Staff attitude to PRIV Boxes and Dating them

[Urban Gateline]

I'm wondering, what is everyone's attitude to PRIV boxes?

The rules are that PRIV boxes (held by Safeguarded staff only) should be dated before travel.

However I get the impression that many rail staff will not make the PRIV holder date a box but will just allow them to travel "Free". This fits with the view that we are one Railway and look out for each other.

To on train staff, RPI's and Barrier staff, how do you act when a PRIV holder is travelling however hasn't dated a box on their PRIV? Would you ever consider issuing a penalty fare or full price ticket?

I am a TOCNE, therefore do not get these boxes, so although my own attitude to them at the moment is to not make a fuss as we are all staff (or dependants!) I may change my attitude depending on others' opinions on here!

 

[Clip]

I know a couple of guards who make them date their boxes when they meet them - I think just out of spite for not getting them themselves..

 

[GPR]

Too right they should be dating them.
Especially dependants.
10 free trips anywhere in the country should be enough to not have to abuse the great benefit that the holders of the passes receive.
I can't comment on handing out fines as i'm not a guard/RPI.

 

[Clip]

Kids maybe but for staff who still work in the industry or are retired I see no problem with. They've done their time and paid their dues and I respect that enough to let them travel for nowt.

Most companies give their staff benefits and I see this as no different really with the added bonus of rail staff looking out for another and giving them a bit extra too by not filling it in.

 

[RJ]

I may change my attitude depending on others' opinions on here!

Why? The only people you need to impress are those who pay your wages. If they bestow the power of discretion upon you then you do whatever makes you happy.

To be honest, I don't buy into the whole brotherhood thing. Quite a few staff have been grossly unfair to me when I have boarded at an unstaffed station and went straight to them to buy a discounted ticket. It got so ridiculous that ATOC had to issue a nationwide brief encouraging guards to engage their brain and sell Priv tickets to staff who could not obtain one before boarding instead of withdrawing Privs and doing other staff over.

Quite a few guards working for a certain TOC I commute with seems to have some sort of vendetta against the TOC I worked for and one of their ilk took great pleasure in withdrawing a Priv that was merely sitting in my wallet not being used, because I was using a YP discounted ticket (purchased from her) that she reckoned was not valid on her train.

Before that, another one unsuccessfully attempted to withdraw my Priv and demanded my employment details which I refused to provide. Despite it being 8pm, she was able to obtain my home depot, grade and pay number from an unknown source and said she'd be reporting me. That time, I boarded from an unstaffed station and had asked to buy a Flexi Rover + extension ticket to London. She didn't want to sell these to me and I didn't want to buy the through SOR. This stalemate was the cause of the problem. She spent over one hour on me, despite having to get up every 10 minutes to dispatch the train from other shacks where people probably wanted tickets. In the end it was a free ride as the UFN she issued was cancelled and I got all of my money back. My employers, her back office colleagues and various figures in the industry thought this was comical. The consensus was that staff shouldn't be treating others with contempt. As stated ATOC did make a point of telling guards to just sell the damn ticket to staff

 

[Ferret]

....one of their ilk took great pleasure in withdrawing a Priv that was merely sitting in my wallet not being used, because I was using a YP discounted ticket (purchased from her) that she reckoned was not valid on her train.

You what?! Why did you hand it over would be my first question?! And to be honest, that should be a disciplinary matter - you can't just withdraw a priv because you feel like it! Were I a manager, I'd have no hesitation in dishing out a Form 1 for that.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I too am a TOC NE, and for me to get free travel on anything other than my own company's trains I have to ask before boarding and hope the guard is feeling nice. I do not resent the fact that protected staff get the free travel facility, however what I do resent is the fact that so many abuse it - both current and former staff and their families, treating it like an unlimited free travel facility and getting stroppy and giving it the "we are all one railway" lecture when challenged. Now I do subscribe to the view that we are all one railway, but sadly, until such time as we all get the same facilities I am not going to allow some people to travel around the place getting unlimited days free travel whilst I have to either pay or hope the guard is in a good mood.

