ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[hexagon789]

I take it having 170’s on the 7cities routes are due to training and not lack of HST’s?

Correct me if I am wrong but do we now have refurb and classic sets available for training at all depots ?

Should mean that crew training should complete much more quickly and the 170’s can go back to their original planned routes (is that fife circle and borders ?)....which in turn means less cancellations and short forms?

There will still be 170s on Inter7City routes after the imminent timetable change. Simply not enough HSTs for the 26 eventually diagrams, 15 are planned for this coming timetable period.

 

[najaB]

I take it having 170’s on the 7cities routes are due to training and not lack of HST’s?

As @hexagon789 says, there was always planned to be a mix of 170s/158s and HSTs until all 26 sets are in service. However, having a DMU turn up when a HST is scheduled is most commonly due to not having the trained staff in the right place at the right time (for example, let's say that four drivers and four guards are needed to run a HST diagram for the day, if any of them isn't trained then the whole diagram will be DMU operated instead).

Correct me if I am wrong but do we now have refurb and classic sets available for training at all depots ?

I don't believe so. There are four refurbished sets in Scotland now and, as I understand it, the depots with staff who need to learn the new stock are Haymarket, Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness, Perth and Eastfield. One of the refurbs is out in traffic which leaves three to train six depots. That shouldn't be a problem though because the differences training (Classic to refurb ) is apparently quite quick.

 

[hexagon789]

As @hexagon789 says, there was always planned to be a mix of 170s/158s and HSTs until all 26 sets are in service. However, having a DMU turn up when a HST is scheduled is most commonly due to not having the trained staff in the right place at the right time (for example, let's say that four drivers and four guards are needed to run a HST diagram for the day, if any of them isn't trained th

I'm not sure that any 158s were planned bar those that are/were booked to operate in multiple with a 170. Certainly I'd have hoped that if everything went smoothly as planned, everything not an HST should've been a 170 I thought, unless that's what you meant in a way?

 

[najaB]

I'm not sure that any 158s were planned bar those that are/were booked to operate in multiple with a 170. Certainly I'd have hoped that if everything went smoothly as planned, everything not an HST should've been a 170 I thought, unless that's what you meant in a way?

I believe that some Inverness/Aberdeen services would still have been 158s, though happy to be corrected.

 

[InvHst]

I believe that some Inverness/Aberdeen services would still have been 158s, though happy to be corrected.

Some Inverness to aberdeen services would still be a mix of 158s and 170s but obviously due to the improvement project now some of the diagrams have changed to account to allow HSTs to be in a position to run a service think I saw on a weekday that the 1057 and 1714 out of Inverness now are scheduled HST runs when they used to be DMU operated the 450 service now comes back and should then form the 0944 Edinburgh service from Inverness and the last Inverness service is back to DMU operation from Inverurie while these works are completed

 

[hexagon789]

I believe that some Inverness/Aberdeen services would still have been 158s, though happy to be corrected.

Sorry, I keep forgetting Inverness/Aberdeen is an Inter7City route. Yes, it definitely would still have 158s.

 

[adrock1976]

A very quick question without me straying too far off topic:

Once all the HSTs are running south and east of Inverness, is it intended for the 25 Class 158s that are allocated to Inverness Depot to be specially dedicated to running the Kyle of Lochalsh/Thurso and Wick services?

Also the short Inverness - Elgin workings?

 

[InvHst]

A very quick question without me straying too far off topic:

Once all the HSTs are running south and east of Inverness, is it intended for the 25 Class 158s that are allocated to Inverness Depot to be specially dedicated to running the Kyle of Lochalsh/Thurso and Wick services?

Also the short Inverness - Elgin workings?

. Still Scheduled to be 158 workings between Inverness and aberdeen so would say some their and then rest should be far north and Elgin commuters

 

[Clansman]

. Still Scheduled to be 158 workings between Inverness and aberdeen so would say some their and then rest should be far north and Elgin commuters

They're only going to be working local services along that route (Inverness-Elgin, Inverurie-Montrose), as the HSTs are going to fully take over Intercity duties between Inverness and Aberdeen when they're fully up and running.

 

[hexagon789]

They're only going to be working local services along that route (Inverness-Elgin, Inverurie-Montrose), as the HSTs are going to fully take over Intercity duties between Inverness and Aberdeen when they're fully up and running.

