Sticky situation resulting in Travel Irregularity Report

[moneybrains]

Hi folks,

First time posting here, any help would be very much appreciated. Every other weekend I make a journey from Nottingham to Oxford, and each time I purchase an off peak return ticket. Whilst returning today, and in a hurry to catch my train, I tried to use my return ticket at the barriers at Oxford, except the barrier wouldn't open. The ticket inspector said that the ticket had been used, however I said that this couldn't be true. He took my ticket and went to the ticket office and printed out a report, displaying that the ticket had already been used.
On closer inspection of the ticket I realised that this was a previous return ticket I had purchased, specifically from last week. I admitted that this was the wrong ticket, but made it clear that I had no intention of travelling with it now I realised. I asked if I could purchase a new ticket but the ticket man said no and that he would have to take down my details so he could fill out a travel/ticket irregularity report. He said that I should receive a notice in the post regarding any punishment/fees.
I'll admit that, irrespective of any excuse, technically I tried to travel on an invalid ticket (though this was a genuine mistake, and as soon as I realised I asked to pay for a new ticket). How much trouble am I in here and what advice might you be able to offer? A little on my background: I'm a student (also an Officer Cadet for the Army Reserves) and though I'm strapped for cash, I wouldn't commit fraud over a ticket (or anything else for that matter).

 

[soil]

If your story is true, you would have had a valid ticket in your possession in addition to the previously used one. Since it appears that you did not, it looks like a pretty open and shut case of attempting to travel without paying for a ticket.

I would await further correspondence from the train company before taking any further action. I assume you have yet to receive a letter from them.

 

[moneybrains]

This only happened today, so I haven't received anything from them.

 

[moneybrains]

Who would be prosecuting me in the first place, any way? The ticket man was First Great Western, but I was travelling via Cross Country trains.

 

[ainsworth74]

Where was the unused return portion?

 

[moneybrains]

Not in my possession at the time. I had a pile of tickets on my desk at home, some used and some unused, and took the wrong one. I'm current trying to find the return ticket. Can anyone give me any idea what I am up against here?

 

[jon0844]

It seems that once you realised you'd given the used ticket, you'd simply find the unused one and be on your way.

I'm confused as to why that didn't then happen.

 

[fowler9]

Technically surely you made a mistake and didn't actually travel without a valid ticket. Surely prosecuting someone for that would be like prosecuting someone for thinking about committing a crime and not doing it. Thats why the barriers are there isn't it, not just to convict a load of people.

 

[Mojo]

Not in my possession at the time. I had a pile of tickets on my desk at home, some used and some unused, and took the wrong one.

I don't follow. Home is presumably Nottingham yet you were trying to enter the station at Oxford? How did you get to Oxford at the start of the weekend?

 

[fowler9]

It seems that once you realised you'd given the used ticket, you'd simply find the unused one and be on your way.

I'm confused as to why that didn't then happen.

Unless you have a wallet full of used tickets like me and have binned the wrong one. He has made a bit of a mistake, not committed a crime.

 

[moneybrains]

I do have various tickets (on my desk, not my wallet) as I am seeking refunds for cancelled trains and also have tickets for future journeys. Assuming that they see this as the ticket man did, that I was attempting to travel without a valid ticket, what's the situation? Who does the Travel Irregularity Report get sent to? Should I expect a penalty fare, a fine, prosecution? I've never had a criminal record, never had any problems with the police or indeed tried to travel with an invalid ticket.

 

[455driver]

So you got an off peak return from Nottingham, used the out portion to get to Oxford and then tried to use an already used return portion to get home, yes!

If that is the case where was the return part that you purchased with the out part of the 2 part return?

Surely you would have had it with you and so could have used that.

But instead you asked if you could buy a new ticket.

Why did you have the out part (which you had used) but not the return part?

Unless you have a wallet full of used tickets like me and have binned the wrong one. He has made a bit of a mistake, not committed a crime.

How can you have a wallet full of tickets but binned the unused one?
You either throw them away (and so wouldnt have a wallet full) or you keep them all (and so wouldnt have thrown away the unused one)!

 

[redbutton]

So just to be clear-

You had not yet travelled on any trains on your return leg. You were attempting to enter the station, but the barriers rejected your ticket.

If that's the case, I'm not sure there's actually anything they can charge you with. You didn't enter the controlled area of the station or board a train without paying.

