Speculation: BR Class 442 - Northern Franchise

[Emblematic]

You must remember that around the time the 442s will become available, great swathes of ex-HST Mk 3s will be as well. Why spend money adapting the 442s to LHCS when you can just use the ex-HST coaches, presumably with comparatively few modifications?

One thing we will be in surplus of, with GW and MML electrification, is express diesel trains. What we will need in quantity are electric units - so little point in converting the ones we have into stock we have enough of!
I doubt the HST carriages will be separated from their power cars - these were all completely rebuilt in the last few years, so are fit to use for many years yet. To convert the carriages to conventional LHCS the electrics would need changing from three-phase 415v to single-phase 1000v, so not that easy.

 

[Muzer]

Why will we particularly need electric units? A few hiccups aside, most places that will need electric units either already have them on order, or could conceivably have them cascaded - and 442s probably wouldn't be suited to most routes that require extra units in any case, even if they were converted to AC.

How many "regional express" type journeys are there that are third-rail electrified? Waterloo to Weymouth which already has plenty of stock, and perhaps Victoria to Brighton. Even if you add ones that will be AC electrified, I still can't see where they would usefully go.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

West Coastway semi-fasts perhaps (e.g. Brighton - Portsmouths)?

At least the locals can't complain about lack of toilet facilities

 

[Muzer]

Unless you mean additional services, the current services do have a whole load of stops. Not sure the 442s would be suitable for that at all... not to mention them (I'd assume) being much longer than necessary.

 

[Emblematic]

Why will we particularly need electric units? A few hiccups aside, most places that will need electric units either already have them on order, or could conceivably have them cascaded - and 442s probably wouldn't be suited to most routes that require extra units in any case, even if they were converted to AC.

How many "regional express" type journeys are there that are third-rail electrified? Waterloo to Weymouth which already has plenty of stock, and perhaps Victoria to Brighton. Even if you add ones that will be AC electrified, I still can't see where they would usefully go.

Well, there are around 3000 new train carriages expected to be delivered by the end of the decade, all of which are electric. Very few of these are direct replacement of life-expired stock (e.g. no orders for coastway, or Merseyrail 507/8 replacements yet) and very little is expected be retired - so I deuce from that we are still in need of electric units. Simply put, if any electric fleet gets retired, more stock will need to be ordered to replace it.

442s are definitely a challenge for their owners though. Of course, if they are kept in use on the third rail, any stock they displace would almost certainly be convertible to 25kV and could be cascaded pretty much anywhere. Only a few classes remain that are strictly third rail only.

 

[Kite159]

West Coastway semi-fasts perhaps (e.g. Brighton - Portsmouths)?

At least the locals can't complain about lack of toilet facilities

Thinking along the same lines.

Just a shame the West Coastway has very few passing loops for fasts (or semi-fasts) to overtake the stoppers

Probably would be more comfy than the 377s

 

[Fincra5]

Basically... have them paired with a 73.. (1 unit) and then run them from BTN-AFK. SDO will just be via the local guards door in the MLC... Overcrowding on the Marshlink.. *SOLVED* and then some 171s to Uckfield lines...

 

[Starmill]

In other rumours I am about to marry Kylie Minogue!

I'm afraid there's nought I can do but agree on this one!

 

[GatwickDepress]

At the end of theirlife, I wonder if any will be purchased by a preservation society, though I do not envy being any of their electricians should one be...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Well, there are around 3000 new train carriages expected to be delivered by the end of the decade, all of which are electric. Very few of these are direct replacement of life-expired stock (e.g. no orders for coastway, or Merseyrail 507/8 replacements yet) and very little is expected be retired - so I deuce from that we are still in need of electric units. Simply put, if any electric fleet gets retired, more stock will need to be ordered to replace it.

442s are definitely a challenge for their owners though. Of course, if they are kept in use on the third rail, any stock they displace would almost certainly be convertible to 25kV and could be cascaded pretty much anywhere. Only a few classes remain that are strictly third rail only.

It'll come down to the cost of converting them to dual voltage, changing the traction package to AC and any other work that needs doing on them versus the cost of a new build of dual-voltage 444s (with the cab of a 380 - needed to pass current crash regs)

 

[cjmillsnun]

One thing we will be in surplus of, with GW and MML electrification, is express diesel trains. What we will need in quantity are electric units - so little point in converting the ones we have into stock we have enough of!
I doubt the HST carriages will be separated from their power cars - these were all completely rebuilt in the last few years, so are fit to use for many years yet. To convert the carriages to conventional LHCS the electrics would need changing from three-phase 415v to single-phase 1000v, so not that easy.

Actually a lot easier than you think.

take the 1000v ETS from the loco and run through a three phase inverter, et voila. Three phase 415v, use this to power otherwise unmodified HST coaches. A static inverter would do the job, or even if you want to use old fashioned technology, a motor alternator.

It's harder to do it the other way round.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Actually a lot easier than you think.

take the 1000v ETS from the loco and run through a three phase inverter, et voila. Three phase 415v, use this to power otherwise unmodified HST coaches. A static inverter would do the job, or even if you want to use old fashioned technology, a motor alternator.

