Smart Cards

[Llanigraham]

Only those ignoring the premise of the original suggestion are adding complications. If Oyster works well in London with contactless technology, then why wouldn't it work in other cities?

The actual suggestion is simple: Dump the pop card, dump the Walrus, dump the Get-me-out-of-here, etc, etc. Set up fare zones and fare structures inside each metropolitan area that wants to have a "smartcard" facility, and provide them with the same technology that drives Oyster contactless. No national fares, no multiple tickets, no complicated anything.

And to dump paper ticketing altogether for city journeys, extend the contract for basic bank accounts to also have accounts to link into issue on demand contactless cards for tourists and the like in the stations.

Instead of years spent trying to get these smartcard schemes working, there is a tried and tested instant debit solution waiting to be tapped into, the key ingredient to which most people already carry in their pockets.

Because we don't all live and work in cities!!
Have you forgotten the network also covers large areas of RURAL Britain!!

 

[anme]

Earlier this week I was running late on my way to the station, and whilst sat on the bus I bought a ticket for my train journey which was delivered almost instantly to my phone. I didn't have to waste time queuing at the station and so immediately went through the ticket gates and still caught my train. Later, the ticket on my phone (which included a QR code) was checked electronically by a cheery guard.

Of course, this wasn't in the UK.

 

[najaB]

Of course, this wasn't in the UK.

Apart from the cheery guard, it could've been.




*Okay, was just having a good-natured dig - there are plenty of cheery guards out there.

 

[anme]

Apart from the cheery guard, it could've been.




*Okay, was just having a good-natured dig - there are plenty of cheery guards out there.

It could have been, but only for travel between the approx 230 stations listed here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/100261.aspx
Will it soon become universal for the whole network? It is *really* convenient.

To return to the topic... smart cards and contact payments cards work well for local transport where fares are relatively low - they are very convenient as tickets don't have to be bought in advance. For higher value tickets which don't work so well on smart cards for the reasons mentioned above, smart phone and print at home tickets are a very good solution. And of course paper tickets should also be available.

It's a mistake to think that one type of ticket is the best in all situations.

 

[Clip]

Earlier this week I was running late on my way to the station, and whilst sat on the bus I bought a ticket for my train journey which was delivered almost instantly to my phone. I didn't have to waste time queuing at the station and so immediately went through the ticket gates and still caught my train. Later, the ticket on my phone (which included a QR code) was checked electronically by a cheery guard.

Of course, this wasn't in the UK.

This is the way forward for ticketing really. Ive said many times on here that when the over 60s start to die out there will be no need for paper tickets or even booking offices as we now have a generation who are using tech and their phones for everything including paying at the shops. People will wail and say this must never happen but you snooze and you lose im afraid.

 

[Dent]

Only those ignoring the premise of the original suggestion are adding complications. If Oyster works well in London with contactless technology, then why wouldn't it work in other cities?

The premise of the original suggestion was not other micro-systems confined to particular cities, it was was

a card I can use anywhere on the railways.

If you read the whole original post you will see that the poster's travel is not confined to within one particular city outside London.

Systems like Oyster confined to within other cities could indeed be developed - and indeed systems already exist for some other cities - but that is not what is being requested here.

 

[sheff1]

.....

 

[Swimo]

As far as I know, the only TOC to offer this for single and return tickets is Scotrail.

c2c offer this. I believe Southern/GTR are offering this too.

c2c is SEFT's lab-rat testing ground. They've got products such as the flexi-season which has proved popular.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is the way forward for ticketing really. Ive said many times on here that when the over 60s start to die out there will be no need for paper tickets or even booking offices as we now have a generation who are using tech and their phones for everything including paying at the shops. People will wail and say this must never happen but you snooze and you lose im afraid.

I don't recall disagreeing with you on here until now, so I have re-read this a couple of time just to be sure I've understood you correctly. But, I disagree.

I am well over sixty, and I am generally happy with electronic payments and tickets (but the railways don't currently do electronic cycle reservations, so I stick to bits of orange card for that). Many of my over-sixty aquaintances are even more enthusiastic in their use of mobile tech for their transactions. Some older than me are postively nerd-like in their enthusiasm.

The many aquaintances I have who are distrustful or otherwise adverse to electronic transactions are younger - much younger - many are under 30 yrs. old.

I won't try to generalise, but there does seem to be a significant sector of the community who have not embrassed mobile technology, but who neither are aligned with any other distinguishing ideologies - and they exist across a wide spectrum of ages.

Where this observation leaves us for the future development of electronic transactions is unclear, but I don't imagine for a moment that the many who have an aversion to wide-scale electronic comms are also the policy makers of the future.