But I'll leave it to an actual expert to comment (which I am not).

 

[moneybrains]

That's right, not yet travelled on any of my return trains. Not got past the barrier. Immediately offered to pay for the fare on realisation that I was in possession of my old ticket.

 

[1e10]

I don't follow. Home is presumably Nottingham yet you were trying to enter the station at Oxford? How did you get to Oxford at the start of the weekend?

Sounds like this person has ordered tickets online or otherwise purchased prior to the date they were travelling. Collected their tickets and then put them on their disk with some other old used tickets. On the day of travel on the outward journey he has picked up the correct ticket for the outward journey but has mistakenly picked up an old/used ticket for the return journey.

So he was at Oxford looking to get home with the return journey and didn't realise he had picked up the incorrect ticket until the station staff were able to highlight it. His valid ticket is at home.

 

[moneybrains]

All of the above information is correct, I'm trying to find the ticket at the moment. This is the last thing I need right now, if they don't accept I had a valid ticket what are my options?

 

[455driver]

As far as the railways are concerned you didnt have a valid return ticket because otherwise you would have had it on you.

Where did you buy the tickets from?
When did you buy them (in relation to your outward journey)?
What did you do with your tickets between purchase and travel?
Why did you have the outbound but not the return parts?
Why would you split the tickets up, I always keep them all together but organised into outward and return parts, but always kept together.

 

[jon0844]

I really wouldn't worry. Given you keep them all, you'll definitely find it eventually.

There can't be that many old tickets amongst the new ones!

And if you bought them all online, you've also got the email receipts too.

 

[reb0118]

if they don't accept I had a valid ticket what are my options?

As you are.......

..........an Officer Cadet for the Army Reserves.

Then there is only one honourable option. Resign your commission and join the French Foreign Legion. A few months on the Chad/Libyan border will soon make you forget any ticket irregularity forms!

In all seriousness I would not worry too much about this matter, yes it does have the potential to escalate but that will only happen if you do not cooperate will any investigation that may result. There are quite a few options available to the railway to deal with this matter. These range from prosecuting under the RoRA 1889 to taking no further action. Both of these extremes are unlikely and they will normally take a middle route esp. for a first "offence"

The railway will have to prove intent to prosecute you with the RoRA offence but this carries a recordable element. Any other penalty should not result in a record. See here for further details. Others may offer more detailed advice but in the meantime find that unused ticket!

As an aside to the forum: does presenting a valid return portion after being reported for attempting to use an invalid return portion negate the original offence?

 

[Squaddie]

As an aside to the forum: does presenting a valid return portion after being reported for attempting to use an invalid return portion negate the original offence?

Presenting a valid return portion afterwards proves nothing: as far as the TOC is concerned, the passenger may have been intending/hoping to use it at a later date had they got away with re-using the old ticket. (I'm not suggesting that this was the OP's intention).

 

[fowler9]

So you got an off peak return from Nottingham, used the out portion to get to Oxford and then tried to use an already used return portion to get home, yes!

If that is the case where was the return part that you purchased with the out part of the 2 part return?

Surely you would have had it with you and so could have used that.

But instead you asked if you could buy a new ticket.

Why did you have the out part (which you had used) but not the return part?



How can you have a wallet full of tickets but binned the unused one?
You either throw them away (and so wouldnt have a wallet full) or you keep them all (and so wouldnt have thrown away the unused one)!

Well we aren't all perfect, I have a number of unused tickets in my wallet and have on occasion binned the wrong one. We aren't all like you. It still doesn't sound like he has committed an offense to me. And anyway, even if he can find his old ticket that was valid what the hell would that prove? That he'd managed to find a ticket valid on that train that he wasn't on anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Come on folks, it sounds like this chap has been accused of not travelling on a train he didn't travel on whilst not having a ticket for it. No offence has been committed.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Well we aren't all perfect, I have a number of unused tickets in my wallet and have on occasion binned the wrong one. We aren't all like you. It still doesn't sound like he has committed an offense to me. And anyway, even if he can find his old ticket that was valid what the hell would that prove? That he'd managed to find a ticket valid on that train that he wasn't on anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Come on folks, it sounds like this chap has been accused of not travelling on a train he didn't travel on whilst not having a ticket for it. No offence has been committed.