As a result, I adopt the following-
ALL STAFF, both protected and new entrants:
If they approach me and ask for a lift, before boarding, then they will be allowed to travel free without the need to date a box or purchase a ticket.

Protected staff: If protected staff card holders just sit on the train, and show me an undated travel card, without asking prior to boarding and having made no effort to date a box (i.e. Just expecting to get a free ride) then they will have a box cancelled out and will be asked to complete the next available date box with the correct date.

TOC NE: If they just take a seat, without first having asked for free travel, and just show their pass expecting to get free travel, they will be required to purchase a ticket, normally at PRIV rate however.

All of the above does not apply to holders of STAFF* travel cards for another local TOC running on the same routes, with whom there is a semi official reciprocal travel agreement. (* - does not include station adopters and other clingers on).

 

[MichaelAMW]

They've done their time and paid their dues and I respect that enough to let them travel for nowt.

What do you mean by "paid their dues?" If a person has had a reasonably long railway career then they will already have perhaps 16 or 20 free boxes *and* only have to pay a quarter of the price for the rest. Probably free on their own company's trains too, if they are still working. Why on Earth shouldn't they be paying their fare? The concession is the boxes and the priv rate, not unbridled free travel.

On a different but related note, what do people think of the situation where staff with standard-class travel facilities are allowed to sit in first *and* enjoy the freebies that are available on the inter-city routes? Even those with 1st-class facilities are supposed to refuse those, apart from tea and coffee.

 

[theblackwatch]

I am a TOCNE, therefore do not get these boxes, so although my own attitude to them at the moment is to not make a fuss as we are all staff (or dependants!) I may change my attitude depending on others' opinions on here!

Is it not a case of a clear intent to avoid paying the correct fare when a member of staff does this (which, some 16 minutes earlier in a different thread, you said you had no sympathy for someone who had done this). Should one 'effer' be treat more favourably than another?

 

[dk1]

Slightly off topic, i started to board a VT service at Lichfield TV a few weeks ago but the train manager shouted at us not to board as this train was set down only. I said but you go to Crewe dont you & he replied yes but you cannot board this train here. I explained that we where rail staff. How different his approach was. Oh thats fine then jump aboard

Oh & yes, i had dated my box

 

[HSTEd]

I have had trouble on South West trains with the gateline staff refusing me on the second day of the 48 hour period that we are apparently allowed....

Never had this trouble anywhere else.

 

[trc666]

On our gateline we tend to have a lot of dependants turning up from trains who have 'forgotten' to fill in their boxes (forgotten = couldn't be bothered) - the other day a right snotty twentysomething girl walked up to me and just waved her dependant box PRIV right in my face without even saying a word to me, not one box had been filled in. I asked her why hadn't she filled it in and she came up with 'Oh I never bother filling these in'. I made her fill it in and then let her out with the warning that if we had revenue with us she could have had it taken off her. I know this might come across as me being a right jobsworth but she had an attitude on her, she gets free travel without lifting a finger and thinks she can get away with abusing it, unfortunately gateline staff are not allowed to cross out boxes or withdraw PRIVs, all we can do is ask them to fill it in.

 

[Greenback]

My perception of PRIV's when i was on the railway was that staff were less likely to 'forget' to date their boxes than their partners or dependents. Presumably this was due tot he staff being more aware of the consequences of misuse.

 

[Clip]

What do you mean by "paid their dues?" If a person has had a reasonably long railway career then they will already have perhaps 16 or 20 free boxes *and* only have to pay a quarter of the price for the rest. Probably free on their own company's trains too, if they are still working. Why on Earth shouldn't they be paying their fare? The concession is the boxes and the priv rate, not unbridled free travel.

Put it this way, theres an awful lot of people work or used to work on the railway for **** wages and **** T&Cs. Whilst im a very staunch man for a lot of things in this business I realise that free travel is something that we all should be allowed - whether privatised or not. Ill uphold that.


What my revenue staff doing is something else but I can do it and I dont care whether you like it nor my employers like it.I can and do do this. I always will.


I may wind you up a bit more by saying that if im at one of my stations and I see someone with a Priv trying to purchase a ticket ill even let them travel free too.


