Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[gavin]

Talks between the RMT and southern rail bosses have ended without agreement

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Talks between the RMT and southern rail bosses have ended without agreement

They'll never be an agreement. The government won't allow it.

 

[387star]

Has rmt won on gwr

I mean regarding guards on iep/West turbos not buffet staff and engineering staff

Strange silence

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

i was once told the staff are the union as without the staff the union has no purpose, so I can see exactly why some would consider an attack on the union a direct attack on staff as well.

It is those who lead a trades union who are those who are most in the public perception, so if those union leaders charged with having political views that are to the "extreme left" and as such issue press releases of the type that only those comedians/comediennes who parody the unions based on 20th century in media sketches, this gives a very unfair reflection on how ordinary union members are in reality.

The most vociferous posting comments of contributors to the wording of such press releases on this thread have been the union members themselves, for whom I have the greatest respect and sympathise that the leadership of their union does not speak in the considered tones of its membership.

 

[AlterEgo]

i was once told the staff are the union as without the staff the union has no purpose, so I can see exactly why some would consider an attack on the union a direct attack on staff as well.

Equally, the staff are the company, as without the staff there is no company. So is an attack on the company an attack on staff?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Has rmt won on gwr

I mean regarding guards on iep/West turbos not buffet staff and engineering staff

Strange silence

No, the franchise is ending soon so there is no desire to inflame things.

Wait for the new franchise to start...
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Equally, the staff are the company, as without the staff there is no company. So is an attack on the company an attack on staff?

That's slightly different. The culture of an organisation is set by the people who own it and control it.

A company is owned by the shareholders- and the senior management team are often shareholders- and so the culture is set by those people. The employees can't vote out a boss they don't like.

A trade union is owned by the members- the people on the shop floor- and they can vote out any trade union leader they don't like.

 

[AlterEgo]

A trade union is owned by the members- the people on the shop floor- and they can vote out any trade union leader they don't like.

That's very true, but it does raise the question of how much responsibility the membership has to bear for the poor quality leadership in the RMT.

 

[hwl]

Talks between the RMT and southern rail bosses have ended without agreement

They lasted that long or did they both agree to sit there and finish the biscuits

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's very true, but it does raise the question of how much responsibility the membership has to bear for the poor quality leadership in the RMT.

I think it'll be interesting to see how things play out. At the moment Connex Charlie and GTR's senior management team is behaving so pathetically that any anger and frustration will be targeted at them not the RMT leadership. The full-page adverts slagging off the RMT being a brilliant example.

I think for now GTR will get the blame for what's happened, not the RMT leadership, but I hope they learn their lesson for next time.

I work in a different sector and there's still a lot of sore feeling after my (ex) trade union's leadership went missing in action a year or two ago...

 

[gtr driver]

Wasnt the minimum 12 hour break rule originally introduced mainly due to being part of the Hidden recommendations , whilst the unions have probably been instrumental in ensuring it's far better adhered to these days than it was in BR times

It is the driver's responsibility to ensure he doesn't break the Hidden Rules, because the company would allow him to then blame him if something happens. The presence of the union gives us the confidence to stand up to the company and insist we aren't doing anything unsafe, because without it, doubtless they'd be like other employers and threatening us with all sorts if we don't do exactly what we're told.

 

[bnm]

No, the franchise is ending soon so there is no desire to inflame things.

Wait for the new franchise to start...

So the GWR staff will work the IEPs as planned - DCO and trolley catering - from introduction until the end of the Direct Award in 2019, then the union will agitate for changes?

 

[gtr driver]

These are the same sort of safety arguments put forward years ago about keeping conductors on buses.

Not many buses are 240 metres long, carry 1000 people, and get stuck in the middle of nowhere with a live rail and trains going 90mph outside with nowhere to walk and possible steep cuttings or embankments either side. Please!

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Not many buses are 240 metres long, carry 1000 people, and get stuck in the middle of nowhere with a live rail and trains going 90mph outside with nowhere to walk and possible steep cuttings or embankments either side. Please!

LOL. Enough said.