Unfortunately while this wouldn't be an offence under the byelaws or break the NRCoC, RORA says "If any person travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;......". This may be construed as an attempt to travel, although the OP's "words and actions" seem to disprove intent (only my opinion). I'd advise OP to read the whole of Section 8.2.1 of http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71833

Its all part of the idiocy of having conflicting laws governing railway travel.

 

[sheff1]

No offence has been committed.

You (and everyone else here except the OP) do not know that. They attempted to travel but were prevented when the ticket was rejected. Only they know if there was any intent behind that attempt.

I would expect that, if having had the ticket rejected, the OP had immediately produced this weeks ticket he could have continued unhindered ..... but he didn't produce such a ticket and offered to pay for another which would ring alarm bells in any self respecting ticket checker.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm sorry that there have been a number of well intentioned, but less than accurate replies on this thread. As HebdenBridger correctly notes, the Regulation of Railways Act S.5.3 (a) Offence includes the words "or attempts to travel" and "with intent to avoid payment".

The first of those two conditions is satisfied by the apparent admission that moneybrains was attempting to travel; the second of those is satisfied by the passing off of an old, and presumably used, ticket in place of a valid ticket.
The good news for moneybrains is that the Inspector decided to issue a Travel Irregularity Report which does allow for an opportunity for the matter to be corrected by further Evidence - Evidence in the form of the alleged 'missing' but valid ticket. It seems to me that there is a possibility that if this 'missing' but valid ticket exists and can be presented in a timely manner, then the Railway Company might just accept it. Might. And might not.

Otherwise, I'm sorry to disagree so strongly with fowler9, but the 'after the event' excuse of having left the ticket at home is a story which is heard hundeds of times a week from passengers travelling without a valid ticket, and who appear even with hindsight, to be unable to produce those 'missing' tickets when given the opportunity. Squaddie illustrates other good reasons, based on real experience, for not accepting a ticket after the event.

I assume that moneybrains was allowed to travel but did not pay, so the fare remains unpaid. While the debt remains due, the passenger is at a disadvantage - the 'excuse' lacks the supporting evidence of the valid ticket, the fare hasn't been paid, an invalid ticket was presented when asked. I don't think it looks good at all.

As an aside to the forum: does presenting a valid return portion after being reported for attempting to use an invalid return portion negate the original offence?

By itself, no. There is adequate case Law of passengers presenting tickets which, in a variety of ways are deemed to be invalid - perhaps the most striking one is Browning v Floyd in which the passenger actually had the valid return ticket in his pocket, but he had been hoping to save it for another occasion and deliberately presented his wife's ticket instead. His Conviction under the Regulation of Railways Act was upheld on Appeal.

 

[bb21]

I imagine that if the story is entirely true, you would have the already purchased valid return portion with you still. Do you? It may help in supporting your case that you indeed did have a valid ticket but made a mistake.

Do be aware that tickets have the time they are printed on them these days, so a ticket printed after the incident would not really help in this respect.

Edit: It is good to know that DaveNewcastle agrees with this understanding.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

You (and everyone else here except the OP) do not know that. They attempted to travel but were prevented when the ticket was rejected. Only they know if there was any intent behind that attempt.

I suggest you read the paragraph on "intent" in Section 8.2.1 of http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71833, the law does not require mindreading, intent is proven by "words and actions".

I would expect that, if having had the ticket rejected, the OP had immediately produced this weeks ticket he could have continued unhindered ..... but he didn't produce such a ticket and offered to pay for another which would ring alarm bells in any self respecting ticket checker.

You really are a suspicious lot, if I'd brought the wrong ticket with me, I'd offer to buy a new one and reclaim. You would support a prosecution for this under the draconian and antiquated RoRA, when its not even an offence under the Byelaws or NRCoC? If so you would have to be more than suspicious, you would have to provide evidence to prove intent by the "words and actions" of the accused.

 

[londiscape]

I'm sorry that there have been a number of well intentioned, but less than accurate replies on this thread. As HebdenBridger correctly notes, the Regulation of Railways Act S.5.3 (a) Offence includes the words "or attempts to travel" and "with intent to avoid payment".

DISCLAIMER: I am a mere passenger - I am not a fares or railway legislation expert, so please do not construe the following as advice or as anything superseding the more knowledgeable members of this forum.

