ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Mack91]

HA98 43164 43179 0E23 Haymarket - Wabtec

Seen here at York

 

[supervc-10]

That really does show how awful those vinyls are. The cab is beautiful gloss paintwork and then the bodyside is dirty, dull, and matt.

 

[USRailFan]

They seriously look like burn-damaged scrap-ready units where most of the paint has peeled off...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2020 ==

Will there be a last-minute addition of an extra refurbished set after the accident this summer? Or will Scotrail make do with the sets they have?

 

[najaB]

Will there be a last-minute addition of an extra refurbished set after the accident this summer? Or will Scotrail make do with the sets they have?

That's a good question. There's no shortage of Mk3 carriages but are there any ex-GWR power cars unaccounted for?

 

[43096]

That's a good question. There's no shortage of Mk3 carriages but are there any ex-GWR power cars unaccounted for?

Other way round. There’s very few ex-GWR trailers around now, but plenty of power cars.

 

[najaB]

Other way round. There’s very few ex-GWR trailers around now, but plenty of power cars.

Is there a particular reason (other than owner) that they couldn't use ex-LNER Mk3s?

 

[43096]

Is there a particular reason (other than owner) that they couldn't use ex-LNER Mk3s?

Much easier with ex-GWR stock: interior fit (seats, lighting etc), jumper cables and the fact the ex-LNER stuff is in a shocking state.

 

[DB]

Are there still at least a couple of the unrefurbished sets still up in Scotland? Assuming they aren't already spoken for, presumably one of them could go for refurbishment?

 

[43096]

Are there still at least a couple of the unrefurbished sets still up in Scotland? Assuming they aren't already spoken for, presumably one of them could go for refurbishment?

Possibly, but they are now owned by ScotRail, presumably for spares recovery.

 

[ajrm]

Possibly, but they are now owned by ScotRail, presumably for spares recovery.

Still two classic sets sitting in Dundee yard, coupled together sans power cars.

 

[Goldromans]

Still two classic sets sitting in Dundee yard, coupled together sans power cars.

I believe these have been stripped for parts, and if so can't be used for refurbishment.

 

[CJSwan]

I believe these have been stripped for parts, and if so can't be used for refurbishment.

Also have been sitting with all their windows open and the end doors open to the elements and goodness knows what kind of wildlife (seagulls) have found their way inside.

 

[najaB]

I believe these have been stripped for parts, and if so can't be used for refurbishment.

Anything is possible if you're willing to throw money at it.

 

[InOban]

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1321 Doncaster Works Wabtec to Slateford Depot

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Maybe?

 

[PG]

Much easier with ex-GWR stock: interior fit (seats, lighting etc), jumper cables and the fact the ex-LNER stuff is in a shocking state.

I'm sure, somewhere back in the midst of time during this thread, the point was made by >1 poster that the reason for the wee (!!) delay in the refurbishment was due to the (allegedly) shocking state that the ex-GWR trailers were in so are the ex-LNER ones really that bad or even worse?

 

[43096]

I'm sure, somewhere back in the midst of time during this thread, the point was made by >1 poster that the reason for the wee (!!) delay in the refurbishment was due to the (allegedly) shocking state that the ex-GWR trailers were in so are the ex-LNER ones really that bad or even worse?

Have a look at the return to service time for the sets transferred to EMR. There's a thread on here that covers it.

 

[DB]

I believe these have been stripped for parts, and if so can't be used for refurbishment.

Provided the structure is sound and suitable ownership / financial issues were agreed there's no reason they couldn't be used - any missing parts could be replaced., possibly using ex-LNER veichles as donors in some cases

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2020 ==

I'm sure, somewhere back in the midst of time during this thread, the point was made by >1 poster that the reason for the wee (!!) delay in the refurbishment was due to the (allegedly) shocking state that the ex-GWR trailers were in so are the ex-LNER ones really that bad or even worse?

It appears so, given the amount of work EMR have had to do.

They also have a completely different interior spec, so that would mean either a non-standard set or a gut and refit.

 

[St. Paddy]

Provided the structure is sound and suitable ownership / financial issues were agreed there's no reason they couldn't be used - any missing parts could be replaced., possibly using ex-LNER veichles as donors in some cases

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2020 ==



It appears so, given the amount of work EMR have had to do.

They also have a completely different interior spec, so that would mean either a non-standard set or a gut and refit.

It’s difficult to know which were in a worse condition as both fleets have required significant repairs.

