Speculation: BR Class 442 - Northern Franchise

[jon0844]

It's the doors that are the problem. Plus arguably that most of the time the trains are near empty, yet can still run as 10 cars even at midnight!

 

[northwichcat]

It's the doors that are the problem. Plus arguably that most of the time the trains are near empty, yet can still run as 10 cars even at midnight!

Running 10 cars when 5 cars are sufficient is a diagramming issue which may not be solved by new stock. I don't know if the service you refer to may be 10 car because if it was 5 car there would need to be a separate ECS?

Narrow end doors for limited stop services are something I don't get. If the service has no intermediate calls then it means everyone's going to alight at the final station and it will take time to get everyone off, unless the train is more than half empty. Also, express service are more likely to have passengers with luggage whether they're an Airport service or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the doors that are the problem. Plus arguably that most of the time the trains are near empty, yet can still run as 10 cars even at midnight!

And the fact that the current refurb is a cheap, shoddy job that hasn't even cleaned the ground-in filth off the ceiling panels and grilles, and makes them look dingy and old inside, as well as a livery that looks like something out of the 1980s or early 1990s.

In modern Southern livery with GatEx branding added, and with a heavy interior refurb like the fGW HST (I know the seats and lighting are rather Marmite, but those can be fixed while still leaving no panel uncleaned/unpainted), they could be superb.

Neil

 

[Chris125]

A whole new traction package. OK not going beyond the third rail, but everything else is being spent, and it is very likely the traction package will outlive the body shells.

It's not a comparable situation - as well as being a much larger fleet the SWT 455s had already benefited from a comprehensive overhaul including a major refurb of the interior, and the reduced maintenance required by the new traction package helped the business case for the new Desiro fleet. Without that the investment may not have been justified, as there are no such plans for the Southern 455 fleet.

Chris

 

[samuelmorris]

But a lot of new stock is not tried and tested with loads of new problems. While currently used on totally inappropriate services, I agree that with a decent refurb they can be made to look every bit as good as other Intercity services given modern refits.

Agreed, but not in every case - where follow-on orders are possible (there are lots of new stock orders up at the moment or imminently being tendered that could be followed from in this case I suppose) is kind of what I was hinting at there.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You need to weigh up the cost of a major overhaul of the 442s:

• Replacement of the traction motors
• Possible complete rewire
• Possible replacement of the break system
• Strengthening of the motor car
• Installation of a pan well and pan
• Installation of a transformer
• Possible need to build a new motor car to deal with AC

against a new build of 444s (but with cabs that meet the current crash regs). A new build of 444s could also potentially have follow on orders from other TOCs:

• TPE (would an AC version of a 444 be a better choice then the 350s they currently use?
• LM (Any of their routes have express working with few stops)?)
• Any Scottish routes post electrification?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Narrow end doors for limited stop services are something I don't get. If the service has no intermediate calls then it means everyone's going to alight at the final station and it will take time to get everyone off, unless the train is more than half empty. Also, express service are more likely to have passengers with luggage whether they're an Airport service or not.

The reasons for end doors are simple.

1. There is normally a door from the vestibule into the interior of the coach. This means that passengers who are not boarding/alighting are less likely to get a cold blast when the doors are open.

2. Narrow end doors = more space in the coach itself. This normally means a more comfortable interior and also more seats.

1/3 and 2/3 doors are generally wider to allow for short but very regular stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yagainst a new build of 444s (but with cabs that meet the current crash regs). A new build of 444s could also potentially have follow on orders from other TOCs:

• TPE (would an AC version of a 444 be a better choice then the 350s they currently use?
• LM (Any of their routes have express working with few stops)?)
• Any Scottish routes post electrification?

A 5 or 6-car x 23m Class 444-a-like would fit the LM Crewe services quite well, I reckon.

Siemens won't build any more old-generation Desiros, though, it would have to be a Desiro City derivative.

Neil

 

[SpacePhoenix]

A 5 or 6-car x 23m Class 444-a-like would fit the LM Crewe services quite well, I reckon.

Siemens won't build any more old-generation Desiros, though, it would have to be a Desiro City derivative.

