Strange fare setter

[Mark Enderby]

While looking up fares from Warrington to Ulverston on brfares, I noticed all fares to stations between Carnforth and Foxfield are set by TfW! I guess they were previously Arriva Wales but is this accurate or an error in the database. I was wondering whether it was due to an anomaly on one of the franchise changes but can't thing which.

Cheers

Mark

 

[yorkie]

It's not a database error; it's an example of where a less appropriate TOC was allocated control of the flow. There are numerous other examples, past and present

 

[Paul Kelly]

I was wondering whether it was due to an anomaly on one of the franchise changes but can't thing which.

When the Regional Railways North West franchise (operated by First North Western) was split into Welsh and English parts, in 2004?

 

[Mark Enderby]

FNW might explain. In these instances I guess they have no incentive to provide offers or discount fares But do they get a share of the revenue if they set the fare?

LNW/WMT set the cheapest WBQ-CRE fare which is bizarre ... but handy. But Northern also do a CDR while there's nothing from Virgin.

Cheers

Mark

 

[CHAPS2034]

FNW might explain. In these instances I guess they have no incentive to provide offers or discount fares But do they get a share of the revenue if they set the fare?

LNW/WMT set the cheapest WBQ-CRE fare which is bizarre ... but handy. But Northern also do a CDR while there's nothing from Virgin.

Cheers

Mark

Don't worry Mark - fares are so complex, it's enough to make you want to do something simple like work out the provenance of the beer you have just bought.

 

[yorkie]

FNW might explain. In these instances I guess they have no incentive to provide offers or discount fares

The inter-available fares you refer to are the permanent, basic fares for that flow; there is absolutely nothing to stop any relevant operator introducing special offers and/or discounts in addition to these fares.

On the contrary; any operator who does set the fare has restrictions on introducing their own 'dedicated' fares, so if none of the relevant operators set the flow, that frees them all up to offer permanent dedicated fares if they wish. This is in addition to any temporary fares they wish to introduce.

But do they get a share of the revenue if they set the fare?

Revenue allocation ignores who sets the flow; it's determined by a system called 'ORCATS'.

There is plenty of reading material on this forum regarding ORCATS if you are interested:

Some previous threads that may be of interest:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-are-ticket-revenues-split-between-tocs-orcats.139220/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/article-on-orcats.64367/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-revenue-how-does-it-work.151070/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/train-companies-and-tickets.24514/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rail-revenue.16562/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/revenue-division-amongst-companies.56048/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/which-toc-gets-my-money.106272/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/orcats.51377/

LNW/WMT set the cheapest WBQ-CRE fare which is bizarre ... but handy. But Northern also do a CDR while there's nothing from Virgin.

If you can provide a link that would make it easier and avoid people having to look it up (also without looking it up, not everyone will know where these locations are); here is the link for the fares from Warrington Stns to Crewe: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=WBQ&dest=CRE

There is a "Not via Manchester" flow which is priced by West Midlands Trains (and is issued from Warrington Bank Quay specifically), while the "via Manchester" and "Any Permitted" fares are all set by Northern (and are issued from Warrington Stations, so also valid from Central)

The fact that Virgin don't price this flow means that the fares might be more reasonable than would perhaps otherwise be the case ; it also means that if WMT ever do operate through services in the future, Virgin would be allowed to introduce their own dedicated fares at a lower price, if they wanted to (there is no point in them doing so at the moment, of course).

If you are interested in fares, you are more than welcome to join us at a free fares workshop

 

[Mark Enderby]

In BR days Runcorn and Warrington had were interchangeable fare wise. WMT are the faresetter for both CRE fares but the fares have diverged over the years with Runcorn being lower now presumably due to the formula applied. The only difference of course is that WMT actually run trains! Hence, Virgin have introduced Virgin-only tix to undercut them. I presume the regulated fares would be the same whoever "set" them. If Orcats doesn't give the faresetter any advantage, why have the concept of a fare setter except for TOC only fares in the first place?

Is there anyway of identifying which fares are regulated?

Cheers
Mark

 

[jamesbwxm]

Don't worry Mark - fares are so complex, it's enough to make you want to do something simple like work out the provenance of the beer you have just bought.

When you spot people from other places....