ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

swt_passenger

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I thought the GWR short sets had been replaced by an additional order for IEP?
AIUI there's been two separate issues going on. The initial extra IEPs (the first part of the 802 orders) replace the X number of normal length HSTs that were originally going to be kept for the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route.

There has since been another cunning plan to produce a batch of shortened HSTs for use on routes within the west country to overcome the medium term problems with DMU cascades.
 
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Clansman

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The Daily Record wrote an article on their take on the HSTs...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotrails-new-fleet-trains-old-9389369

ScotRail are about to introduce trains that are so old, the engine has been on display in a museum.

A fleet of 40-year-old diesel high-speed engines are due to start operating in 2018 in a bid to increase passenger capacity. They will be the oldest trains in ScotRail’s stock .

The InterCity 125 is used by Great Western Railway in England but is being replaced with electric stock.

One of the first made went on display at the National Railway Museum in York in October to mark its 40th anniversary.

Scottish ministers promised a “rail revolution” when they awarded Dutch operators Abellio the contract to run Scotland’s trains.

But Abellio now risk being stripped of their £7billion, 10-year contract if delays and cancellations get worse .

The firm have vowed to improve the capacity and frequency of services by introducing 70 electric trains on the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line and other key routes by next autumn.

A fleet of 26 InterCity 125 trains will come into service in 2018 on routes from Glasgow and Edinburgh to Inverness and Aberdeen. The trains were first introduced in 1976.

Before going into service in Scotland under a 12-year lease, they will get new seats, tables, carpets, better lighting and wifi and power sockets.

Gordon Martin, Scottish organiser of the Rail, Maritime and Transport Union, said: “Bringing in 40-year-old rolling stock may be a short-term solution.

“But at a time when maintenance fitter jobs are being cut, it’s a potential recipe for disaster if they’re not maintained to the proper standard.”

Scottish Labour transport spokesman Neil Bibby said services on the routes had been in desperate need of an upgrade for years.

He said: “I hope these refurbished trains provide that necessary improvement. But many passengers are demanding improvements within weeks, not months.”

The Sunday Mail is demanding a fairer deal for rail passengers and last week ScotRail published a 249-point plan for improving performance.

It followed the Sunday Mail quizzing Transport Minister Humza Yousaf over Abellio’s dismal service which has angered commuters.

More than 20,000 people have signed a petition calling for the Abellio contract to be binned unless train services improve.

A ScotRail Alliance spokeswoman said refurbishing the high-speed train fleet will cost £54million.

She added: “It will transform long-distance rail travel in Scotland by providing more seats and a much improved on-board environment.”

Transport Scotland said: “Re-engineering rolling stock of the quality of high speed trains is a proven means of delivering top-class trains in a sustainable and efficient manner.

“We are confident passengers will enjoy travelling on these extensively renewed trains.”
"New seats and tables" - lol, wait till they find out most are just recycled rubbish from the GWR ones which have been in place for around 10 years...
 

fgwrich

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The Daily Record wrote an article on their take on the HSTs...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotrails-new-fleet-trains-old-9389369



"New seats and tables" - lol, wait till they find out most are just recycled rubbish from the GWR ones which have been in place for around 10 years...
I wouldn't describe the FGW Dynamic Lines refurb sets as recycled rubbish. Aside from the GWR set, the FGW interiors are still in very good condition and perfectly suitable with the right light refurbishment for services with ScotRail. And besides, ScotRail hardly class the first class interiors as 'recycled rubbish' if the majority of it including the carpet is to stay!

Nice to see the sticking point for the media is as usual their age. One of Paul Cliftons most annoying hooks about them, despite the fact they are still highly regarded as the best Intercity type train around.
 

Clansman

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I wouldn't describe the FGW Dynamic Lines refurb sets as recycled rubbish. Aside from the GWR set, the FGW interiors are still in very good condition and perfectly suitable with the right light refurbishment for services with ScotRail. And besides, ScotRail hardly class the first class interiors as 'recycled rubbish' if the majority of it including the carpet is to stay!

