Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[68000]

But as the incident where a Southeastern service hit a herd of cows and derailed showed, GSM-R can fail when you need it most. Hence why emergency protection using detonators is still in the rule book and why it is still part of a driver and guards knowledge.

And a staff member could twist their ankle accessing the ballast to lay dets

The Southeastern train had 4 GSM-R cab radios, the front one failed

 

[BestWestern]

While I am sure you are enjoying reverse trolling Astradyne, perhaps patience might be a better option. The length of talks and the lack of major leaks is a strong indicator that the GTR-ASLEF talks are serious and progressing. If ASLEF sell out conductors, forget safety arguments and accept DOO then it will be Astradyne laughing and you dealing with the consequences. Anything other than services needing an OBS to run or a strict limit on the % of driver only services, enforced through significant financial penalties and DfT will consider it a victory.

The victory has already been won at GTR, IMHO. Other TOCs may very well be a different matter, however.

 

[physics34]

And a staff member could twist their ankle accessing the ballast to lay dets

The Southeastern train had 4 GSM-R cab radios, the front one failed

true, but there are still dead sections when the GSM-R is "searching" for a signal... i know it would be a huge coincidence for a train failure in the exact spot that there is a GSMR failure and your mobile ohone wouldnt also have a signal BUT it is possible, we have to remember that history tells us that accidents are a accumulation of factors that normally have a 1million to 1 chance of happening all together.or more.but they do happen.

My issue it that taking away a staff member who is qualified to lay dets and well as 26 other stated "duties" is NOT safer and is NOT modernisation.

The other factor is that passengers PAY enough for their tickets to have a second saftey trained person.!

 

[TEW]

Nobody is trying to arguing GSM-R is not a better method of protecting the line in an emergency, but it is not infallible. It's true that the GSM-R radio was still working in other cabs on the Southeastern service, but the driver had no way of knowing that. In a different set of circumstances I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that no GSM-R is available. Full emergency protection using detonators is still in the rule book, and things don't tend to be in the rule book without reason.

 

[ComUtoR]

The Southeastern train had 4 GSM-R cab radios, the front one failed

The problem with the GSMR radio during that incident really proved how poor the railway is at implementing technology. It also showed that the TOC were willing to take a shortcut to save a few pennies.

The problem with going back to a rear cab, down ballast, away from an incoming train, into the other cab, switch on the radio, wait for it to turn on, then hit the red button, then maybe its working.. is that it still doesn't protect the train and still means you have to walk on ballast and also means you may be potentially walking away from the closest form of communication and not protecting the line.

Not forgetting the unit was on leaning over to the side. Potentially the rear cabs could not have been accessed.

Emergency protection is there for when there is NO communication. Ergo, the GSMR is not working. If you remove the rules for emergency protection and remove detonators then there is nothing protecting the train when there is no communication.

No GSMR, use Emergency protection. It's not a replacement for it. It's a preventative measure to be used BEFORE emergency protection is needed. Lets not conflate that.

 

[68000]

The problem with the GSMR radio during that incident really proved how poor the railway is at implementing technology. It also showed that the TOC were willing to take a shortcut to save a few pennies.

The problem with going back to a rear cab, down ballast, away from an incoming train, into the other cab, switch on the radio, wait for it to turn on, then hit the red button, then maybe its working.. is that it still doesn't protect the train and still means you have to walk on ballast and also means you may be potentially walking away from the closest form of communication and not protecting the line.

Not forgetting the unit was on leaning over to the side. Potentially the rear cabs could not have been accessed.

Emergency protection is there for when there is NO communication. Ergo, the GSMR is not working. If you remove the rules for emergency protection and remove detonators then there is nothing protecting the train when there is no communication.

No GSMR, use Emergency protection. It's not a replacement for it. It's a preventative measure to be used BEFORE emergency protection is needed. Lets not conflate that.

4 car train is probably about 90m long. The radio is on all the time, it takes 3 seconds to turn the HMI on and another 1 second to press the red button.

 

[the sniper]

While I am sure you are enjoying reverse trolling Astradyne, perhaps patience might be a better option. The length of talks and the lack of major leaks is a strong indicator that the GTR-ASLEF talks are serious and progressing.

Whatever deal GTR-ASLEF do won't validate the way Astradyne has consistently conducted himself in this thread...

 

[SA_900]

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[ComUtoR]

It does show a gap in training though.

Where was the gap in training ? The Driver had no communication. He used he route knowledge and knowledge of the service to head in the direction of an oncoming train and to the a signal post telephone. The GSMR wasn't working and the MCB had tripped. We are under instruction not to reset MCB's

I hope that the correct procedure has been reiterated to all drivers in the form of a bulletin or similar?

