'South Western Railway' - branding (discussion)

[nat67]

So soon it could be
Welcome aboard this First South Western service to Portsmouth or Exeter

 

[Roast Veg]

I'm not certain if the "First" would be said, is it said on GWR/TPE still?

 

[SwindonBert]

Keep up at the back...

4 tph between Reading and Waterloo (with two running faster then the others) was a requirement n the ITT and has been discussed a few times recently. There are proposed station calling frequencies for all the relevant stations on the line in spreadsheet format on the DfT's web page.

I know that they have run something similar from, at least, Twickenham on rugby days as have caught a train that missed out lots of the stations on the way back to Reading, so there's the capacity there

 

[SwindonBert]

I'm not certain if the "First" would be said, is it said on GWR/TPE still?

Fairly sure they've dropped all references to First on GWR.

 

[abn444]

Fairly sure they've dropped all references to First on GWR.

They mostly have but there is still "A FirstGroup Company" written on the trains (in relatively small writing).

 

[Feathers44]

Personally, I'm more and more coming down in favour of a set of regional liveries that are TOC independent. I think that's the Scotrail model these days?

As a punter, I don't actually care who runs the trains nor do I have any direct influence over them so knowing who they are is basically irrelevant. It would be far easier for me to stick at the level of 'the red trains' do metro things and 'the blue trains' go further out etc.

It doesn't even really matter that the blue and red trains are both run by the same company.

I accept that this may be a flaw in the competitive model over local metro routes but we are where we are.

 

[Parallel]

I hope they use a strong livery - I was a huge fan of the dynamic lines and local lines liveries. The new GWR livery is good too but I really like the SWT concept with different liveries for types of service. I also really like the 'LSWR' idea but not sure that will happen. South Western Railway or South West Trains are probably the most likely (if they can legally use either).

Also, half expecting to look at journey check one day and see "This train will be formed of 1 coach instead of 8" And yes, it has happened before on GWR between Swindon and Cheltenham!

 

[bb21]

I know that they have run something similar from, at least, Twickenham on rugby days as have caught a train that missed out lots of the stations on the way back to Reading, so there's the capacity there

Weekends only, or weekdays with some other services rejigged.

Weekday peaks - not a chance in hell.

 

[Goldfish62]

Fairly sure they've dropped all references to First on GWR.

The ITT stated that the branding must be transferable. That is also the reason why Abellio from dropped from the GA name. Looks like Virgin Trains East Coast was probably the last franchise to be let without a generic brand that can be carried forward.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Would it not make sense to maybe operate some routes as GWR, and the rest as say, London South Western?

For example...

Windsor / Reading routes could easily become GWR, so they could just have it all as one.

And Exeter - Basingstoke / Bath - Salisbury could become GWR

Just a thought? Would make rolling stock much easier to interchange. In the event of an issue in Penzance, they could send a SW GWR 158, to cover for the GW GWR set?

 

[swt_passenger]

Would it not make sense to maybe operate some routes as GWR, and the rest as say, London South Western?

For example...

Windsor / Reading routes could easily become GWR, so they could just have it all as one.

And Exeter - Basingstoke / Bath - Salisbury could become GWR

Just a thought? Would make rolling stock much easier to interchange. In the event of an issue in Penzance, they could send a SW GWR 158, to cover for the GW GWR set?

No, because they really have to remain organised separately on the basis that the GW franchise might change hands at its next renewal. Both TOC's fleets are sized for their own operations only, neither has spares available to bale out problems on the 'other' TOC.

 

[swt_passenger]

The ITT stated that the branding must be transferable. That is also the reason why Abellio from dropped from the GA name. Looks like Virgin Trains East Coast was probably the last franchise to be let without a generic brand that can be carried forward.

It does strongly suggest all that, but it doesn't use the word "must" in this context, and the relevant paragraph does still include the words "where practicable".

I'd read it as a strong suggestion, not an obligation.

 

[HH]

The ITT stated that the branding must be transferable. That is also the reason why Abellio from dropped from the GA name. Looks like Virgin Trains East Coast was probably the last franchise to be let without a generic brand that can be carried forward.

Possibly, but the Virgin brand is actually worth something. If I were bidding as Virgin and wasn't allowed to use my brand, then my premium would be cut.

 

[BestWestern]

No, because they really have to remain organised separately on the basis that the GW franchise might change hands at its next renewal. Both TOC's fleets are sized for their own operations only, neither has spares available to bale out problems on the 'other' TOC.

Well, SWT sort of does! Daily hire of a 158 to GWR, plus there seems always to be something of theirs running on EMT metals. This may change, of course.

 

[BestWestern]

Would it not make sense to maybe operate some routes as GWR, and the rest as say, London South Western?