Are the local services going to be exclusively 158s or will some 170s still make an appearance?

 

[Clansman]

Are the local services going to be exclusively 158s or will some 170s still make an appearance?

Couldn't tell you to be honest.

At a guess, I imagine that all Inverness local services would be 158s given 170s only appear in Inverness on Intercity duties - and therefor won't have any reason to be in Inverness when HSTs replace them on these runs. Inverness crew competency on 170s would probably be maintained through the Inverurie locals, which I imagine would still use 170s in the peaks, providing ScotRail plan to still circulate 170s up that way.

The only way I can see 170s being used in both Aberdeen and Inverness would be on the back of early morning Intercity services from Perth, or running empty to work locals from Montrose on the back of an Arbroath terminator.

It will certainly be interesting to see how ScotRail keep the 170s circulating Aberdeen and Inverness post full HST timetable, if at all.

 

[CEN60]

...and there aren't any underbridges nearby. It looks as though there is one at the west end of Dunkeld station which might complicate things.

Correct - also the fact that the footbridge is listed causes all sorts of issues as soon as you go near it! There was an outline scheme looked at to move the whole station north of the underbridge you refer to - it had some challenging and quite large earthwork quantities (along with access issues from the A9 alignment that was in development at the time, I'm not sure what was finally chosen in the area of Dunkeld for the A9)

 

[Altnabreac]

Correct - also the fact that the footbridge is listed causes all sorts of issues as soon as you go near it! There was an outline scheme looked at to move the whole station north of the underbridge you refer to - it had some challenging and quite large earthwork quantities (along with access issues from the A9 alignment that was in development at the time, I'm not sure what was finally chosen in the area of Dunkeld for the A9)

Nothing has been chosen yet. Public meeting next week to look at different options, with a new station location still under consideration in some of the options:
https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/drop-ins-for-a9-dualling-pass-of-birnam-to-tay-crossing-options/

 

[hexagon789]

Couldn't tell you to be honest.

At a guess, I imagine that all Inverness local services would be 158s given 170s only appear in Inverness on Intercity duties - and therefor won't have any reason to be in Inverness when HSTs replace them on these runs. Inverness crew competency on 170s would probably be maintained through the Inverurie locals, which I imagine would still use 170s in the peaks, providing ScotRail plan to still circulate 170s up that way.

The only way I can see 170s being used in both Aberdeen and Inverness would be on the back of early morning Intercity services from Perth, or running empty to work locals from Montrose on the back of an Arbroath terminator.

It will certainly be interesting to see how ScotRail keep the 170s circulating Aberdeen and Inverness post full HST timetable, if at all.

I would think that it would probably be limited to any 170s on Aberdeen cross-City services that, as you suggest, worked up from Perth or Montrose.

Presumably all the Inverness-Aberdeen internal workings have stock provided by Inverness?

 

[Clansman]

I would think that it would probably be limited to any 170s on Aberdeen cross-City services that, as you suggest, worked up from Perth or Montrose.

Presumably all the Inverness-Aberdeen internal workings have stock provided by Inverness?

Not nessessarily as 170s appear on these runs after working from Glasgow and Edinburgh. One notable service a couple year ago saw a 170 working up from Glasgow working with 2 x 158s as far as Inverurie to form a 7-carriage peak service.

Inverness 158s appear across the board anyways and Haymarket 158s are no stranger to Aberdeen-Inverness runs from time to time either.
Post HST I'd imagine it'd be Inverness units, unless, as highlighted, ScotRail are willing to run empties or retain first morning/last evening Perth services as DMUs.

Perhaps someone on here who's more in the know will know what's happening?

 

[47271]

Nothing has been chosen yet. Public meeting next week to look at different options, with a new station location still under consideration in some of the options:
https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/drop-ins-for-a9-dualling-pass-of-birnam-to-tay-crossing-options/

What I've heard is that there's uproar locally given that last year the community clearly voted for an A9 option that led to the station staying where it is, and now Transport Scotland's turning back the clock to options that were supposedly dismissed ages ago. TS is perfectly entitled to do that, but the view is that they let the consultation go too far, and then went quiet for too long after the vote.

Anyway, we're off topic. The accessibility of the station is a disgrace in its present form and considering the traffic it handles. My on topic point up thread was that it's doubly disgraceful when served by mk3 stock, which seems to me will exclude an extra group of people who are just about able to get on and off 158s and 170s without assistance. A decision on the A9 can't come a moment too soon.