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Just had a look at S.3 RORA - while the initial part of the section 5.3 (a) seems to be satisfied "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare" does not the OP's offer to pay the fare upon the realisation that his return ticket was not valid negate the second part "with intent to avoid payment thereof"?

Surely if the OP has offered to pay the required fare instantaneously on realising a mistake, the intent is evidently not present?

Does the Inspector's denial of the opportunity to pay the required fare at this time negate the requirements of s 5.1 RORA: "Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started"

Point I'm trying to make - should not the Inspector have allowed the OP, on realising that the correct ticket could not be produced, to pay the correct fare, since at this point the OP had not actually travelled?

 

[island]

DISCLAIMER: I am a mere passenger - I am not a fares or railway legislation expert, so please do not construe the following as advice or as anything superseding the more knowledgeable members of this forum.

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Just had a look at S.3 RORA - while the initial part of the section 5.3 (a) seems to be satisfied "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare" does not the OP's offer to pay the fare upon the realisation that his return ticket was not valid negate the second part "with intent to avoid payment thereof"?

Surely if the OP has offered to pay the required fare instantaneously on realising a mistake, the intent is evidently not present?

Unfortunately, as DaveNewcastle specified, that isn't how the law works.

To the OP: You can't get a Penalty Fare, as CrossCountry doesn't do them. You have definitely committed a criminal offence under section 18 of the Railway Byelaws by entering a railway vehicle without having a valid ticket with you. It would also appear you may have committed a criminal offence under section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act for the reasons given previously. But if you can produce the unused ticket that you were going to use for your journey, it may count in your favour.

Unfortunately you will have to wait until you receive correspondence from FGW or XC before you can figure out what to do next. They may well offer to settle out of court on payment of the fare avoided and administrative charges.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Just had a look at S.3 RORA - . . .


Surely if the OP has offered to pay the required fare instantaneously on realising a mistake, the intent is evidently not present?

Let's try to answer this in context. Most people who attempt to travel without a ticket and who at some point are asked to produce one, will offer money to the Inspector so that they can buy a ticket.
If they hadn't been stopped and asked to produce a ticket, they wouldn't have paid.
Often, the lack of ticket is expressed as a surprise to the passenger (e.g. Oh, I must have dropped it/ I had it a minute ago/ I didn't see the Ticket Office/ I was distracted/ I thought I had it) in an attempt to demonstrate innocence.
Many people take this gamble every day, and very often they benefit from free travel.

The industry relies on the requirement to be in posession of a valid ticket before entering a train or platform, which makes it easy for inspectors to differentiate those who have paid and those who would only pay when challenged. (At this point, many on here point to those parts of the Country where it is, or has been, custom and practice to pay-on-board, but those circumstances don't appear to apply to this incident).

The requirement to be in possession of a valid ticket is expressed in the section of the Act you quoted: "having previously paid". 'Previously' is not 'negated' by 'offering to pay when challenged'.

There is ample Case Law to confirm this interpretation - it lies at the core of the first principles in the detection of fare evasion.
'Attempting to travel without having previously paid his fare' is satisfied when a passenger produces an expired and/or used ticket for the journey about to be taken.

 

[jon0844]

Slightly off topic, but a few weeks ago at Hatfield station I was waiting for my train and a man came to the gates and said 'Oh, I just threw away my ticket'. I thought 'here we go' and clearly the gateline man was already preparing to get his paperwork ready.

The man then said 'I didn't realise I needed it to exit' and that he'd go and look for it. Once more, it was a case of - he's going to either try and get on another train or walk down the platform and jump the fence.

But, no, he started to rummage through the bin just outside the ticket hall.. and came back in with an orange ticket that, amazingly, worked just fine so must have been his ticket!

Why oh why he'd thrown it away just 5-6 metres from a gate, which he'd have likely seen, we'll never know - but I am willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt on this as long as he comes back to say he found the correct ticket at home.

If said ticket, amongst all the other tickets kept in a huge pile (both old and new) suddenly disappears, then I'll be somewhat more suspicious!

It's an odd thread, as it has similarities to the one the other day where FCC were considering a prosecution against someone before travel for having an out of date, but unused, ticket. In that case, FCC didn't proceed with anything more than a request for the correct payment (the right decision IMO).

However, it's a lot different when the ticket presented was actually used, so I hope the OP isn't reading that and assuming the outcome here will be the same. Finding that original ticket seems to me the only way to have any chance.