Me only bug bear is NR track staff who assume they can travel for free without even asking my staff. Thats taking the mick.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Put it this way, theres an awful lot of people work or used to work on the railway for **** wages and **** T&Cs. Whilst im a very staunch man for a lot of things in this business I realise that free travel is something that we all should be allowed - whether privatised or not. Ill uphold that.

What my revenue staff doing is something else but I can do it and I dont care whether you like it nor my employers like it.I can and do do this. I always will.

I may wind you up a bit more by saying that if im at one of my stations and I see someone with a Priv trying to purchase a ticket ill even let them travel free too.

Me only bug bear is NR track staff who assume they can travel for free without even asking my staff. Thats taking the mick.

That's a strangely angry and self-righteous reply, but it doesn't wind me up.

Lots of people work for poor wages and T&C, and nobody is forced to work in any particular job. The fact is that the RORA and byelaws require a ticket to be held and I doubt it is intended that the discretion allowed to members of staff, or the notion of permission to travel that one may be given when being instructed by a member of staff, should stretch to giving people free travel based merely on your personal views. You might indeed be able to get away with it but I find it hard to see how you can justify it, however, in terms of the various published rules and regs. As I said, the concession is boxes plus priv.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Put it this way, theres an awful lot of people work or used to work on the railway for **** wages and **** T&Cs. Whilst im a very staunch man for a lot of things in this business I realise that free travel is something that we all should be allowed - whether privatised or not. Ill uphold that.


What my revenue staff doing is something else but I can do it and I dont care whether you like it nor my employers like it.I can and do do this. I always will.


I may wind you up a bit more by saying that if im at one of my stations and I see someone with a Priv trying to purchase a ticket ill even let them travel free too.


Me only bug bear is NR track staff who assume they can travel for free without even asking my staff. Thats taking the mick.

I agree entirely. This Safeguarded-nonsafeguarded garbage is ridiculous, if you have a priv. Put your money away and don't waste a box.

 

[6Gman]

Some of these comments are very generous, but as a protected PT holder (20 years service, 20 boxes + unlimited quarter fare) I really do prefer it when we all play by the rules! The privilege/ perk /whatever you want to call it is pretty generous as it stands.

If I have forgotten to date a box (and it would be a genuine oversight, not a deliberate deception) I'd be very grateful to be allowed to date it there and then, but really wouldn't object to crossing out a box and using the next one as laid down in the conditions.

 

[grid56126]

Some of these comments are very generous, but as a protected PT holder (20 years service, 20 boxes + unlimited quarter fare) I really do prefer it when we all play by the rules! The privilege/ perk /whatever you want to call it is pretty generous as it stands.

If I have forgotten to date a box (and it would be a genuine oversight, not a deliberate deception) I'd be very grateful to be allowed to date it there and then, but really wouldn't object to crossing out a box and using the next one as laid down in the conditions.

Similar to you sir. 29 years service, 20 boxes and priv as well as TOC (group) travel for me, my wife and two dependant "students". Let's not forget the continental / Eurostar concessions.

I, like others believe that every body should be entitled, but we live in an age where the railway runs as a business that must have a return. Let's face it the whole Virgin/First debate of late is all downto cash.

I have NEVER and will NEVER prat about with something that is too valuable to me and my family. I have NEVER altered a box or not filled one in. I have had one box altered by a sleeper attendant who thought he was doing me a favour. If he hadn't done such an impressive job I would have been pretty unhappy.

I know people who have done it and others that even expect it, similarly peole who "expect" first class and even ask for it.

I have two kids who are at "that" age where I have to be that bit more careful as they are at school / uni and we live in an age where every single thing they do is open to scamming / cheating etc just because that's what they do to save money (I guess we have all been there). The second I become aware that they have, in any way attempted to misuse their tickets they will have them taken away by me unconditionally. I cannot afford to lose them. What makes me really sick is that a number of people who have boasted about this sort of thing in the past have never used all their boxes anyway.

