issues with staff training though-hst is,basically,loco hauled stock (as far as the braking system goes anyway), so a big change and a probable 3 week training course for all drivers - I only mentioned 180s as they are dmu stock we would only need a conversion course - I like them, although no one else seems to!!

 

[47271]

HML loadings aren't that consistently high. Summer yes, and the middle of the day yes, but early and late a 3-car 170 is more than enough. Say the 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh or the 1811 Queen Street-Inverness have masses of empty seats north of Perth. A four coach HST would have nothing to worry about.

We have to trust that they'll be able to plan capacity to match demand.

 

[BestWestern]

I had my first experience on GWR HSTs this week (one refurbished, one not) and have to agree with this. Compared to the EMT and VTEC HSTs I have been on in the past it was a superbly smooth journey in very well done accommodation.

GWR/FGW don't have any non-refurbished HSTs - unless you mean that you had a ride on the solitary retrimmed green set? It's the same as all the others, just with different colours!

 

[Blindtraveler]

I must admit to liking the 180s but doubt theyd be reliable on the Highland routes.

When the HST's finally fall to bits my guess is that refurbished and reconfigured voyagers will end up on the Scottish express work.

If speculation on staff training is correct I hope Scotrail have planned for this, no punter on any line is going to take kindly to a cansilation due to staff training but I fear we will see such a thing.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

Sorry if this is majorly off topic or a bad question or mentioned elsewhere on the thread

anyone know of any arrangements or so for any thunderbird locos incase of a failure? (like what virgin/east coast had with the 57 and 67's)

 

[jingsmonty]

Sorry if this is majorly off topic or a bad question or mentioned elsewhere on the thread

anyone know of any arrangements or so for any thunderbird locos incase of a failure? (like what virgin/east coast had with the 57 and 67's)

Pass! Think they will hope that a refurbishment of the power cars will make them reliable enough..we will see. Any Thunderbird loco will have to be from another company (which is probably what happened on Virgin/East coast anyway..) as Scotrail drivers have zero Loco traction as of now (although Queen St had 67s until Serco took over the Caledonian Sleeper).

Personally, I think I'd rather nurse an HST with a sick power car home than faff about with the emergency coupler..looks like a recipie for nipped fingers!! There was a local instruction prohibiting HSTs on 1 power car climbing to Drumochter, but this didn't apply to MTU engined PC's as far as I know - also was for 8/9 coach hst.

 

[jingsmonty]

I must admit to liking the 180s but doubt theyd be reliable on the Highland routes.

When the HST's finally fall to bits my guess is that refurbished and reconfigured voyagers will end up on the Scottish express work.

If speculation on staff training is correct I hope Scotrail have planned for this, no punter on any line is going to take kindly to a cansilation due to staff training but I fear we will see such a thing.

Did I read somewhere that there was a proposal to run voyager timings on the HML a few years ago? Long superceded by the HST plan, would like to know when the HML infrastructure improvements will happen - if ever. There is barely room enough for the trains that run just now. Suspect that HSTs will arrive and slot into the current timetable, or something close to it.

Will miss the comfy, correctly pitched seats on the 170s - ready to assume the crash position on a Grammer seat on HSTs!

 

[Clansman]

Did I read somewhere that there was a proposal to run voyager timings on the HML a few years ago? Long superceded by the HST plan, would like to know when the HML infrastructure improvements will happen - if ever. There is barely room enough for the trains that run just now. Suspect that HSTs will arrive and slot into the current timetable, or something close to it.

Will miss the comfy, correctly pitched seats on the 170s - ready to assume the crash position on a Grammer seat on HSTs!

There was a news paper article a couple of years ago of which the author suggested using tilting trains "such as Voyagers".

But Voyagers to Scotrail will never happen so, you're looking at a new build rolling stock for when the HSTs are up for replacement.

EDIT: Here's the article

 

[najaB]

[A]nyone know of any arrangements or so for any thunderbird locos incase of a failure? (like what virgin/east coast had with the 57 and 67's)

My guess is that they aren't going to have any dedicated Thunderbirds - since the rakes are short , the set can make it home on one PC and they can call in assistance in the unlikely event that both PCs are unusable.

 

[jopsuk]

aren't Thunderbirds more of an electric trains thing?

 

[najaB]

aren't Thunderbirds more of an electric trains thing?

Inasmuch as the most heavily utilised lines tend to be electrified, yes. But diesel trains can break down as well.

 

[43096]

There was a local instruction prohibiting HSTs on 1 power car climbing to Drumochter, but this didn't apply to MTU engined PC's as far as I know - also was for 8/9 coach hst.

Why would that not apply to an MTU powered HST?

 

[najaB]

...would like to know when the HML infrastructure improvements will happen - if ever. There is barely room enough for the trains that run just now.

Suspect that HSTs will arrive and slot into the current timetable, or something close to it.

IIRC, prep work starts after Edinburgh to Dundee is wired, main work is after Dundee to Aberdeen is done.

As to the timetable, HSTs provide enough extra grunt to move to a near-clockface timetable between Inverness and the south without any infrastructure upgrades.

 

[jingsmonty]

IIRC, prep work starts after Edinburgh to Dundee is wired, main work is after Dundee to Aberdeen is done.

As to the timetable, HSTs provide enough extra grunt to move to a near-clockface timetable between Inverness and the south without any infrastructure upgrades.