 

[maniacmartin]

The many aquaintances I have who are distrustful or otherwise adverse to electronic transactions are younger - much younger - many are under 30 yrs. old.

Indeed. I'm still under 30 and I would always buy a paper ticket instead of using a smartcard or m-ticket, assuming there is no price difference. With a paper ticket you know exactly what you're buying and its all written down for anyone to read. With electronic tickets, not only do you have the potential for batteries to go flat or the technology to fail, it isn't always obvious what you might be charged when you touch out, or whether a touch has properly registered etc.

Despite (or because of) working in IT, I'm becoming ever-more concerned with how connected the world is becoming, and the huge amount of data being stored on us by governments and companies. I don't want to be profiled by advertisers, government agencies or fraudsters who have got hold of data that might be leaked because it isn't properly safeguarded. I certainly won't be installing any app from a TOC on my phone, when it probably would require permissions to read GPS and whatnot and could be sending allsorts of data back home. Using paper tickets means the risk is much less.

 

[kieron]

It could have been, but only for travel between the approx 230 stations listed here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/100261.aspx

That list seems to be out of date, as ATW say they offer it now (as well as discounted tickets only available using a smartphone).

 

[Abpj17]

Bizarrely, given how useless they are at running a functioning, on time train service, GTR/Southern is possibly the most advanced across multiple regions/operators.

Southern has run their 'key' scheme for years. It's now been (partly) extended to Great Northern and Thameslink. If your ticket includes Oyster/London zones, it works on Oyster readers as well. Apparently also valid on Gatwick Express and EMT services within season ticket validity.

GN and Thameslink are currently limited to season tickets only; Southern allows a wider range of tickets which'll be extended to GN and Thameslink apparently next year.

There have been various noises about experimenting properly with smart-ticketing so season tickets can become a reality for part-time workers and those who commute off-peak.

A card can hold up to 5 tickets at a time; you collect them when you 'tap in' at the gateline. No messing about with TVMs required if you buy online, but you can buy tickets at the TVM too.

It's not as quick as 'pure' oyster in the gates, but certainly comparable with paper tickets.

 

[Clip]

I don't recall disagreeing with you on here until now, so I have re-read this a couple of time just to be sure I've understood you correctly. But, I disagree.

I am well over sixty, and I am generally happy with electronic payments and tickets (but the railways don't currently do electronic cycle reservations, so I stick to bits of orange card for that). Many of my over-sixty aquaintances are even more enthusiastic in their use of mobile tech for their transactions. Some older than me are postively nerd-like in their enthusiasm.

The many aquaintances I have who are distrustful or otherwise adverse to electronic transactions are younger - much younger - many are under 30 yrs. old.

I won't try to generalise, but there does seem to be a significant sector of the community who have not embrassed mobile technology, but who neither are aligned with any other distinguishing ideologies - and they exist across a wide spectrum of ages.

Where this observation leaves us for the future development of electronic transactions is unclear, but I don't imagine for a moment that the many who have an aversion to wide-scale electronic comms are also the policy makers of the future.

Apologies Dave there was no offence meant in my statement but when we have discussions on these very pages the one thing that gets trotted out more than any other is the old people line and how will they ever get a ticket without an office there? And that simplydoesnt wash with me.

You are correct though that more and more older people are very adept at using new tech

 

[mattdickinson]

The Danish solution for National PAYG is a toggle on the card set at TVMs. For regional journeys the minimum balance is DKK 70 (about 9 pounds) , but for national journeys it is DKK 600. (about 72 pounds)

Details are at Rejsekort

 

[PeterC]

This is the way forward for ticketing really. Ive said many times on here that when the over 60s start to die out there will be no need for paper tickets or even booking offices as we now have a generation who are using tech and their phones for everything including paying at the shops. People will wail and say this must never happen but you snooze and you lose im afraid.

Having retired after spending over 30 years building the sort of tech that I am now supposedly unable to use I think that my preferred response would break forum rules.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Apologies Dave there was no offence meant in my statement but . . . . .

There's not much chance of offending me!
But I will respond, and not just to you . . . .

My point was, that the failure to engage with purely electronic ticketing and other electronic transactions arises from a number of causal factors, some passive (such as failure to learn how, lack of cognitive ability to learn, lack of equipment, ineligibility for any bank account, etc.) and some active (sociological distrust, practical choice related to the specific transaction, avoidance of known failure-rates, limitations of available equipment or networks, etc.) and of course combinations of the two.

At one end of the spectrum, there's always going to be an element of 'anti-establishment' citizens who will avoid transactions that are electronically networked, and at the other, there is the increasing proportion of an ageing population that experience the cognitive impairments associated with dementia, affecting their abilities and their choices.

