ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[nat67]

HA08.

Thanks for that Chief

 

[iain789]

Does anyone know what happened to 1H13, the 1438 Queen St to Elgin this afternoon? It was a 'classic' HST with a Scotrail liveried power car, and I saw it limping in to Bishopbriggs over an hour late. It seems from RTT that the rest of the service was cancelled "due to a problem with the train".

 

[Highlandspring]

Does anyone know what happened to 1H13, the 1438 Queen St to Elgin this afternoon? It was a 'classic' HST with a Scotrail liveried power car, and I saw it limping in to Bishopbriggs over an hour late. It seems from RTT that the rest of the service was cancelled "due to a problem with the train".

Powercar fault, only attaining 3mph up Cowlairs incline...

 

[Stoney1979]

Powercar fault, only attaining 3mph up Cowlairs incline...

Is that the front power car failing? And, in that instance, can't the rear one be kicked in to take over?

This was discussed to a degree a couple of weeks ago, but I don't yet fully understand why, if one power car fails, the other one (assuming it's working of course) can't ensure the service runs, albeit likely at a slower speed. Excuse my ongoing ignorance, just trying to understand.

 

[najaB]

Powercar fault, only attaining 3mph up Cowlairs incline...

I would've thought one powercar would be able to get up the tunnel at more than a walking pace - or was it one dead and one dying?

 

[najaB]

Is that the front power car failing? And, in that instance, can't the rear one be kicked in to take over?

Both power cars are normally running.

This was discussed to a degree a couple of weeks ago, but I don't yet fully understand why, if one power car fails, the other one (assuming it's working of course) can't ensure the service runs, albeit likely at a slower speed. Excuse my ongoing ignorance, just trying to understand.

A 9+2 HST can hit (though not necessarily maintain) 125mph - it just takes a long time to get there. I've been on East Coast (as it was at the time) HST that lost use of a power car shortly after Edinburgh (it had obviously not been well on leaving Dundee). We got to Kings Cross only slightly less than 30 minutes late (so not even Delay Repay).

 

[Stoney1979]

Both power cars are normally running.
A 9+2 HST can hit (though not necessarily maintain) 125mph - it just takes a long time to get there. I've been on East Coast (as it was at the time) HST that lost use of a power car shortly after Edinburgh (it had obviously not been well on leaving Dundee). We got to Kings Cross only slightly less than 30 minutes late (so not even Delay Repay).

My understanding of the earlier discussion is that, normally and all being well, the front power car does the hauling, while the rear one is effectively a power generator for the rest of the train.

That's why I'm wondering if the rear one can (or can't) be called into providing traction, if required.

 

[scotraildriver]

Is that the front power car failing? And, in that instance, can't the rear one be kicked in to take over?

This was discussed to a degree a couple of weeks ago, but I don't yet fully understand why, if one power car fails, the other one (assuming it's working of course) can't ensure the service runs, albeit likely at a slower speed. Excuse my ongoing ignorance, just trying to understand.

Today's failure was a power fault which affected both power cars. Neither was producing the required amps but was running ok in the other direction, so possibly a fault with power controller/system in the lead power car which controls both cars.

 

[Stoney1979]

Today's failure was a power fault which affected both power cars. Neither was producing the required amps but was running ok in the other direction, so possibly a fault with power controller/system in the lead power car which controls both cars.

Thanks, very interesting.

 

[iain789]

Thanks, very interesting.

Yes, and thanks also to Highlandspring for answering my original question.

 

[43096]

My understanding of the earlier discussion is that, normally and all being well, the front power car does the hauling, while the rear one is effectively a power generator for the rest of the train.

That's why I'm wondering if the rear one can (or can't) be called into providing traction, if required.

You’ve asked this before and had it explained, yet you still don’t understand. Sometimes I wonder why I bother....

To repeat: “Slightly more from the front power car normally as the rear one is normally providing electric supply (for heating, lighting, catering etc) as well as providing traction power.”

 

[Stoney1979]

You’ve asked this before and had it explained, yet you still don’t understand. Sometimes I wonder why I bother....

To repeat: “Slightly more from the front power car normally as the rear one is normally providing electric supply (for heating, lighting, catering etc) as well as providing traction power.”

OK, point taken, I've not it now. Thanks.

 

[GrimShady]

Article on the Scotsman stating "ScotRail chiefs have privately conceded they will not all be ready in time."

It is the Scotsman however they may be right for the first time ever.

 

[47271]

Here's the piece:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...-train-shortage-as-upgrades-delayed-1-4898751

The point being made (and sorry, there are so many ads and other fiddle fiddle on the page that I can't copy the text easily where I am) is that Scotrail will have a stock crisis by the end of the year if enough PRM modified sets aren't available by the deadline. A comparison is drawn with the temporary use of 365s to cover for late 385s, and how this might have to be done for the HSTs.

Of course Dalton being Dalton he fails to reflect on the fact that there's already a stock crisis caused by the low availability of HSTs, or that one line that the operator should be taking is an extension of the deadline, or quite what alternative stock might be available to help solve the problem if the classic sets are forced off the road.

 

[BRX]

It's hardly news is it! All of this has been known for some time and was spelt out in Scotrail's remedial plan published more than a month ago.

 

[47271]

It's hardly news is it! All of this has been known for some time and was spelt out in Scotrail's remedial plan published more than a month ago.