Judging by the pictures I’ve seen from Neville Hill, it’s nothing to do with the interior spec, but mostly about corrosion particularly around the gangway areas.

 

[DB]

Judging by the pictures I’ve seen from Neville Hill, it’s nothing to do with the interior spec, but mostly about corrosion particularly around the gangway areas.

Sure, but the interior spec of those sets is different to the Scotrail ones in many many ways, so if they were to take one of those it would require a complere refit anyway if they wanted to avoid an oddball set.

 

[InOban]

I thought that the contract was with Angel trains and most lner stock belongs to Porterbrook.?

 

[43096]

I thought that the contract was with Angel trains and most lner stock belongs to Porterbrook.?

The LNER fleet was 9 sets / 23 power cars from Angel, 6 sets / 11 power cars from Porterbrook. The ScotRail fleet is all Angel owned.

In any case, any replacement for HA22 will be down to the insurers to agree. Given the current low loadings, there's no guarantee that they will want a replacement.

 

[DB]

The LNER fleet was 9 sets / 23 power cars from Angel, 6 sets / 11 power cars from Porterbrook. The ScotRail fleet is all Angel owned.

In any case, any replacement for HA22 will be down to the insurers to agree. Given the current low loadings, there's no guarantee that they will want a replacement.

I guess it depends on what they expect the loadings to be over the next few years - they'd look a bit lacking in foresight if numbers fo back up, they were short of capacity and all spare Mk3s had been scrapped by then.

 

[Stathern Jc]

I think the insurance arrangements are likely to be the key issue here.
Would that fully cover providing a like for like replacement?
Or might they pay a valuation of the lost stock (however that might be assessed)?
There could possibly be an offer for either option, which is where Scotrail's assessment of future travel levels would influence the decision.

I hope the situation DavidB describes where we are beyond the point of a practical sulution doesn't arise.

 

[InOban]

Realtime Trains - 555K 1321 Doncaster Works Wabtec to Slateford Depot

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I didn't bother to post this path when it appeared on RTT last week (there have been so many false alarms ) but it was manually activated a few minutes ago, so it should be leaving about now.

And it has indeed left.

 

[hexagon789]

In any case, any replacement for HA22 will be down to the insurers to agree. Given the current low loadings, there's no guarantee that they will want a replacement.

Obviously they wouldn't have diagrammed all 26 sets for service, so the loss of one essentially reduces maintenance cover. On that basis how many sets were going to be diagrammed for traffic out of the 26? Would the reduction to 25 sets, even if traffic levels recovered to reasonable levels within the next few years be so awkward?

My thinking is they won't obtain a replacement and would use a 170 for cover if necessary. Just a thought.

 

[DB]

My thinking is they won't obtain a replacement and would use a 170 for cover if necessary. Just a thought.

I don't think any of us can have the slightest idea at the moment - it'll be down to a discussion between Scotrail, the leasing company and the insurers.

One thing which is worth noting though is that if they don't do it now, they may not have the option in the future as Mk3s may not be available, and the work would be more expensive for a one-off job than by adding another set to the current production line.

 

[Goldromans]

My thinking is they won't obtain a replacement and would use a 170 for cover if necessary. Just a thought.

If the aim is to have all long-distance services worked by HST’s, wouldn’t a 170 cause issues with some crew no longer being competent? Especially Perth-Inverness where there are no DMU commuter services like on the Aberdeen route. It would also counter-productive to the goal of removing suburban trains from long-distance services.

 

[CEN60]

If the aim is to have all long-distance services worked by HST’s, wouldn’t a 170 cause issues with some crew no longer being competent? Especially Perth-Inverness where there are no DMU commuter services like on the Aberdeen route. It would also counter-productive to the goal of removing suburban trains from long-distance services.

For what its worth - I came from Inverness to GLQ on a 170 set (with no first class) during September - not sure whether it was a "diagramed" service or substitution

 

[DB]

For what its worth - I came from Inverness to GLQ on a 170 set (with no first class) during September - not sure whether it was a "diagramed" service or substitution

That's because the whole HST fleet isn't in use yet.

 

[St. Paddy]

Realtime Trains - 555K 1321 Doncaster Works Wabtec to Slateford Depot

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I didn't bother to post this path when it appeared on RTT last week (there have been so many false alarms ) but it was manually activated a few minutes ago, so it should be leaving about now.

And it has indeed left.

Any idea of the formation please?