Nice to see the sticking point for the media is as usual their age. One of Paul Cliftons most annoying hooks about them, despite the fact they are still highly regarded as the best Intercity type train around.
I was more exagerrating on the basis that the seats and tables will be unchanged, contrary to vaiours media sources stating that these will be brand spanking new. Just more so thinking that Scotrail could've used larger tables in standard class (as used on XC and VTEC HSTs) as opposed to the small curved ones on GWR (and EMT) HSTs.

As for first class, I wouldn't class them as recycled rubbish. Recycled in the basis that it's being re-used on Scotrail, but again I was exagerrating the point. I've not tried the GWR first class before so I'm very much looking forward to getting a wee shot when they come up here.
 

QueensCurve

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The Daily Record wrote an article on their take on the HSTs...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotrails-new-fleet-trains-old-9389369



"New seats and tables" - lol, wait till they find out most are just recycled rubbish from the GWR ones which have been in place for around 10 years...
The tables are tiny and scarcely fit for purpose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The HSTs will be running limited-stop services so the acceleration is less of an issue. Plus, have you been on a 170 recently? Treacle accelerates faster on a winter day.

Edit: As an aside, I was on a VTEC HST with a failed power car that only lost 20 minutes between Dundee and Kings Cross.
In the 1980s the delays with one poer car failed used to be enormous. They the set was then limited to 100mph. Is that no longer the case?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It'll be interesting to see which option is adopted. Nearly 500hp per car is still quite hefty, and Scotrail may wish to reduce maintenance costs by using only one PC at a time in normal service.
This is really disappointing considering the hype around using HSTs when thefanchisse ws renewed.
 
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najaB

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In the 1980s the delays with one poer car failed used to be enormous. They the set was then limited to 100mph. Is that no longer the case?
I don't believe so - pretty sure that the one I was on exceeded 100mph, though it took ages to get there.
 
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D6975

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I don't believe so - pretty sure that the one I was on exceeded 100mph, though it took ages to get there.
Earlier this year I was on a HST from Padd to Bristol TM when the front power car burst on departure from Padd. The journey to TM took an extra 20 mins.
 

43096

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Nice to see the sticking point for the media is as usual their age. One of Paul Cliftons most annoying hooks about them, despite the fact they are still highly regarded as the best Intercity type train around.
To directly quote from the plate on 43048: "The HST remains the standard by which other trains are judged." It might have added "And everything else in the last 30 years has been found wanting."
 

fgwrich

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Nor would I decribe the standard class tables as tiny and unfit for purpose. The fold down ones have the extenders fitted, while the standard class ones are modern enough and fit for purpose. E.g. Here is a TS I travelled in yesterday. Given a light Scotrail refresh and it'll be fit for purpose for another good few years to come!
 

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Clansman

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Nor would I decribe the standard class tables as tiny and unfit for purpose. The fold down ones have the extenders fitted, while the standard class ones are modern enough and fit for purpose. E.g. Here is a TS I travelled in yesterday. Given a light Scotrail refresh and it'll be fit for purpose for another good few years to come!
On the subject of the standard class tables, they could be bigger (excluding the fold down ones which are actually quite good). As long as the legroom at full tables is the same as those on VTEC and XC then you can easily have a bigger table, instead of that thin curved design. Looking at the photos the Gramamr seats do make it looked very cramped and claustrophobic but given the fact that it's high density on GWR, then it may look less spaces with the lower density layout with more table bays. But judging by the seating plan, the tables don't really sit at regular intervals (if that makes sense) so sitting at an airline seat would feel quite cramed in my opinion...but that remains to be seen.
 

47271

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Completely agree. It'll come with quite a shock to passengers when the IEPs arrive. You've never had it so good comes to mind.
It's a long time since I've been on Great Western, but I agree that looks most inviting.

So the next headline in the dismal Scottish media will be: 'NEW SCOTRAIL TRAINS FITTED OUT TO SUIT FIRST CLASS FAT CATS'.
 

Northhighland

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It's a long time since I've been on Great Western, but I agree that looks most inviting.