The difficulty that this quite complex mix of factors creates for those choosing a technology for transporting people of all abilities in future, is in how to design and to present the technology to those who don't engage, both passively and actively. And sadly, I don't have any useful suggestions.

But by way of illustrations (which don't help us to design an accessible and acceptable ticketing system for the future), I'll just make these three passing observations from personal experience :-
Very many elderly people seem smart enough to equip themselves with 'free' bus passes for the English and Scottish 'concessionary travel schemes'.
The person who has taught me more about what can and cannot be done with a London "Freedom Pass" than any 'enthusiast' has done, is a pensioner, older than me, and is in employment (in an important position in the judiciary).
A young man I know, with an intense involvement in consumer PCs, and with 'under the radar' use of the internet, and who is very likely to benefit from simple smart card travel, refuses to go anywhere near a payment card or smart card.

Is the only way forward to design a smart card system which will meet the needs of majority (regardless of how we define the groups who become the majority and those who are excluded) and disregard those excluded others ?

It's a very difficult question to answer.
The mortality of the elderly doesn't seem to simplify the challenge.

 

[Clip]

I do agree Dave and as I said it was more of a slight towards those who pull the old age argument out when discussing closure of ticket offices. Im well aware that skills and abilty does vary across the ages.

Having retired after spending over 30 years building the sort of tech that I am now supposedly unable to use I think that my preferred response would break forum rules.

You really needed to read my other post too.

 

[Class 466]

Southeastern will be launching their smartcard "The Key" in December this year.

 

[FlippyFF]

Southeastern will be launching their smartcard "The Key" in December this year.

30th November according to Kent Online.

The above article gives a link of "https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/thekey" but it doesn't seem to be working yet.

Edit to add - Just found this > https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/tickets/the-key

Simon
(Counting down the days to trade in my paper ticket)

 

[jon0844]

I hope you don't have any issues, like it seems everyone else did when The Key was introduced.

Ticket offices not being given any kit to read/write to them (on GN at least) is amazing. They direct you to machines that say on screen to go to the ticket office!

And STILL they can't let me buy point to point tickets, even though I managed to use one before the official switch on. It would make me think that GTR has not done anything to progress this since it got the franchise, and is happy to just have seasons only on them.

 

[Hadders]

(Counting down the days to trade in my paper ticket)

Be sure to check that The Key doesn't have less flexibility and fewer rights than paper tickets before you switch.

The train companies don't mention this, of course.

For example, from Stevenage The Key cannot be used on VTEC services despite them providing 30+ services a day between Stevenage and Kings Cross. So effectively it's a Great Northern only ticket at the same price as an 'Any Permitted' paper season :roll:

 

[GodAtum]

i really want to use smartcards but not sure if it'll work: I travel from east croydon - Guildford. Do i need to use an oyster then SWT Smartcard?

 

[John @ home]

Do i need to use an oyster then SWT Smartcard?

A more fundamental problem for you may be that smartcards are not (yet?) available for First Class travel.

 

[plcd1]

I think the simple answer is that there is no one smart card that can cover the full spread of the national rail network.

I think you'd need a tiered approach that would also need to be linked to some serious rationalisation of parts of the fare structure. A move to a zonal structure that allows banded fares would be a help in aiding passenger comprehension of the system. It might also simply the system requirements. I could see this applying equally in denser urban areas but also on rural lines. No reason at all why you couldn't have a west country zonal structure covering the many rural lines there.

You could have a form of PAYG and season tickets and day caps with such a structure. Clearly that doesn't cover the full range of availabilities that currently exist and cuts across advance ticketing products. You could also piggy bank M ticketing and contactless payment cards on to the above structure. However it's very likely that the commercial pressures on TOCs via their franchises pull the industry away from uniform zonal type structures and coarser, banded fares. There would also inevitably be winners and losers in any "tidying" of the structure and that could end up being political and difficult because everyone thinks "Oyster type ticketing" means cheap fares and it doesn't.

I don't have a magic answer as to how you move between zonal areas where you start to get to journey lengths where long distance prices start to apply or passengers expect access to advance, discounted pricing.

I'm not sure I see much merit in having smart cards which solely carry an electronic version of a conventional paper ticket. You don't really gain very much by reducing transactions plus there is the "which do you use first" conundrum - that was a nightmare we didn't fix in my time on Prestige (later Oyster). It took decisions by those in charge of the product structure to allow capping that took the "upfront decision by customers / selection of product on card" issue away.