For example...

Windsor / Reading routes could easily become GWR, so they could just have it all as one.

And Exeter - Basingstoke / Bath - Salisbury could become GWR

Just a thought? Would make rolling stock much easier to interchange. In the event of an issue in Penzance, they could send a SW GWR 158, to cover for the GW GWR set?

The two TOCs will be entirely separate from one another, there will no crossover and, indeed, such action is not allowed.

Since we're discussing it though, Portsmouth - Cardiff, curtailed at Bristol, would make sense for SWT I've always thought.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, SWT sort of does! Daily hire of a 158 to GWR, plus there seems always to be something of theirs running on EMT metals. This may change, of course.

Those two units are not to be included in the franchise rolling stock totals, as per the ITT. In other words DfT consider them (one GW and one EMT) to be already permanently transferred. The one with GWR is specifically shown to be with them until at least Mar 2020 anyway.

The incoming franchisee is told either to continue subleasing one to GW at cost, or to transfer it permanently via the Rosco. I expect with First group taking over the latter course of action is likely.

 

[Mordac]

Those two units are not to be included in the franchise rolling stock totals, as per the ITT. In other words DfT consider them (one GW and one EMT) to be already permanently transferred. The one with GWR is specifically shown to be with them until at least Mar 2020 anyway.

The incoming franchisee is told either to continue subleasing one to GW at cost, or to transfer it permanently via the Rosco. I expect with First group taking over the latter course of action is likely.

I know 158889 is with EMT, but which is the one with GWR, please?

EDIT: Changing GRW to GWR. D'oh!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are they likely to keep the idea of different liveries for metro (red) sub-urban (blue) and long distance/express (white)?

 

[abn444]

I know 158889 is with EMT, but which is the one with GRW, please?

I assume you mean GWR? If so there isn't a specific unit that does it, it changes from day to day. It's on day hire.

 

[Mordac]

I assume you mean GWR? If so there isn't a specific unit that does it, it changes from day to day. It's on day hire.

Indeed, that's what I meant. Thanks.

 

[Roast Veg]

Are they likely to keep the idea of different liveries for metro (red) sub-urban (blue) and long distance/express (white)?

I wouldn't have thought so, though if they get a good deal on the reliveries they may do a similar thing within their own colour palette.

 

[A Challenge]

The ITT stated that the branding must be transferable. That is also the reason why Abellio from dropped from the GA name. Looks like Virgin Trains East Coast was probably the last franchise to be let without a generic brand that can be carried forward.

I abbreviate it to AGA...

Anyway, I like the almost neutral white/blue/red schemes, with only the orange fronts, can we keep the block colour indicating the intended operations, or Class number. Another request, when repainting (if at all) can they add the '45' to the front of the Class 455 numbers?

 

[40129]

I abbreviate it to AGA...

Anyway, I like the almost neutral white/blue/red schemes, with only the orange fronts, can we keep the block colour indicating the intended operations, or Class number. Another request, when repainting (if at all) can they add the '45' to the front of the Class 455 numbers?

Don't think they'll bother repainting the cl-455s as they're getting rid of them. I'm pretty sure that the end of the that class on SWT will end possibly the last of the ex-Southern traditions, namely 4-digit unit numbers and route numbers.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Another request, when repainting (if at all) can they add the '45' to the front of the Class 455 numbers?

Don't think they'll bother repainting the cl-455s as they're getting rid of them.

They wouldn't even need to repaint them to add the missing two digits would they? Just stick them on.

 

[bb21]

Don't think they'll bother repainting the cl-455s as they're getting rid of them. I'm pretty sure that the end of the that class on SWT will end possibly the last of the ex-Southern traditions, namely 4-digit unit numbers and route numbers.

Route numbers I believe still live on elsewhere, eg. Southern's 455 displays.

 

[Deepgreen]

Route numbers I believe still live on elsewhere, eg. Southern's 455 displays.

Occasionally also on the 450s, mainly when operating off their normal routes (e.g. via Epsom). Further afield, GWR trains on the NDL still often display two-number headcodes, which are something of a mystery as they don't accord with the two-number codes shown on RTT.

 

[A Challenge]

I abbreviate it to AGA...

Anyway, I like the almost neutral white/blue/red schemes, with only the orange fronts, can we keep the block colour indicating the intended operations, or Class number. Another request, when repainting (if at all) can they add the '45' to the front of the Class 455 numbers?

Without trying to go too off topic, why is it LE?

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Eastern Railway.

 

[southern442]

Route numbers I believe still live on elsewhere, eg. Southern's 455 displays.

I think I can very faintly remember the 377's briefly displaying them when first introduced as well.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I hope they don't use the old Firstgroup corporate colours. No livery has ever been uglier!