What's the new procedure ?

 

[KTHV]

Whatever deal GTR-ASLEF do won't validate the way Astradyne has consistently conducted himself in this thread...

Maybe he's replaced a decent conducting poster with himself as an OBS (Obstinate Boorish Simpleton)

 

[ComUtoR]

4 car train is probably about 90m long. The radio is on all the time, it takes 3 seconds to turn the HMI on and another 1 second to press the red button.

Takes longer than 3 seconds to turn on the GSMR. He would still take time to walk down ballast those 90 meters and then still try to enter the cab and then it was a case that maybe the GSMR would be working. NOBODY knew it would be working. As the clock was ticking the Driver made the quickest and most effective decision to protect the line.

Here was me thinking you didn't want people walking down ballast. The GSMR broke right at the point in which it was actually needed. Still misses the point that its not there to replace emergency protection. Emergency protection is there because the GSMR is broken and you have no communication.

 

[SA_900]

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[tsr]

Would it not have made more sense to try one of the other three cars? Seems likely to have resolved the issue much more quickly.

In general, you don't have a GSM-R set in every coach, and not all the MCBs in each coach control the same equipment. Even if they do, it may not be obvious which to reset in the event of an emergency, if multiple systems have tripped out including overall power supplies, and you're dealing the problem whilst at a slant, in the dark and behind a body-end cupboard door!

Very much a worst-case scenario, but one which can be resolved by dropping the whole plan of GSM-R and going for emergency protection with detonators. Note that although I'm not sure it happened in the incident with the cows in Kent, ideally [both members of] crew should lay track circuit clips on each obstructed line as their first method of communication, anyway. If there are two people who can do that and then try different methods of contacting the signaller and other traffic, so much the better.

 

[ComUtoR]

Would it not have made more sense to try one of the other three cars? Seems likely to have resolved the issue much more quickly.

No.

The main issue was that the MCB had tripped out. The GSMR was no longer working and you have derailled. Everything is shouting at you to protect the line and your train and you have no communication.

Firstly resetting an MCB is kind of a no no and actively discouraged. It will then still take time for the GSMR to reboot (which isn't quick) and still may not work. There is probably a good reason why its tripped out.

The problem is that you have to make a decision. Protect the line and get communication. Going back takes up essential time and its guess work that the GSMR would be working or that you can actually access the cabs. GSMR in an intermediate cab doesn't have to be working. It could have been boxed in etc. Not forgetting you are going backwards. That goes against what we are taught. Quickest communication, towards oncoming trains, junctions etc are priority. Bar down, TCOC, Communication.

Walking back to other cabs brings in other issues and potentially more problems. We know trains and are on them daily. For whatever reason he didn't believe the going back to check something he knew was broken was the quickest option.

2 Car I can see it may be quick and effective. 4 Car starts to be in the realm of extending risk for a maybe rather than a certainty. 8 Cars and your extending that further.

Lessons were learned that's for sure. Most of all that a battery backup should never have been optional. The Guard could have used the GSMR red button. He could have walked back, MCB could have been reset etc but that is all hindsight. It is only through this hindsight that we can criticise but he did what he thought was best and acted in line with procedures.

The GSMR proved to be fallible at a critical time and "broke" shockingly easy. Not all the GSMR MCB's are in the cab and it was unknown that the MCB only trips out the single GSMR and not wired to the entire train (some MCB's are)

I'm not sure I'd use this as a case to support Guards on trains but it does highlight the various issues that we are concerned about with DOO.

We do have mobiles and the GSMR is the first line of defence. Protection is the last line.

 

[carriageline]

It does show a gap in training though.



I hope that the correct procedure has been reiterated to all drivers in the form of a bulletin or similar?

How can someone who clearly does not have a clue what he/she is talking about, state what should be trained to drivers?

Everything I saw commended the driver on his actions, he did the right thing, and that was protect life. In them situations, you can have seconds to make the right decisions.

The problem with emergencies and incidents, is that they can always be done better by the hindsight brigade. People forget, panic in the heat of the moment, it could of been a year since they had training on something. The problem is, you can train, train, and train for an emergency, but there are a few stumbling blocks that cause issues.



1) unexpected equipment faults: this situation sums it up perfectly.
2) equipment and people not behaving the same as the perfect environment of the training room, leading to confusing
3) you get training (and experience of) on emergencies and incidents once in a blue moon. By the time you've come round to having to do it, with stress and andrenaline pumping, mistakes are made. People cannot recall what buttons to press and in what order. It's human nature. Unless you do training every month, that cannot be accounted for

On the railway you need to be dynamic and react as the situation unfolds. If we were taught, and subsequently acted, to a script, we would come unstuck very quickly.