What chance do you think there is of other people being given boxes when ATOC / TOC management see threads like this on here and elsewhere. If career railway workers think it's OK to do, imagine what a huge influx of new staff would be like.

Getting something for nothing has been around since the Romans invaded and took what was not theirs (probably before that) but we live in a society that is definitely getting worse and worse wanting more and more for nothing. Some people really do need to look over their shoulder a bit more and appreciate what they have. I have zero sympathy for any body in the industry who get caught scamming, let alone publicly boasting about it on fora watched by the industry.

Grid

 

[455driver]

Some of these comments are very generous, but as a protected PT holder (20 years service, 20 boxes + unlimited quarter fare) I really do prefer it when we all play by the rules! The privilege/ perk /whatever you want to call it is pretty generous as it stands.

I always find it funny when the box holders want us "all to play by the rules", you know those rules that you voted in which gave you a slightly bigger pay-rise back in privytisation year I think it was but stopped the new entry lot (IE me) getting the same travel concessions as you get. All in it together, yeah right.

Maybe now would be a good time to have a vote to do away with the boxes to give everyone a small payrise? Gets my vote!

I always approach the guard before boarding and if I get a free ride I am thankful, if he lets me buy a priv on board I am thankful and if I have to buy a full price ticket on board I will do (although not be so thankful) and will not "kick off" as I heard one chap do who had got on at the same station as me (he hadnt approached the guard and had a right snotty attitude as well), I work on the one railway principle and will always offer assistance if I think it beneficial no matter what colour the train is.

The priv rate isnt worth much now as it can be cheaper to buy a public advance ticket if you know what your travel plans are. I have done this a few times and get the "why did you buy that you could have travelled for nought" from the guard.

Can anyone explain the sense in european rail workers travelling for free in our country (and us all travelling for free in theirs) but we have to pay in our country?

 

[RJ]

You what?! Why did you hand it over would be my first question?! And to be honest, that should be a disciplinary matter - you can't just withdraw a priv because you feel like it! Were I a manager, I'd have no hesitation in dishing out a Form 1 for that.

There was a police officer on board and she had no reservations threatening to get him involved then subsequently calling him over. Even though he admitted he knew nothing about tickets, he sided with the guard and ordered me to hand over whatever she asked for. It's a long story but my unrelenting politeness was tested when she demanded all concessionary passes I had including my TfL issued Staff Pass and even requested to seize my brand new Bite Card.

Railway fraternity my a*se - seems I missed out on preferential, or even fair treatment on many occasions. Wouldn't like to specualte why though! The irony is, I always go out of my way to fulfil my responsibilites!

Another rather bizarre tale. I was in my home area in South London and got off at a station where my Priv season ticket was valid. However, the barrier didn't open. I showed my ticket to the gateline assistant and asked to be let through. He said no as he believed that the ticket wasn't valid there. He wanted me to pay an excess fare. I declined. There was a stalemate, so I called the police on the gateline assistant.

He said that if I had just shown the Priv and asked nicely to be let through, he would have let me through. But he claimed that I was trying to get around fraudelently with a season ticket not valid on that line so he felt compelled to charge me. The guy was a numbnuts.

 

[Ferret]

There was a police officer on board and she had no reservations threatening to get him involved then subsequently calling him over. Even though he admitted he knew nothing about tickets, he sided with the guard and ordered me to hand over whatever she asked for. It's a long story but my unrelenting politeness was tested when she demanded all concessionary passes I had including my TfL issued Staff Pass and even requested to seize my brand new Bite Card.

Railway fraternity my a*se - seems I missed out on preferential, or even fair treatment on many occasions. Wouldn't like to specualte why though! The irony is, I always go out of my way to fulfil my responsibilites!

Most plod have no clue about tickets, but I'd be annoyed if a simple explanation of 'that pass has nothing to do with it because....' should suffice. Nevertheless, I've seen more than enough there to say that Guard deserved a Form One and a severe reprimand as a result. Unbelievable lack of knowledge.

 

[yorkie]

Railway fraternity my a*se - seems I missed out on preferential, or even fair treatment on many occasions. Wouldn't like to specualte why though! The irony is, I always go out of my way to fulfil my responsibilites!