 

[Sprinter153]

So the GWR staff will work the IEPs as planned - DCO and trolley catering - from introduction until the end of the Direct Award in 2019, then the union will agitate for changes?

A recent GWR brief said:

- GWR does not propose to introduce DCO (Driver Control Operated) or DOO (Driver Only Operation) on any additional lines of route.
- DOO currently applies on most Thames Valley services and will continue to do so.
- Guards currently control train doors on High Speed and West services and will continue to do so.
- We propose that drivers would release doors on new IEP/AT300 trains and Class 16x units cascaded to the West, subject to local discussions with On Train and Drivers' Divisional Council.
- We are proposing that GWR and the RMT (along with ASLEF) participate in a joint review of
dispatch arrangements for IEP/AT300s.

 

[gtr driver]

There are NUMEROUS non-unionised workplaces (mine thank god is one) where we all take safety very seriously and when their bosses try to cut corners there are protections in place or workers forums to resolve issues. None of which require unions. No unions does not lead to a less skilled, less satisfied workforce.

Also thanks to constant scaremingering and lies most unionised workplaces (such as the railway) have low morale not high and crtainly not high levels of worker satisfaction. When your union keeps saying strike for better you all keep listening blindly and throwing your money away whilst inconveniencing poor passengers. Another poater asked why I hate unions. The GTR dispute highlights perfectly every reason to hate one.

There are also countless examples of unsafe practices going on out there workplaces which only come to light once a death has resulted. I can assure you the railway unions do play a major part in assuring both our safety and that of the passengers. Based on experience rather than a dogmatic hatred of unions.
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Oh come on, one staff member on a bus or train is quite different to suggesting the same for an aircraft.
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So you're quite happy with DOO on lines without a third rail?

But they do have all the other hazards. You'll be bringing out that bit of board we're supposed to use to block the sunlight out of the DOO cameras with next!

 

[northwichcat]

I have never seen a thread with so much union/TrainCrew bashing. This is supposed to be an enthusiasts forum. A Minority are certainly enthusiastic about bashing the actual people who work on the railway.

While the RMT's main interest is their members, they do a very good job at giving themselves a negative image to people outside the industry.

Look at what the RMT did on the launch day of the new Northern franchise - they made reference to de-staffing of ticket offices when that had option had been dismissed as part of the consultation process and Arriva had won the franchise with a bid which included more ticket offices and longer staffing hours. Therefore, the RMT give the impression their press releases are poorly researched and they don't keep up-to-date with what is going on.

At the moment while I'm aware DCO is mentioned in the franchise agreement and that section has been redacted from the public version (presumably due to what was going on at Southern when it was published) I don't think there's been anything said about existing guards being sacked other than what the RMT think could possibly happen. If you tell me Arriva actually plan to sack you and replace you with someone who is currently a STM RPI who will have very limited training compared to what you have to reduce the franchise subsidy then I'll be more supportive of the RMT's stance than I am currently am. However, if they plan to keep you and all the other guards on the same pay grade but ask you not to do the door duties anymore on some routes and the RMT call a 'DOO strike' I won't be supportive of it.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

While the RMT's main interest is their members, they do a very good job at giving themselves a negative image to people outside the industry.

Look at what the RMT did on the launch day of the new Northern franchise - they made reference to de-staffing of ticket offices when that had option had been dismissed as part of the consultation process and Arriva had won the franchise with a bid which included more ticket offices and longer staffing hours. Therefore, the RMT give the impression their press releases are poorly researched and they don't keep up-to-date with what is going on.

At the moment while I'm aware DCO is mentioned in the franchise agreement and that section has been redacted from the public version (presumably due to what was going on at Southern when it was published) I don't think there's been anything said about existing guards being sacked other than what the RMT think could possibly happen. If you tell me Arriva actually plan to sack you and replace you with someone who is currently a STM RPI who will have very limited training compared to what you have to reduce the franchise subsidy then I'll be more supportive of the RMT's stance than I am currently am. However, if they plan to keep you and all the other guards on the same pay grade but ask you not to do the door duties anymore on some routes and the RMT call a 'DOO strike' I won't be supportive of it.