Given the great variation in fares for longer distance travel I don't see that there is a viable "smart" solution that can work across the very wide passenger population. Some users, e.g. business travellers, would probably be OK with using a long distance PAYG type product or even contactless payment. In essence they're not unduly bothered by the cost as it's expensed or paid directly by the employer. (And yes that's a bit stereotypical and doesn't need correction). How you cater effectively for the mass market of more price sensitive travellers with smart PAYG or similar I know not. Some might be happy to use PAYG / Contactless if they could be reassured they'd be charged what they expect and not be charged another £50 or so due to some delay or other reason outside their control.

I use Oyster in London without any great issue. I have a PTAC PAYG Oyster for use on national rail and it's convenient within Greater London. A product which worked in the same way and, say, covered the old NSE area would also be very attractive as the fares wouldn't be too excessive for PAYG use. Beyond that I think I'd prefer a piece of card with some printing on it given the huge complexity of the fares structure.

 

[jon0844]

A smartcard could carry PAYG credit, as well as storing a season, railcard, point to point tickets loaded on (that were too expensive to use PAYG for, or are for a specific service/route/class etc).

As long as a card is tied to you, you could then use PAYG to pay if you suddenly decide you need to travel further than an existing ticket covers you for. No penalty, as you'll just pay the difference, which is calculated automatically and at the best rate depending on the time.

I see no reason why a relatively simple set up of stored credit and stored tickets can't work hand in hand and effectively work with exactly the same ticketing system/prices we have now. Of course, we could simplify things as time goes on based on a far more intelligent system (perhaps with the final charges being calculated each day/week/month for further discounts).

Somehow I can't see The Key ever being that solution, or the DfT and ATOC/RDG ever managing to do this - unless there's some top secret project going on.

 

[sheff1]

A smartcard could carry PAYG credit, as well as storing a season, railcard, point to point tickets loaded on (that were too expensive to use PAYG for, or are for a specific service/route/class etc).

I see no reason why a relatively simple set up of stored credit and stored tickets can't work hand in hand and effectively work with exactly the same ticketing system/prices we have now.

Considering, to use just one example, the barriers at Leeds are known to tell users that an Advance ticket from Leeds "Is not valid at this location", I really would not want to use a smartcard which has such a ticket loaded on it as well as stored PAYG credit. The chances are that money for a walk up ticket would be taken from the PAYG balance, which then leaves the hassle of getting a refund.

 

[jon0844]

Considering, to use just one example, the barriers at Leeds are known to tell users that an Advance ticket from Leeds "Is not valid at this location", I really would not want to use a smartcard which has such a ticket loaded on it as well as stored PAYG credit. The chances are that money for a walk up ticket would be taken from the PAYG balance, which then leaves the hassle of getting a refund.

There would be a lot of work to do, which is why I have no faith that it ever would, but a smartcard would contain a lot more details about the ticket than a magstrip so that should actually solve that problem.

 

[FlippyFF]

Southeastern have this evening sent our their weekly newsletter which again mentions The Key but clicking on it now takes you to a page which contains a working link to register for the card. So far so good (only a day late).

Log in, and fill in the required details (all of which they currently have I think) and then says you have two hours to transfer a paper ticket after which you'll have to wait until you receive the card - enter photo card number and post code to search for your paper ticket - Error..... Error..... Error.... Error.... If you keep seeing an error, contact us.

Call Southeastern and the helpful chap tells me it doesn't go live until Monday, so I asked why they'd mentioned it in their newsletter again and enabled the registration page, cue discussion with colleague and he comes back says it's an error on their part.

Well done Southeastern.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

<snip>

I'm not sure I see much merit in having smart cards which solely carry an electronic version of a conventional paper ticket. You don't really gain very much by reducing transactions plus there is the "which do you use first" conundrum - that was a nightmare we didn't fix in my time on Prestige (later Oyster). It took decisions by those in charge of the product structure to allow capping that took the "upfront decision by customers / selection of product on card" issue away.

I renewed my annual paper ticket at the end of September, so it's just over two months old, the valid to date is barely legible and the ticket number, photocard number & price have completely gone. Give it another two weeks and the mag-stripe will go or it'll disappear inside some never before seen bit of a ticket gate again and the attendant will waste 15 minutes of my time telling me that I didn't put a ticket in......

Sixteen paper annual season tickets in the last four years or two smart cards (Oyster) in the last twelve years (and that was because my nephew lost it). Give me a smartcard any day.


Simon

 

[87 027]

I've just received a reply from Southeastern stating that The Key cannot hold dual availability season tickets (i.e. from station X but Also Available At station Y on a different line). So I'll have to stick with paper...

 

[jon0844]

I've just received a reply from Southeastern stating that The Key cannot hold dual availability season tickets (i.e. from station X but Also Available At station Y on a different line). So I'll have to stick with paper...

Yeah, that sounds far too complicated for a smartcard to handle. What were you thinking by even asking?