'South Western Railway' - branding (discussion)

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fairysdad

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Written big to get attention:
Updated again 19 August 2017, the day before the franchise handover with some first glimpses at the branding.

Updated on 27 March 2017 after it was announced that First have been awarded the new South Western franchise.

This is NOT a post about WHO should get the current SWT franchise, but IS a thread SPECULATING on what MIGHT happen should FirstGroup get awarded it. Discussion on the pros and cons and rights and wrongs over the situation of this franchise can be found here*, so please keep that discussion there instead of here. Ta!


So, if FirstGroup get the SWT franchise, how do you think they'll brand it? I would guess given recent FirstGroup policy on branding (with GWR and 'Buses of Somerset') that they will not be called 'First South Western' or similar, but instead go for a slightly more historic name.

They wouldn't be able to use 'Southern' as GTR are already using that as a brand name; I guess that the NetworkSouthEast name is still owned by whoever owns the old BR branding (BRB? ATOC? NR?) so that is out.

I would go for 'South Western Railway' which has connections to the LSWR. Thus, using LSWR as a basis for livery: difficult as from what I can gather, the LSWR had a green livery which is what First are using for GWR these days, though maybe a lighter or brighter green. LSWR also seemed to use a red / orange livery at some points during their history, so maybe an updated version of something like this.

Ideas and thoughts people?

REMEMBER: This is NOT a thread for discussing the franchise itself or the merits or demerits between Stagecoach or FirstGroup. This is a thread ONLY for discussion of potential branding and liveries should FirstGroup be awarded the franchise (I am assuming that should Stagecoach retain it, liveries will remain exactly the same as they currently are bar a few tweaks).

(* I'm sure there was another thread dedicated to this subject, but this was the only one that I could find through the search function. If there is a better one, Mods, feel free to change the link!)
 
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AS mental as this thread sounds I guess if they did then they may go for the green they use on GWR but separate from IC to metro
 

Townsend Hook

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I would go for 'South Western Railway' which has connections to the LSWR. Thus, using LSWR as a basis for livery: difficult as from what I can gather, the LSWR had a green livery which is what First are using for GWR these days, though maybe a lighter or brighter green. LSWR also seemed to use a red / orange livery at some points during their history, so maybe an updated version of something like this


The LSWR used various shades of green for it's locos, and a salmon pink and chocolate brown colour scheme for it's carriages. This [URL="http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1520.html"]link
gives a good impression.

Personally I think a livery based on the pea green loco colour could look pretty nifty..
 
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Deepgreen

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Salmon pink and brown exterior livery, with pea green 'sweep up' curves at unit ends, plus thick yellow first class bands. Fluorescent pink interiors, with sky blue doors and green seats. Bright red grab rails and mauve franchise name labelling.

Paper bags to be provided on all seat backs.
 

BestWestern

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Be nice if they left it alone....!

But realistically, I suspect they may well go for that 'South Western Railway' option, considering that is what the alliance effort is already called, I believe?
 

D6975

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I really don't like the salmon and brown.
The current blue class 450 livery is quite pleasing to my eye. The red 455 livery not so good, but I'm not sure if the predominantly blue livery would suit them.
 

43096

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Whoever wins, I think it will get a "neutral" brand and livery. It's the current preferred option for DfT (GWR, Northern and TPE are, or will be, branded in such a way); of course Transport Scotland started this with the ScotRail re-branding. Before anyone mentions VTEC, DfT forgot to include this requirement in the tender documents, hence the VTEC brand.
 

DarloRich

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so this is thread about what colour someone might paint a train and what corporate identify they might use IF they won a particular franchise at some point in the future? My head hurts at the sheer pointlessness of it all!

Therefore I go for beige (or desert sand in advertising speak) which will tie in with the Westerns of the past
 
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southern442

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Whoever wins, I think it will get a "neutral" brand and livery. It's the current preferred option for DfT (GWR, Northern and TPE are, or will be, branded in such a way); of course Transport Scotland started this with the ScotRail re-branding. Before anyone mentions VTEC, DfT forgot to include this requirement in the tender documents, hence the VTEC brand.

Soon enough all trains will be plain white with dark blue doors and a sparse interior with 2+2 ironing board seating.....

I should really stop


Moving away from that depressing image Stop it, I can see them going towards a sort of blue colour scheme, but I'm not sure what caused me to have that vision. Although it could be an entirely different story depending on whether or not they decide to have 'First' in the name.
 

43096

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Soon enough all trains will be plain white with dark blue doors and a sparse interior with 2+2 ironing board seating.....