He he, that's what they should print under The Scotsman's masthead each day. 'It's hardly news is it!'

 

[Struner]

 

[Mag_seven]

ScotRail liveried 43183 and 43150 plus a small rake of FGW liveried coaches have just passed through York en route to Dundee from Ely.

 

[Steven_G]

Went GlaQS high level to Edinburgh yesterday and I was amazed at the amount on sets in depots.

1 in Cowlairs and 5 in Haymarket. All in various livery and with/without both power cars.

All these sets idle because of driver/guard shortage ?

On the positive saw one of the refurb sets leave Waverley. Nice to see and listened out for the rear power car at fixed revs (thanks for that inside on it’s power generation)

 

[Cashew]

I am fed hearing about classic sets, they are not going to save Scotrail's reputation. What many us want to know is when sets 4 and 5 are going to be ready and will they be put into service straight away or are they going to be used for training purposes for a number of weeks, like sets 2 and 3 have been. Surely Scotrail could do on the job training and get these sets earning some much needed revenue and help restore Scotrail's reputation.

 

[Stoney1979]

Was at Pitlochry today dropping off a relative on the 1432 to Edinburgh - only to see an empty Classic sail through ca. 15 mins before, presumably on a training run. In the event the service train was a 170, with no reservations as it should have been an HST.....

 

[Northhighland]

ScotRail liveried 43183 and 43150 plus a small rake of FGW liveried coaches have just passed through York en route to Dundee from Ely.

Seem to have plenty stock it seems Scotrail can’t get the trains out in service with the right staff. It also looks like reliability is an issue I that because they have been idle for a period? For those operating them is that a fair comment or a bit harsh?

 

[chuff chuff]

Seem to have plenty stock it seems Scotrail can’t get the trains out in service with the right staff. It also looks like reliability is an issue I that because they have been idle for a period? For those operating them is that a fair comment or a bit harsh?

You have to bare in mind that these things are 'new' not only to traincrew but the maintenance side as well many who not have seen anything like it.Add to that that GWR fleet didn’t seem the greatest in the first place.

 

[Steven_G]

I can’t understand how long this training is taking. 3 months since it all arrived and there isn’t many reports of increased HST activity.

I appreciate it’s difficult with train and driver/guard diagrams but still it just feels odd.

Are some of these idle sets not fit enough for use? Or the HST reliability works deemed necessary before more sets work?

 

[Stoney1979]

I can’t understand how long this training is taking. 3 months since it all arrived and there isn’t many reports of increased HST activity.

I appreciate it’s difficult with train and driver/guard diagrams but still it just feels odd.

Are some of these idle sets not fit enough for use? Or the HST reliability works deemed necessary before more sets work?

I wonder, do the crew and drivers train concurrently? In other words, do they train at the same time on the same sets on a "training run", or would that be a bit risky (e.g. neither knowing who's responsibility it is to do/not do something at any particular moment).

 

[43096]

I wonder, do the crew and drivers train concurrently? In other words, do they train at the same time on the same sets on a "training run", or would that be a bit risky (e.g. neither knowing who's responsibility it is to do/not do something at any particular moment).

They don’t go out on their own. There are fully trained instructors with them.

 

[Northhighland]

You have to bare in mind that these things are 'new' not only to traincrew but the maintenance side as well many who not have seen anything like it.Add to that that GWR fleet didn’t seem the greatest in the first place.

Aye it seems that the reliability figures for GWR HST fleet is a lot poorer than LNER. Is the consensus that they need a bit of work or just some time to bed in? For what it is worth I have never found reliability in the years I have travelled the HML to be an issue the teams seem to look after the stock pretty well. I am sure they will get to grip with the HST in the same way the did the 170’s. However if the power cars are in poor shape might be a struggle?

 

[Stoney1979]

They don’t go out on their own. There are fully trained instructors with them.

Understood, but can train-crew (by that I mean anyone who is not a driver) be trained on the same set simultaneously when a driver is being trained? As a layman I can see both potential benefits, and problems, in doing that.

 

[jimm]

Aye it seems that the reliability figures for GWR HST fleet is a lot poorer than LNER.

Given the high levels of reported faults with the GWML Automatic Train Protection system reported by Modern Railways in relation to the IETs (something like a quarter of all technical incidents recorded are linked to the ATP equipment), it seems reasonable to assume that ATP also accounted for a substantial proportion of the issues with the GWR HSTs.

The East Coast HSTs do not have ATP and, in addition, their duty cycles are rather different from many of those that the GWR sets were subjected to, lots of long-distance causing, as opposed to services with frequent start-stop runs between closely-spaced stations.

 

[scotraildriver]

Seem to have plenty stock it seems Scotrail can’t get the trains out in service with the right staff. It also looks like reliability is an issue I that because they have been idle for a period? For those operating them is that a fair comment or a bit harsh?

Personally speaking I've had no power car issues on service trains which are running all day. Any issues I've had are with ones that have been in a depot for a while or shut down due to lack of shore supply. I have had alot of issues with the coaches however. Mainly leaking roofs and toilet header tanks, loss of 3 phase supply, faulty central locking and air leaks. Having driven then regularly now it's fair to say that in classic form these trains are "done". However the extent of the refurb shouldn't be underestimated. It really is a new train.