The RMT love to fight a lost cause.

The latest wheeze was to persuade Northern staff to reject the average holiday pay deal the company council thrashed out. So the sheep followed the ram and rejected it.
Still waiting to find out what happens next. Probably nothing.

The RMT (And I'm a member, but a free thinking one) reminds me of 'The Grand Old Duke Of York' They march their members to the top of the hill, and the march back down promptly follows.

 

[Tetchytyke]

until the end of the Direct Award in 2019, then the union will agitate for changes?

Try the other way around.

GWR's staffing situation has not been resolved. The battle will start again.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

For the Northern staff on here supporting the RMT. You may have been on higher wages now if the RMT had not been so stupid during the last Arriva franchise.

They called a strike over pay, only to accept a worse offer in the end than what the company had originally offered. That is what happens when you call strikes and effectively starve your members to going back. Southern offered £2,000 last week, now thanks to the RMT they don't even have that, and are still where they started.

Unions yes, unions led by donkeys? give me a break.

 

[Antman]

Not many buses are 240 metres long, carry 1000 people, and get stuck in the middle of nowhere with a live rail and trains going 90mph outside with nowhere to walk and possible steep cuttings or embankments either side. Please!

Well if you want to go down that road, not many train drivers have to use a steering wheel, negotiate busy roads, take fares and deal with all manor of customers

Anyway regardless of all that the exact same arguments were put forward about keeping conductors on buses.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are also countless examples of unsafe practices going on out there workplaces which only come to light once a death has resulted. I can assure you the railway unions do play a major part in assuring both our safety and that of the passengers. Based on experience rather than a dogmatic hatred of unions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But they do have all the other hazards. You'll be bringing out that bit of board we're supposed to use to block the sunlight out of the DOO cameras with next!

That isn't quite what I said is it?:roll:

Unfortunately this is all getting rather petty now.

 

[bnm]

Try the other way around.

GWR's staffing situation has not been resolved. The battle will start again.

Pre- or post IEP introduction? And "will" is very determinate. How do you know?

Should it happen it'll just be another ill judged battle the RMT will lose.

 

[ainsworth74]

Should it happen it'll just be another ill judged battle the RMT will lose.

Depends what happens with ASLEF. No-one has been able to tell me whether or not there is provision for DOO(P) in the HSS driver contracts. If it isn't in there then ASLEF may well have room to manoeuvre in a way that they never did with GTR. In which case I'm far from convinced that it would be ill judged. Same applies to Northern for that matter.

 

[Tetchytyke]

"will" is very determinate. How do you know?

The dispute has not been resolved, it has been swept under the carpet, because the franchise holder does not have the appetite for the fight and DafT are too busy fixing the mess at GTR. I think the dispute will re-appear- as it will at Northern and at Virgin East Coast- once the new franchises start and once the GTR mess has been fixed.

Clearly DafT need the staffing reductions to pay for the cost of the overpriced Japanese plastic trains they've bought. So we'll have to wait and see.

Should it happen it'll just be another ill judged battle the RMT will lose.

It isn't just about the RMT. GTR were able to pressgang drivers into DOO(P) at GTR because it was in many of their contracts already; assurances ASLEF thought they had about maximum carriage length were not in the contract and were not honoured. That means ASLEF couldn't refuse to work DOO(P), which means that the RMT guards were in a much weaker position.

DOO(P) is not in the contract of drivers at Northern. It is unclear whether it is in the contract of drivers at FGW High Speed. If it isn't then ASLEF have a stronger hand and that means the RMT do too.

 

[Don King]

Pre- or post IEP introduction? And "will" is very determinate. How do you know?

Should it happen it'll just be another ill judged battle the RMT will lose.