It's harder to do it the other way round.

But how many locos or pieces of rolling stock have a Three Phase Inverter?

 

[cjmillsnun]

But how many locos or pieces of rolling stock have a Three Phase Inverter?

All Mk3 LHCS have something similar. It's called a motor alternator. The HVAC systems on the Mk3s use three phase 415v AC. A three phase inverter is a solid state version, and is something porterbrook is considering for the Mk3 LHCS.

 

[t_star2001uk]

All Mk3 LHCS have something similar. It's called a motor alternator. The HVAC systems on the Mk3s use three phase 415v AC. A three phase inverter is a solid state version, and is something porterbrook is considering for the Mk3 LHCS.

Like the static converter that we have in one of our Mk3s on Chiltern that is still not in service.

 

[Emblematic]

Actually a lot easier than you think.

take the 1000v ETS from the loco and run through a three phase inverter, et voila. Three phase 415v, use this to power otherwise unmodified HST coaches. A static inverter would do the job, or even if you want to use old fashioned technology, a motor alternator.

It's harder to do it the other way round.

I like that idea a lot. It's main drawback being that I'd overlooked it :-x So modest rewire and some static inverters it is then. I'm rather hoping we get short-formed HSTs moving onto secondary routes when IEP starts rolling, so there should be a pool of Mk 3s available soon one way or another. And getting back on topic, still no need for the 442s to be converted to LHCS!

 

[170401]

My thinking behind suggesting the 442s as loco hauled stock was the cab at each end, seems a waste of good Mk3 driving vehicles to me.

Could HST's be split and have a 442 driving trailer attached to the opposite end so creating a 4-6 coach train with a power car at one end and 442 DTS at the other? Together with a Chiltern style refurb you could get up to 48 pretty useful mid size regional trainsets with a possible 15-20 year lifespan out of that. Might be an idea for Scottish region internals, TPE, Southwest regional services or even spot hire.

 

[Jonny]

My thinking behind suggesting the 442s as loco hauled stock was the cab at each end, seems a waste of good Mk3 driving vehicles to me.

Could HST's be split and have a 442 driving trailer attached to the opposite end so creating a 4-6 coach train with a power car at one end and 442 DTS at the other? Together with a Chiltern style refurb you could get up to 48 pretty useful mid size regional trainsets with a possible 15-20 year lifespan out of that. Might be an idea for Scottish region internals, TPE, Southwest regional services or even spot hire.

Plausible, but rather pricey, the price depending on how much of the 442 was kept and how much butchery is needed... and it would struggle with one power car on 125mph gearing.

 

[AM9]

Plausible, but rather pricey, the price depending on how much of the 442 was kept and how much butchery is needed... and it would struggle with one power car on 125mph gearing.

Why would a 4-5 car single car 1/2 HST struggle more than a 9-10 car full HST struggle? The power to weight ratio and ratio of powered axles would be the same.

 

[Emblematic]

Why would a 4-5 car single car 1/2 HST struggle more than a 9-10 car full HST struggle? The power to weight ratio and ratio of powered axles would be the same.

Aerodynamic losses become very significant, if not dominant, at high speeds. Length of the train adds little to the aero drag, so you have a less powerful train trying to make the same size hole in the air.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plausible, but rather pricey, the price depending on how much of the 442 was kept and how much butchery is needed... and it would struggle with one power car on 125mph gearing.

I suspect that the regulations mean you couldn't increase the speed of the 442 (or bits of one) above it's original designed/authorized speed without meeting the current safety standards. I know the 442s are the fastest thing on three rails, but that was an exception, they would be regarded at 100 MPH units.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the maximum speed rating of the bogies on the 442s? I'm guessing that there are some differences between the bogies on the 442s and the bogies on a normal mk3 HST or loco hauled coach?

 

[AM9]

What's the maximum speed rating of the bogies on the 442s? I'm guessing that there are some differences between the bogies on the 442s and the bogies on a normal mk3 HST or loco hauled coach?

Yes they had short links to limit the sideways movement to that allowed by the gauge on SR routes.

 

[edwin_m]

Based on a quick Google the 442 trailer bogies are BREL T4s. These were also fitted to the Mk3 DVTs so in principle should be good for 125mph.

 

[Olaf]

A number of budget hotel chains have not denied that they are working on business cases to convert these units into sleep carriages.

Essentially they would be fitted out with bunk sleep capsules (similar to those used in Japanese Capsule Hotels) and then shuntted each night into a number of London's main terminals for use as go-nowhere sleeper trains. The marketting will be aimed at late night revellers and those that miss the last train home. Part of the business case is that the proposals will boost passenger capacity while not requiring additional track capacity. One marketing suggestion was "Four 4 Two" vs the usual three for two, though a few councils were a bit perturbed at the potentially implications.

 

[ExRes]

A number of budget hotel chains have not denied that they are working on business cases to convert these units into sleep carriages.

Essentially they would be fitted out with bunk sleep capsules (similar to those used in Japanese Capsule Hotels) and then shuntted each night into a number of London's main terminals for use as go-nowhere sleeper trains. The marketting will be aimed at late night revellers and those that miss the last train home. Part of the business case is that the proposals will boost passenger capacity while not requiring additional track capacity. One marketing suggestion was "Four 4 Two" vs the usual three for two, though a few councils were a bit perturbed at the potentially implications.