So the next headline in the dismal Scottish media will be: 'NEW SCOTRAIL TRAINS FITTED OUT TO SUIT FIRST CLASS FAT CATS'.
No, as long as they paint a Saltire on them and a Gaelic slogan everything will be fine.
 

ScotTrains

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So the next headline in the dismal Scottish media will be: 'NEW SCOTRAIL TRAINS FITTED OUT TO SUIT FIRST CLASS FAT CATS'.
Scotrail are introducing £7.50 1st class fares so it'll not just be fat cats travelling in 1st!

Scotrail 1st class really needs a revamp. It's currently pathetic compared to VTEC (who also run on the INV and ABD routes). Hopefully a proper 1st class environment, complimentary hot food, complimentary snacks from station ToGo kiosks, lounge access and cheaper advanced fares should help encourage people to use 1st class. On many trains 1st class is empty (bar me). If they get it right I'll certainly be travelling a lot more with Scotrail.
 

scotraildriver

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nor would i decribe the standard class tables as tiny and unfit for purpose. The fold down ones have the extenders fitted, while the standard class ones are modern enough and fit for purpose. E.g. Here is a ts i travelled in yesterday. Given a light scotrail refresh and it'll be fit for purpose for another good few years to come!
Looks familiar. Will passengers even notice a difference?



fgw.jpg

scotrail158.jpg
 

irish_rail

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Seems daft that 5 hour London to Penzance journeys in future will have to be made on a commuter iep, whilst HST stock gets moved upto Scotland for generally much shorter inter regional journeys. I guess the longest trip would be say Glasgow to Inverness???

Send shiny new IEP to Scotland and we will keep our HSTs please :D
 

Bletchleyite

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Seems daft that 5 hour London to Penzance journeys in future will have to be made on a commuter iep, whilst HST stock gets moved upto Scotland for generally much shorter inter regional journeys. I guess the longest trip would be say Glasgow to Inverness???

Send shiny new IEP to Scotland and we will keep our HSTs please :D
IEP are not commuter trains. Where did you get that idea?
 

43096

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That was my thought as well - when did the Intercity Express Program result in producing a commuter train?
Since it was spec'd by DfT. The only thing that matters on GW to civil servants is the Thames Valley, because that's where some of them live.
 

NotATrainspott

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Also, the IEP won't be heading to Cornwall. The IEP only covers the shorter-distance GWML express services which run through Didcot. The trains ordered to replace the HSTs on West Country services are based off the same basic design but they will have interiors more suited for long distance InterCity work.
 

najaB

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Since it was spec'd by DfT. The only thing that matters on GW to civil servants is the Thames Valley, because that's where some of them live.
I thought when the DfT set out the specifications for a commuter train you ended up with a Class 700. Guess I imagined that one.
 

irish_rail

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Also, the IEP won't be heading to Cornwall. The IEP only covers the shorter-distance GWML express services which run through Didcot. The trains ordered to replace the HSTs on West Country services are based off the same basic design but they will have interiors more suited for long distance InterCity work.
That's not what we've been told. AT300s will be very similar internally apparently.

The more people I speak to at work who have actually been inside the IEP the more the grim reality is starting to hit. From the public point of view uncomfortable seating, which despite what the railway press has said, does NOT have much legroom for those over 6ft. From a driving perspective, it is clear those of us used to the comfort of driving a HST will be disappointed with such basic human needs as the ability to cross ones legs whilst driving taken away due to a lack of space in the footwell.

Im sure these trains will be fine for padd- Bristol and Oxford, however, im yet to be convinced of how well received they will be on longer routes....
 

Clansman

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TPE have the right idea and went with the Mk5s, for some of their routes at least...
 
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Bletchleyite

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TPE have the right idea and went with the Mk5s, for some of their routes at least...
Yet I think the 26m IEPs may offer a higher level of comfort than the 22m hauled coaches!

I think in the context the Mk5s were the right choice, but I think we're past the point of "LHCS comfortable, DMUs and EMUs not" now. Indeed, the interior images for the 23m CAF EMUs for the WCML look very nice indeed.
 

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