That's because you chose to travel with the same company that pursued someone over allegedly not filling in boxes correctly when they were 11 years old and travelling with a different Train Company. The same Company whose staff sometimes deny that the Routeing Guide even exists... (I could go on...) So, in all honesty, nothing surprises me, especially given the antics of their parent company's founder and his foul-mouthed, wayward son.

EMT are ruthless, and some of their mainline guards are too. If only there was an effective regulator/ombudsman to turn to...

 

[Darandio]

I always find it funny when the box holders want us "all to play by the rules", you know those rules that you voted in which gave you a slightly bigger pay-rise back in privytisation year I think it was but stopped the new entry lot (IE me) getting the same travel concessions as you get. All in it together, yeah right.

Not every box holder was still in a position to take part in that vote.......

 

[34D]

I may change my attitude depending on others' opinions on here!

Why don't you do a trip (ideally away from the NSE area) and see how well you get looked after?

and even requested to seize my brand new Bite Card.

Lol

 

[RJ]

That's because you chose to travel with the same company that pursued someone over allegedly not filling in boxes correctly when they were 11 years old and travelling with a different Train Company. The same Company whose staff sometimes deny that the Routeing Guide even exists... (I could go on...) So, in all honesty, nothing surprises me, especially given the antics of their founder and his foul-mouthed, wayward son.

EMT are ruthless, and some of their mainline guards are too. If only there was an effective regulator/ombudsman to turn to...

Ah that isn't necessary! Just do what I did and favourable outcomes will prevail .

 

[Yew]

even requested to seize my brand new Bite Card.

But a bite card is not property of the railways it is owned by the SSP Group. Furthermore the T's and C's make to mention of withdrawing a bite card, but of Termination of validity, I assume electronicaly.

 

[RJ]

Well she thought the had the right to go through all of the cards in my wallet. By virtue of the civil liberty that is free speech, she was entitled to ask but I wasn't legally obliged to give her anything but my name and address.

 

[Clip]

That's a strangely angry and self-righteous reply, but it doesn't wind me up.

Lots of people work for poor wages and T&C, and nobody is forced to work in any particular job. The fact is that the RORA and byelaws require a ticket to be held and I doubt it is intended that the discretion allowed to members of staff, or the notion of permission to travel that one may be given when being instructed by a member of staff, should stretch to giving people free travel based merely on your personal views. You might indeed be able to get away with it but I find it hard to see how you can justify it, however, in terms of the various published rules and regs. As I said, the concession is boxes plus priv.

Im going to be curt again and say I dont care. And you're right no-one is forced to work in a low paid job and can move should they so wish or are able too. If they want to come join the railway and have a little touch here and there when they want to travel long distance then hop on board - most of us will be welcoming to you all and afford you the same as we afford others.


RJ - Thats just a shocking story - did you ever find out what happened to her? I only travel about once a year with EMT so have no real idea of how they act but if thats the attitude of the staff then ill go the long way round to get somewhere then use them. Thats a shocking story.

 

[455driver]

Not every box holder was still in a position to take part in that vote.......

True of course, but it does grind a little that our supposed work colleagues voted for us to have worse conditions than them.

Oh just in case you think it is just sour grapes on my part, when I was a bus driver we had a similar situation where we could take a higher pay-rise if we voted that all new entrants went on a lower pay-rate for 2 years, but we voted (by a very large margin) for the lower percentage offer which kept the new entrants on the same as us! We were only on £6.40 an hour at the time as well.
Just shows that some people have morals and some dont!

The me me me attitude that the old hands moan about which is so prevalent in this country now started on their watch, in fact on the railways it was started by them.

 

[RPI]

With me, if you ask before you get on, fine, if you just sit down then if i'm in a good mood I might let you travel, if not then I may charge you a PRIV. Personally speaking I always buy a PRIV and wouldn't have the cheek to just get on the train of another operator and hope for the best, I'd be too embarrased if they said no lol. It all boils down to manors really, sometimes when I see the station cleaners who work for a contractor on the trains on their day off I don't mind as long as they ask.