A very good idea, they could also be marketed with an Olde Worlde appeal as they seem to be fitted with open fires ..........

 

[3141]

OK, here's the solution. 442s to run Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter. This releases SWT's 158s and 159s to First Great Western. FGW release a few 150s for Romsey services and Lymington.

If it's not possible to electrify third rail to Salisbury and Exeter (and I've read elsewhere that there's an issue around getting electrical power to the route) then a group of the new revamped Class 73s are brought in to haul the 442's. Preferably the third rail goes to Salisbury and the electro-diesel takes over there; otherwise the loco would have to take over at Basingstoke. If there isn't capacity there for locos to attach and detach then extend the third rail for a mile or so west of Worting Junction and do the changeover there.

There are 24 class 442 units so with 20 or 21 in service at any time there are enough for the weekday service. Off-peak trains all go up to 5 coaches and peak time trains go to 10

Minimal adaptations required (it says here, anyway). The main problem is Salisbury depot - even if there are no capacity issues everyone needs to be retrained.

I don't believe this "rumour" but it would be less impractical than many others.

.

 

[170401]

OK, here's the solution. 442s to run Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter. This releases SWT's 158s and 159s to First Great Western. FGW release a few 150s for Romsey services and Lymington.

If it's not possible to electrify third rail to Salisbury and Exeter (and I've read elsewhere that there's an issue around getting electrical power to the route) then a group of the new revamped Class 73s are brought in to haul the 442's. Preferably the third rail goes to Salisbury and the electro-diesel takes over there; otherwise the loco would have to take over at Basingstoke. If there isn't capacity there for locos to attach and detach then extend the third rail for a mile or so west of Worting Junction and do the changeover there.


.

That's probably the most sensible suggestion to date, especially if they electrified to Salisbury.

 

[antharro]

I thought there was to be no more 3rd rail and any new electification had to be overhead?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

OK, here's the solution. 442s to run Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter. This releases SWT's 158s and 159s to First Great Western. FGW release a few 150s for Romsey services and Lymington.
If it's not possible to electrify third rail to Salisbury and Exeter (and I've read elsewhere that there's an issue around getting electrical power to the route) then a group of the new revamped Class 73s are brought in to haul the 442's. Preferably the third rail goes to Salisbury and the electro-diesel takes over there; otherwise the loco would have to take over at Basingstoke. If there isn't capacity there for locos to attach and detach then extend the third rail for a mile or so west of Worting Junction and do the changeover there. There are 24 class 442 units so with 20 or 21 in service at any time there are enough for the weekday service. Off-peak trains all go up to 5 coaches and peak time trains go to 10 Minimal adaptations required (it says here, anyway). The main problem is Salisbury depot - even if there are no capacity issues everyone needs to be retrained.

I don't believe this "rumour" but it would be less impractical than many others.

Much as I admire the effort that you have put into this posting, especially noting the areas to which you so allude, whilst noting that the title of this thread concerns the hypothetical transfer of Class 442 units to the Northern franchise and being also mindful of that wonderful new thread that has appeared concerning the DfT's seemingly total lack of knowledge where settlements on the British rail network are, e.g. Plymouth stated to be in the North West, Manchester to be in the North East, etc, etc, perhaps the comments concerning Basingstoke, Salisbury, Romsey and Lymington could be also viewed as being part of the Northern franchise referred to in the title of this thread by using the self-same DfT geographical logic.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought there was to be no more 3rd rail and any new electification had to be overhead?

i'd heard similar... but it might make sense to shift any non-life-expired 3rd-rail equipment to Merseyside (where linespeed/capacity is less of an issue) and avoid needing dual-voltage trainsets for Merseyrail for a while... and use the DC equipment for extensions to Wigan/Helsby/Preston/Wrexham...

DISCLAIMER: I hadn't read the last few posts in the thread, meaning my will to live hadn't already been entirely sapped!

 

[starrymarkb]

OK, here's the solution. 442s to run Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter. This releases SWT's 158s and 159s to First Great Western. FGW release a few 150s for Romsey services and Lymington.

If it's not possible to electrify third rail to Salisbury and Exeter (and I've read elsewhere that there's an issue around getting electrical power to the route) then a group of the new revamped Class 73s are brought in to haul the 442's. Preferably the third rail goes to Salisbury and the electro-diesel takes over there; otherwise the loco would have to take over at Basingstoke. If there isn't capacity there for locos to attach and detach then extend the third rail for a mile or so west of Worting Junction and do the changeover there.

There are 24 class 442 units so with 20 or 21 in service at any time there are enough for the weekday service. Off-peak trains all go up to 5 coaches and peak time trains go to 10

Minimal adaptations required (it says here, anyway). The main problem is Salisbury depot - even if there are no capacity issues everyone needs to be retrained.

I don't believe this "rumour" but it would be less impractical than many others.

.

Or just accept that if a train with recycled components is replaced by an all new build then parts of that train are going to have a reduced life.