 

[Stoney1979]

Any news from Set 4 in Inverness? What's it doing / being used for?

 

[Northhighland]

Any news from Set 4 in Inverness? What's it doing / being used for?

Sitting in a siding looking very smart. Hope training is progressing Sens be taking an age.

 

[59CosG95]

Sitting in a siding looking very smart. Hope training is progressing Sens be taking an age.

Did you happen to gather if that is indeed HA23? (I'm assuming it is but am very unsure!)
Also - what coaches are in the mix of HA23 - and which FC coach was converted into a FC Buffet?

 

[FtoE]

The 17:25 south from Inverness is a 170 - as was the 12:53 on Saturday (actually a 170/158 combined)

(And, once again, no catering trolley with no pre-departure notification)

 

[HaggisBotherer]

Bagsy call 'bingo' when this thread reaches pages 253 and 254

 

[InvHst]

The 17:25 south from Inverness is a 170 - as was the 12:53 on Saturday (actually a 170/158 combined)

(And, once again, no catering trolley with no pre-departure notification)

Sorry to say but can see that diagram being more likely a 170 than anything the issue being the line closure at Inverurie currently means that Inverness needs 2 hsts to complete all the current diagrams if the 1739 from Edinburgh the night before doesn't run as a HST then I can tell you the 0453 to Inverurie doesn't run as HST which then takes the 944 out of Inverness out of a HST and the corresponding 1725 to a 170. And since currently inverness only has the training HST and refurb then can't fill the 2 classic sets needed to run the 2 diagrams currently in play due to the line closure However if for example tomorrow the 1739 runs as a HST then because tonight the 1739 is a HST then Friday should see both diagrams fulfilled but obviously that's staff depending as well

 

[Stoney1979]

Bagsy call 'bingo' when this thread reaches pages 253 and 254

You'll need a few bingo words. May I suggest "imminent", "shambles" and "training". You should have a full house in no time

 

[clc]

Should we read anything in to this one word comment by Alex Hynes about 125mph running?

https://mobile.twitter.com/alexhynes/status/1126227144038912001

 

[hexagon789]

Should we read anything in to this one word comment by Alex Hynes about 125mph running?

https://mobile.twitter.com/alexhynes/status/1126227144038912001

Not yet

Seriously though, while it was suggested that Network Rail were looking at the possibility of raising linespeeds for the HSTs when they were first mooted for use by ScotRail, that doesn't seem to have cone to anything and unless someone with insider info can say differently, I'm not aware of any plans to increase speeds above the 100mph ceiling on Scotland's internal railways.

 

[Paul Kerr]

Not yet

Seriously though, while it was suggested that Network Rail were looking at the possibility of raising linespeeds for the HSTs when they were first mooted for use by ScotRail, that doesn't seem to have cone to anything and unless someone with insider info can say differently, I'm not aware of any plans to increase speeds above the 100mph ceiling on Scotland's internal railways.

I thought the HSTs in the ScotRail configuration were restricted to 100mph due to insufficient braking force in the short-formed configurations of 4 or 5 coaches? Or did I misunderstand this?

 

[hexagon789]

I thought the HSTs in the ScotRail configuration were restricted to 100mph due to insufficient braking force in the short-formed configurations of 4 or 5 coaches? Or did I misunderstand this?

ScotRail's safely case is only for 100mph operations, but there is no reason why a 2+4 set cannot stop from 125mph within the W125 braking curve. The power cars are fully capable of braking their own weight unlike locomotives.

 

[Paul Kerr]

OK good to know; thanks for correcting me on that. There are several sections where upgrading to 125mph should be relatively straightforward as the track alignment is relatively straight (e.g. Bishopbriggs to Croy/Castlecary, Winchburgh to Polmont, Saughton Junction to Dalmeny, Dundee to Arbroath and the straight section between Perth and Invergowrie through Errol spring to mind). How long does it take for an HST to accelerate from 100mph to 125mph? It might not be worth it if the train takes too long to accelerate to line speed.

 

[hexagon789]

How long does it take for an HST to accelerate from 100mph to 125mph?

A 2+7 takes 4 minutes to do that. A 2+4 will be quicker.

 

[deltic08]

Bagsy call 'bingo' when this thread reaches pages 253 and 254

It has already reached 252 which was the prototype set.