I should really stop


Moving away from that depressing image Stop it, I can see them going towards a sort of blue colour scheme, but I'm not sure what caused me to have that vision. Although it could be an entirely different story depending on whether or not they decide to have 'First' in the name.
Personally I'd split the branding down into the type of services operated. Probably into 3 catgeories: long-distance, south-east commuter and "regional" type services. They could have catchy names like "InterCity", "Network SouthEast" and "Regional Railways". Oh hang on....
 

swt_passenger

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This is NOT a post about WHO should get the current SWT franchise...

You're right, it isn't. Stagecoach already have the current Southwestern (SW) franchise. South West Trains is their trading style, not the DfT name for the franchise.

You are referring here to the possible outcome of First Group being awarded the next Southwestern franchise.
 

387star

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Whoever wins, I think it will get a "neutral" brand and livery. It's the current preferred option for DfT (GWR, Northern and TPE are, or will be, branded in such a way); of course Transport Scotland started this with the ScotRail re-branding. Before anyone mentions VTEC, DfT forgot to include this requirement in the tender documents, hence the VTEC brand.

I thought corporate brands were only allowed if it is proven they add value which it is in virgin's case

Speaking of virgin east coast why is a buffet car on loan to emt thanks
 

bb21

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South Western Railway? The current alliance is already called the South Western Railway. You'll need to think a bit harder and come up with something new. ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, BestWestern has already pointed that out. Too slow.
 

Andyh82

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I thought corporate brands were only allowed if it is proven they add value which it is in virgin's case

Speaking of virgin east coast why is a buffet car on loan to emt thanks

It says in Todays Railways UK that First dropping their name from TPE was purely their business decision and nothing to do with a dft requirement.
 

BestWestern

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It says in Todays Railways UK that First dropping their name from TPE was purely their business decision and nothing to do with a dft requirement.

First has been deemed a 'toxic brand' by senior decision makers. The recovery strategy has been to relaunch the bus business with a new livery and various improvements, while on the railway side the name will simply be dropped and parent company ownership will only be acknowledged very discreetly. The new GWR identity conveys this new strategy, with the only reference to First being "a FirstGroup company" applied in small lettering to the bodysides. No pink 'Barbie' stuff going on, no flying F or other logos. Any branding used for other First TOCs acquired in future is highly likely to follow that theme.
 

sprinterguy

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43074

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It says in Todays Railways UK that First dropping their name from TPE was purely their business decision and nothing to do with a dft requirement.

For both TPE & Northern franchises the requirement not to use the parent company brand name was in the ITT, First have been trying to spin that it was their decision in the same way they did at GWR.
 

Class377/5

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For both TPE & Northern franchises the requirement not to use the parent company brand name was in the ITT, First have been trying to spin that it was their decision in the same way they did at GWR.

But its true. Its not widely know that had first won TSGN hey were developing neutral brands. They've been actively planning debranding for awhile now.
 

317 forever

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I think they could use the name FLEWPARR, an acronym for First London, Exeter, Weymouth, Portsmouth And Reading Railway.
 

BestWestern

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For both TPE & Northern franchises the requirement not to use the parent company brand name was in the ITT, First have been trying to spin that it was their decision in the same way they did at GWR.

First have their own reasons for not wishing to use the brand; as above they have acknowledged that it currently does not have the image and impact they desire. There have also been rebrands within the bus operation, for example the Buses of Somerset name and livery used around Taunton.
 

superalbs

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I found this today, anybody know what it means, and if it bears any relevance to the new franchisees?
 

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IanXC

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For both TPE & Northern franchises the requirement not to use the parent company brand name was in the ITT, First have been trying to spin that it was their decision in the same way they did at GWR.

Was it not more along the lines that the Northern franchise must include the word "North" in its trading name, and the TPE franchise the word "Transpennine"? Rather that an all out ban on parent company names?
 

BestWestern

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I found this today, anybody know what it means, and if it bears any relevance to the new franchisees?

Nope, that's just the name that was given to the now dissolved partnership between SWT & Network Rail.
 

Doctor Fegg

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You're right, it isn't. Stagecoach already have the current Southwestern (SW) franchise. South West Trains is their trading style, not the DfT name for the franchise.

It actually pre-dates Stagecoach getting the franchise. The BR shadow franchise was called South West Trains, styled SWT:



Stagecoach's very first branding simply added their corporate toothpaste stripes to the 'triangle' in the W:

 
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Agent_c

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It actually pre-dates Stagecoach getting the franchise. The BR shadow franchise was called South West Trains, styled SWT:



Stagecoach's very first branding simply added their corporate toothpaste stripes to the 'triangle' in the W:


Looks suspiciously like the old ITV logo...
 

swt_passenger

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It actually pre-dates Stagecoach getting the franchise. The BR shadow franchise was called South West Trains, styled SWT:

Yes but my reply was made earlier in the context that there was a competition going on for the current franchise; whereas the competition is for the next franchise to come.

It is referred to by DfT as the 'South Western franchise' in their documentation today, whatever it has been publicly called in the past.
 
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