The likelyhood of ASLEF HST and Wessex drivers accepting DOO self dispatch via CCTV on trains over 1/4km long in a segregated cab (so no drop down window and looking back to double check like turbos) on highly curved, short and platforms where cabs won't even be platformed, regardless of what the RMT say or do, is zero.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Well why did you mention the third rail?
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I'm glad you mentioned that last point, I accept there is some safety advantage with a guard in the rear cab who can lean out of the window slightly and see the train off the platform but a guard doing the doors from the public area of the train has no window to lean out of and is oblivious to anything that might happen as the train leaves the station.

Seeing the train off the platform is a problem, yes, but a guard can close doors (except the local door) walk onto the platform and do an inspection from the platform, to ensure all doors are closed properly with nothing trapped and the signal is showing a proceed aspect, then board the train and close the local door before giving two on the bell.

 

[ainsworth74]

The likelyhood of ASLEF HST and Wessex drivers accepting DOO self dispatch via CCTV on trains over 1/4km long in a segregated cab (so no drop down window and looking back to double check like turbos) on highly curved, short and platforms where cabs won't even be platformed, regardless of what the RMT say or do, is zero.

Depends on the contracts. If it's in there then they won't have a choice. If isn't then we're off to the races.

 

[Deepgreen]

The dispute has not been resolved, it has been swept under the carpet, because the franchise holder does not have the appetite for the fight and DafT are too busy fixing the mess at GTR. I think the dispute will re-appear- as it will at Northern and at Virgin East Coast- once the new franchises start and once the GTR mess has been fixed.

Clearly DafT need the staffing reductions to pay for the cost of the overpriced Japanese plastic trains they've bought. So we'll have to wait and see.



It isn't just about the RMT. GTR were able to pressgang drivers into DOO(P) at GTR because it was in many of their contracts already; assurances ASLEF thought they had about maximum carriage length were not in the contract and were not honoured. That means ASLEF couldn't refuse to work DOO(P), which means that the RMT guards were in a much weaker position.

DOO(P) is not in the contract of drivers at Northern. It is unclear whether it is in the contract of drivers at FGW High Speed. If it isn't then ASLEF have a stronger hand and that means the RMT do too.

This is one of the facets of all this that amazes me - how difficult is it to check these things before leaping into industrial action mode? It's vital to ensure a clear and firm position before acting, and ASLEF has also let its members down by not doing so.

 

[Don King]

Depends on the contracts. If it's in there then they won't have a choice. If isn't then we're off to the races.

To my knowledge there is no DOO (P) in the contracts of HST or Wessex and when HST men signed turbos, a guard was always provided who gave the ready to start signal and monitored dispatch. Speaking to a colleague down there, he reckons that the Cross Country or 180 method will be used.

 

[ainsworth74]

To my knowledge there is no DOO (P) in the contracts of HST or Wessex and when HST men signed turbos, a guard was always provided who gave the ready to start signal and monitored dispatch. Speaking to a colleague down there, he reckons that the Cross Country or 180 method will be used.

In which case this would probably help to explain why it all went quiet on GWR as ASLEF would have a much much stronger position than they ever had on GTR. Consequentially the RMT will also have a much stronger position.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is one of the facets of all this that amazes me - how difficult is it to check these things before leaping into industrial action mode?

ASLEF didn't leap into industrial action mode, they refused to drive the 12-car DOO(P) Gatwick Express trains as they thought they'd agreed that they'd only run DOO(P) as maximum 8-car.

GTR took legal action and got an injunction out against them, forcing them to drive the trains. GTR's initial attempt to roster an inexperienced driver on the first scheduled 12-car run, with the intention of bullying them into taking the train, didn't work. And an interesting read the judgment was too. There was some very, er, interesting logic in the judgment. Including discounting some of the drivers at Redhill from the ballot because GTR said they wouldn't be asked to drive GatEx, even though historically they had...

To my knowledge there is no DOO (P) in the contracts of HST or Wessex and when HST men signed turbos, a guard was always provided who gave the ready to start signal and monitored dispatch. Speaking to a colleague down there, he reckons that the Cross Country or 180 method will be used.

That'd explain why it has gone quiet there, and why VTEC are trying to cut staff numbers a different way by making the guard also undertake the role of crew leader.