Neil

I can't see what would stop them, if the designs were done in CAD then all they need to do is update them for the new design of cabs, manufacturer the jigs (probably using CAM) and then start production. It would be down to if any TOC would pay them enough to justify it

 

[Fincra5]

I'm currently sat on a 168 from High Wycombe.. Can't help but feel Chiltern need more coaches. Probably been mentioned already but couldn't 442s be Chilternised. Remove the 3rd rail gubbins to pair them with a 67/68 loco. Boom 5 car trains without the need for DVTs. The odd trailer car could also be slotted in to make the 442 6 or 7 cars.

 

[Chris125]

I can't see what would stop them, if the designs were done in CAD then all they need to do is update them for the new design of cabs, manufacturer the jigs (probably using CAM) and then start production. It would be down to if any TOC would pay them enough to justify it

The whole design is out of date, it really wouldn't make any sense.

 

[t_star2001uk]

I'm currently sat on a 168 from High Wycombe.. Can't help but feel Chiltern need more coaches. Probably been mentioned already but couldn't 442s be Chilternised. Remove the 3rd rail gubbins to pair them with a 67/68 loco. Boom 5 car trains without the need for DVTs. The odd trailer car could also be slotted in to make the 442 6 or 7 cars.

If only it were that easy. To add to your above list there would also be...

1. AAR multiple working cables and the associated conversion from blue star.
2. Reinstate the ETS cables that were allegedly removed/ isolated.
3. Train all of the drivers at Marylebone, Birmingham and Stourbridge.

 

[CosherB]

If only it were that easy. To add to your above list there would also be...

1. AAR multiple working cables and the associated conversion from blue star.
2. Reinstate the ETS cables that were allegedly removed/ isolated.
3. Train all of the drivers at Marylebone, Birmingham and Stourbridge.

also, the Chiltern DVTs are now fitted with diesel engines to provide overnight hotel power.

 

[Class377/5]

I can't see what would stop them, if the designs were done in CAD then all they need to do is update them for the new design of cabs, manufacturer the jigs (probably using CAM) and then start production. It would be down to if any TOC would pay them enough to justify it

Siemens have said no more Desiro UK models. That includes the 350, 450, 444 and 185. Now what's on offer is Desiro City. Let's not forget the 23m 380 is based on the Desiro City platform. Personally Id think they would suit TPE.

 

[cjmillsnun]

If only it were that easy. To add to your above list there would also be...

1. AAR multiple working cables and the associated conversion from blue star.
2. Reinstate the ETS cables that were allegedly removed/ isolated.
3. Train all of the drivers at Marylebone, Birmingham and Stourbridge.

Slight correction.

1. AAR multiple working cables and the associated conversion from SR 27 wire
2. No allegedly about it.

ETS jumper clearly there on pic above, plugged into dummy receptacle.

ETS cable not there. Dummy receptacle still there.
3. Re-wire coaches to standard Mk3 They are anything but (this being why the ETS never worked)
4. Train drivers.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Slight correction.

1. AAR multiple working cables and the associated conversion from SR 27 wire
2. No allegedly about it.

ETS jumper clearly there on pic above, plugged into dummy receptacle.

ETS cable not there. Dummy receptacle still there.
3. Re-wire coaches to standard Mk3 They are anything but (this being why the ETS never worked)
4. Train drivers.

I stand corrected......

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Siemens have said no more Desiro UK models. That includes the 350, 450, 444 and 185. Now what's on offer is Desiro City. Let's not forget the 23m 380 is based on the Desiro City platform. Personally Id think they would suit TPE.

Looking at a pic of the inside of a 380 around by the doors, do you think a vestibule door could be squeezed in where the glass panels are between the door area and the seating area?

I've not had any luck trying to find a floor/seating plan of a 380 (the only sort of seating plan that I can find is for the plane variety) to see that is at the ends of each coach between the doors and the end of the coach

 

[Class377/5]

Looking at a pic of the inside of a 380 around by the doors, do you think a vestibule door could be squeezed in where the glass panels are between the door area and the seating area?

I've not had any luck trying to find a floor/seating plan of a 380 (the only sort of seating plan that I can find is for the plane variety) to see that is at the ends of each coach between the doors and the end of the coach

While I'm not 100% sure on the 380s but guessing you mean reduce the door width?

 

[physics34]

Slight correction.

1. AAR multiple working cables and the associated conversion from SR 27 wire
2. No allegedly about it.

Good gosh they looked so good in NSE livery didnt they?!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Good gosh they looked so good in NSE livery didnt they?!

They did.

They also looked good in SWT Express livery.