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[SA_900]

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[Deepgreen]

Relax pal, it was a question. I am not mandating anything.

"It does show a gap in training though" is not a question.

 

[SA_900]

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[Astradyne]

Whatever deal GTR-ASLEF do won't validate the way Astradyne has consistently conducted himself in this thread...

And he was me thinking I have been systematically bullied by certain members of the forum ... there are many on here who have behaved worse than me in this thread

 

[the sniper]

And he was me thinking I have been systematically bullied by certain members of the forum ...

Wrong again.

We shan't argue about it though, as that'd be as pointless.

 

[yorkie]

And he was me thinking I have been systematically bullied by certain members of the forum ... there are many on here who have behaved worse than me in this thread

I have said numerous times, and it is made very clear in our Forum Rules:

"if any content causes you concern, please alert us to it, by reporting (

) it."
​

Yes, we are giving more leeway in this thread than elsewhere, but if someone really feels they are being "bullied" we ask that they do not react in any way and simply report the posts concerned. Let us know exactly which words in the post are cause for concern, and which rule(s) you think they break.

This thread is not to discuss allegations of bullying by other forum members and it is not to discuss whose behaviour is the worst; any such concerns must be reported to us using the proper procedures instead.

Back on topic now please...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the thread length so far of over 10,800 postings, may I ask what it has actually achieved so far?

 

[O L Leigh]

It's just a forum discussion, Paul. We're not setting policy.

However, I would hope that it's achieved a measure of education for folk who maybe don't fully understand all the issues tied up with DOO and the reasons behind them, so that we can have a more reasoned and informed debate. The antagonism and political rhetoric is something that I'd hoped could have been avoided because these really are only sideshows.

O L Leigh

 

[carriageline]

In the thread length so far of over 10,800 postings, may I ask what it has actually achieved so far?

This is MY honest opinion. I'm a member of the RMT (although not traincrew), and a firm believer in unions and what they stand for.

Not a massive amount have been achieved. A lot of damage has been done to unions, GTR (righty or wrongly), the rail industry as a whole, but most importantly, the punters. The government/GTR have got what they wanted, whether or not the guards are in a better position I cannot say. I know they've been "promised" some stuff, regarding money and future which is fantastic.

But the RMT keeping the strikes up is futile, surely they must realise this. The government will not halt now. They are unfortunately creating more reason for the tories to try and break unions. I'm not sure what they are trying to achieve, now that they have essentially agreed to continue DOO.

I thought from the start that more focus should be made on what happens after DOO, rather than completely fighting it, as it was obvious that was going to happen it.

Note: I'm completely pro guard, and I truly believe we should have one on each train. But the government don't, therefore they will win.

 

[O L Leigh]

But the RMT keeping the strikes up is futile, surely they must realise this. The government will not halt now. They are unfortunately creating more reason for the tories to try and break unions. I'm not sure what they are trying to achieve, now that they have essentially agreed to continue DOO.

But they haven't agreed to DOO. Staff have had DOO foisted upon them together with new contracts of employment for conductors. As I understand it, the unions are still in dispute with GTR.

O L Leigh

 

[carriageline]

But they haven't agreed to DOO. Staff have had DOO foisted upon them together with new contracts of employment for conductors. As I understand it, the unions are still in dispute with GTR.



O L Leigh

Have they not? I know the conductors were told to accept the new contracts as it kept them in work (I don't agree with how this was handled by GTR...)


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[cjmillsnun]

Have they not? I know the conductors were told to accept the new contracts as it kept them in work (I don't agree with how this was handled by GTR...)


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They were instructed to sign the new contract "under duress"

 

[cjmillsnun]

Would a OBS be trained for these circumstances?

Would they not require route knowledge, traction knowledge, and PTS for that? They may as well be a guard.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Note: I'm completely pro guard, and I truly believe we should have one on each train. But the government don't, therefore they will win.

I'm a driver of over 30 years and I totally agree.Unfortunately the politicians think they know better or perhaps it's simply more about money..

 

[Bookd]

But they haven't agreed to DOO. Staff have had DOO foisted upon them together with new contracts of employment for conductors. As I understand it, the unions are still in dispute with GTR.

O L Leigh

I am sure that you are correct, but as the government hold the aces DOO is happening - continued strikes will just lose money for the staff and continue to cheese off the customers whose lives are disrupted.