I'll believe that when I see it! Was told at 1 of the employee roadshows that Abellio ran for staff before they took over the franchise that 'the infrastructure improvements on HML would be in tandem with HST introduction & be ready at the same time'...seriously doubt that!

 

[jingsmonty]

Why would that not apply to an MTU powered HST?

That's what the sectional appendix says, not entirely sure why - don't think it's specifically an exception for MTU power cars, it's a prohibition for non re-engined hst in general. I'd have to have a look.

Also, wonder if there will be a local instruction re differential speed boards - there are a good few 'sp' speed boards on hml which hst can't use just now. Ability to do near line speed up gradients would more than compensate for that though, I'm sure - would make sense for Scotrail hst to make use of the higher speeds as well though

 

[hexagon789]

From the Scotland Sectional Appendix
NOTES:
# This arrangement is NOT permitted between Dalwhinnie and Drumochter SummitCLASS 253/254 (HST) - WORKING ON ONE ENGINE
ONLY
The following supplements train company working instructions when a train is to proceed on Scotland Route lines with
only one power car available for traction:
1. Lines over which assistance must be provided under certain conditions
• Blair Atholl and Dalwhinnie in either direction.
• Aviemore to Inverness in either direction.
• Aberdeen to Edinburgh
• Such assistance maybe provided throughout between Perth and Inverness
If any of the following circumstances apply in respect of the above sections assistance must be provided.
1. the train comprises of more than 10 trailer vehicles
2. the working power car is NOT 433xx or 432xx
3. rail head conditions in the area concerned are reported as poor, for example during falling snow, severe
frost, drizzle and poor leaf fall adhesion days.
4. other technical problems exist with the train to which the driver or the train operator’s Fleet Controller will
draw attention.
5. signalling equipment failures or temporary/emergency speed restrictions exist in the section preventing
an unchecked run being made on a rising gradient.
2. Authority to proceed unassisted over the lines listed above.
For trains comprising not more than 10 trailer vehicles, an “HST” (MTU Powered) Authority to Proceed Unassisted”
Clarification should be sought from the signaller and driver regarding any adverse conditions.
a) Route Control must obtain the permission of the appropriate train operator’s Fleet Controller.
b) Route Control must ascertain that local weather conditions are suitable, and arrange (as far as is
practicable) with the controlling Signaller for a “clear run” to be provided as indicated below:
c) Train Operator’s Person-in-Charge, under the instructions of Route Control
• Driver to be issued with Special not to stop order at Newtonmore, if departing Inverness.
• If the train which is overpowered is capable of being driven from the cab which will become leading,
arrangements may be made to return the train to a location in rear as instructed by the Signaller. The
line must be considered blocked and the wrong direction movement must be authorised and conducted
in accordance with Rule Book Module TW7. #
3. If unassisted HST stops in section
If an unassisted HST stops within the section through which a clear run had been agreed, the following arrangements apply:-
• The Driver must not attempt to re-start the train against the gradient.
• Driver must request permission from the signaller to change ends and return to:
a) Inverness and Moy: Must return to Inverness.
b) Tomatin and Slochd: Must return to Tomatin.
• In the event the train stops and can’t restart between Newtonmore and Inchlea, the train must return to Kingussie.
In the event of the train being brought to a stand between Dalwhinnie and Drumochter Summit, the train must be secured and assistance requested.

From this it wouldn't appear that non-MTU HSTs are not permitted on one engine, just the the instructions have been updated to reflect the fact that HSTs using the route are most likely to have MTU engines. Besides which VTEC have two VP185 engined power cars which I have seen operate the Chieftain on more than one occasion, though with both engines functioning. it would seem likely VTEC would try to keep this set of the GNL if it couldn't operate their with only one engine working.

 

[BRX]

Why the rule that they aren't allowed to attempt a re-start?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why the rule that they aren't allowed to attempt a re-start?

Rail damage from wheel spinning?

 

[najaB]

Why the rule that they aren't allowed to attempt a re-start?

It takes a lot more power to start something moving from standstill than it does to keep it moving.

 

[59CosG95]

Besides which VTEC have two VP185 engined power cars which I have seen operate the Chieftain on more than one occasion, though with both engines functioning. it would seem likely VTEC would try to keep this set of the GNL if it couldn't operate their with only one engine working.

Would those be the 2 hired in from EMT? They swap around with the EMT fleet every so often, and would probably be re-engined and renumbered in the unlikely event that they became a permanent fixture of the VTEC fleet.

 

[BRX]

It takes a lot more power to start something moving from standstill than it does to keep it moving.

I know, just wondering what the harm would be in attempting it. Perhaps wheel slipping like suggested above.

 

[najaB]

I know, just wondering what the harm would be in attempting it.

They've probably worked out that there's a serious risk of blowing the good power car.

 

[GrimShady]

There was a news paper article a couple of years ago of which the author suggested using tilting trains "such as Voyagers".

But Voyagers to Scotrail will never happen so, you're looking at a new build rolling stock for when the HSTs are up for replacement.

EDIT: Here's the article

Oh please no! Not Voyagers

 

[jopsuk]

Oh please no! Not Voyagers

I'd be confident that the HSTs when the time comes will be replaced with new build stock.

But then I never saw the HSTs plan coming, and nor did I see the TPE loco-hauled order coming. God there's some odd stuff goes on!