 

[Olaf]

Conversion to ac would be ideal for TPE on Liverpool/Manchester-Scotland and Liverpool-Newcastle possibly extended to Edinburgh post electrification where IC standard is required on such long journeys not being provided by stop-gap 350/4s.

With the current winging over the 319 cascade, I don't think even Genghis Khan would be brave enough to propose that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nobody can say without stripping out a couple of coaches to check on corrosion.

I think the coaches were stripped down when they were deployed to the Gatwick Express services. There is some background on the related threads.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And to play devil's advocate. How much is being spent on Porterbrook's (SWT's) 455s?

A whole new traction package. OK not going beyond the third rail, but everything else is being spent, and it is very likely the traction package will outlive the body shells.

The cost savings make the project self-financing within a relatively few years.

Is there any proposal were the units would remain in service sufficiently long enough to recoup the capital investment costs?

 

[northwichcat]

Rumour DRS have been asked to provide costings for use of 68s on Liverpool-Newcastle services for the next franchise. Hopefully if true it's for enough sets to provide a half-hourly service meaning the 6tph can happen and still allow adequate capacity on other services using 185s.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The cost savings make the project self-financing within a relatively few years.

Is there any proposal were the units would remain in service sufficiently long enough to recoup the capital investment costs?

Note I was playing devil's advocate. I agree that unless Angel Trains follows Porterbrook into retractioning their 458s, and doing the 442s as part of that programme, there is just no way it can be financially viable.

 

[The Ham]

Siemens have said no more Desiro UK models. That includes the 350, 450, 444 and 185. Now what's on offer is Desiro City. Let's not forget the 23m 380 is based on the Desiro City platform. Personally Id think they would suit TPE.

One of the main reasons for offering only the Desiro City is that it is cheaper (by about 1/3) than the original Desiro trains to maintain. This could be enough to scuppere any major rebuild of older units, especially if there was the need to convert them to something else (I.e. from 3rd rail to OHLE) for which they were never originally designed.

 

[al.currie93]

Rumour DRS have been asked to provide costings for use of 68s on Liverpool-Newcastle services for the next franchise. Hopefully if true it's for enough sets to provide a half-hourly service meaning the 6tph can happen and still allow adequate capacity on other services using 185s.

Defintely not gonna complain, but if true, DRS would seem to be taking on quite a lot of passenger services from the franchised TOCs, which could actually be considered as a stealth-nationalisation :P

 

[47802]

Rumour DRS have been asked to provide costings for use of 68s on Liverpool-Newcastle services for the next franchise. Hopefully if true it's for enough sets to provide a half-hourly service meaning the 6tph can happen and still allow adequate capacity on other services using 185s.

Personally I think that might just be a contingency if Network Rail don't get Liverpool - Manchester electrification going by May, and even if its for the new franchise that may just be a contingency to deal with the loss of the remaining 170's until Blackpool electrification is complete, I guess it could be proposed as a longer term solution by the short listed bidders pending TPX electrification.

 

[glbotu]

Rumour DRS have been asked to provide costings for use of 68s on Liverpool-Newcastle services for the next franchise. Hopefully if true it's for enough sets to provide a half-hourly service meaning the 6tph can happen and still allow adequate capacity on other services using 185s.

68s? What will they be hauling? The current 185 services terminate in platform 5 at Newcastle, which is a pretty short platform, I haven't seen anything longer than 4 cars in there. Surely any LHCS will also struggle with dwell times in the busier sections of the route.

 

[northwichcat]

68s? What will they be hauling?

I've no idea. Maybe it's a DfT cutback to squeeze 3 carriages worth of passengers on to a loco. More seriously the loco is the expensive part of a loco-hauled formation so acquiring the costs for the loco is probably the most important part.

Surely any LHCS will also struggle with dwell times in the busier sections of the route.

Based on current timings: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62779/2015/01/30 Victoria, Leeds and York shouldn't have any issues. Durham may be an issue but it appears in the working timetable the train leaves Durham later than in the public timetable as it is.

 

[sprinterguy]

68s? What will they be hauling? The current 185 services terminate in platform 5 at Newcastle, which is a pretty short platform, I haven't seen anything longer than 4 cars in there. Surely any LHCS will also struggle with dwell times in the busier sections of the route.

TPE services generally use platform 9. It can (just) accommodate 5 x 23 metre carriages.

Platform 5 is half of one face of the southernmost "regional" island platform.

 

[joeykins82]

Maybe they'll be hauling some surplus 319s around non-electrified routes?