Summons for failing to submit a rail ticket??

[archwaykid]

On balance, the settlement sounds like a result for the OP.

Not if you've budgeted for a tuner for your Gibson. Have to wait another month
Seriously though, it was but it felt like paying for a parking ticket. 50% disc if you pay early and all that.

 

[EM2]

As far as I'm concerned the signs should explicitly state "YOU CANNOT USE OYSTER OR CONTACTLESS TO GET TO GATWICK OR LUTON AIRPORT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO THE AIRPORT YOU NEED TO BUY A PAPER TICKET."

And then you'll get people complaining 'But it didn't say I couldn't use it to get to St. Albans' and the whole thing starts again...

 

[talldave]

EasyJet fly from Gatwick. Surely, therefore, it's obvious it's nowhere near London ?

 

[455driver]

Hello all
Just called them and ended up paying £60.25 as an out of court settlement. In hindsight, I should've just paid the penalty and argued later.

Argued about what exactly?
You were in the wrong and when offered the penalty fare refused it (you were wrong then as well), and that was down to you and nobody else, if you felt you were badly treated by the nasty railway then you should have had your day in Court!

 

[TheEdge]

and then you'll get people complaining 'but it didn't say i couldn't use it to get to st. Albans' and the whole thing starts again...

"You cannot use contactless or oyster to get to Cromer"

 

[cjmillsnun]

TBF to the OP you were in the wrong.

That said, it is time that there was a universal smart card/contactless ticketing service available via ATOC for all TOCs

We are behind the times in this country.

 

[archwaykid]

Argued about what exactly?
You were in the wrong and when offered the penalty fare refused it (you were wrong then as well), and that was down to you and nobody else, if you felt you were badly treated by the nasty railway then you should have had your day in Court!

Argued that I was wrongly issued a penalty fare. In my opinion, the GTR weren't and aren't clear about this.
This issue is different from one where the GTR have clearly issued the customer with a warning. For e.g. - Not travelling with a photocard or perhaps your rail pass. As the customer is warned on the paper work that he/ she has received for example.

And if I am wrong, why does GTR have 3-4 ticket attendants at Gatwick airport turnstiles? Surely if they are that clear one or perhaps 2 would suffice.
This is a cash cow that the GTR are well aware of. When we were issued with a penalty, there were 3 others too with us. A cool £60 in a span of 10 minutes!! About £300 in an hour. About £3000 per day.

All that is required is a banner on all their websites (including TFL) to warn customers going to Gatwick airport (which is an international airport irrespective of Easyjet) to not use a contactless or Oyster card. Is it that difficult?
Perhaps a sign at London Bridge/ Victoria/ Charing Cross to warn customers to not use Contactless when going to Gatwick.
But if a company is making £3000 per day, why stop it right? As an accountant, it does make financial sense. Morally, I'd question it.

Moreover, a friend of mine was stung by this 'Gatwick penalty'. And so was a work colleague of mine. I commute by motorbike but they have rail passes.
One is a tech-advisor and the other a senior project manager by vocation.

There were/ are contactless tabs at the exit point (obviously decorative), along with a posse of ticket inspectors. It felt a lot like a trap, and one of them even seemed to agree that the journey being plannable on tfl was confusing.

As for a day in court - If the court date/ location was based in London, I would be happy to present my case to the clerk/ panel. The fact that they have their summons in West Sussex at an un-earthly hour of 9:30 am (in terms of commuting) is a deterrent in terms of going ahead with prosecutions.
I will not miss work days for this.

Very importantly the stress of dealing with it. The reason we went on our 'holiday' to the US was to see my ailing family member who is actually being treated for cancer. The stress of which has affected my family enough already. And the rudeness of the GTR officials at Gatwick just riled us even more. Which is why we refused to pay the penalty in the first place. As there was no discretion shown and the inspectors accused us of fare dodging/ travelling without a ticket without hearing our side of the story.
One would expect a certain level of courtesy shown irrespective of the personal stress anybody is in!!

 

[DaleCooper]

Argued that I was wrongly issued a penalty fare. In my opinion, the GTR weren't and aren't clear about this.
This issue is different from one where the GTR have clearly issued the customer with a warning. For e.g. - Not travelling with a photocard or perhaps your rail pass. As the customer is warned on the paper work that he/ she has received for example.

And if I am wrong, why does GTR have 3-4 ticket attendants at Gatwick airport turnstiles? Surely if they are that clear one or perhaps 2 would suffice.
This is a cash cow that the GTR are well aware of. When we were issued with a penalty, there were 3 others too with us. A cool £60 in a span of 10 minutes!! About £300 in an hour. About £3000 per day.

All that is required is a banner on all their websites (including TFL) to warn customers going to Gatwick airport (which is an international airport irrespective of Easyjet) to not use a contactless or Oyster card. Is it that difficult?
Perhaps a sign at London Bridge/ Victoria/ Charing Cross to warn customers to not use Contactless when going to Gatwick.
But if a company is making £3000 per day, why stop it right? As an accountant, it does make financial sense. Morally, I'd question it.

Moreover, a friend of mine was stung by this 'Gatwick penalty'. And so was a work colleague of mine. I commute by motorbike but they have rail passes.
One is a tech-advisor and the other a senior project manager by vocation.

There were/ are contactless tabs at the exit point (obviously decorative), along with a posse of ticket inspectors. It felt a lot like a trap, and one of them even seemed to agree that the journey being plannable on tfl was confusing.

As for a day in court - If the court date/ location was based in London, I would be happy to present my case to the clerk/ panel. The fact that they have their summons in West Sussex at an un-earthly hour of 9:30 am (in terms of commuting) is a deterrent in terms of going ahead with prosecutions.
I will not miss work days for this.

Very importantly the stress of dealing with it. The reason we went on our 'holiday' to the US was to see my ailing family member who is actually being treated for cancer. The stress of which has affected my family enough already. And the rudeness of the GTR officials at Gatwick just riled us even more. Which is why we refused to pay the penalty in the first place. As there was no discretion shown and the inspectors accused us of fare dodging/ travelling without a ticket without hearing our side of the story.
One would expect a certain level of courtesy shown irrespective of the personal stress anybody is in!!

Correct me if I'm wrong but I sense you are not entirely happy with the response from this forum.

Would it help if TfL made clear that the contactless card was also not valid for Birmingham International, East Midlands, Stansted and Liverpool John Lennon airports?

Regarding the ability of a tech-advisor(?), a senior project manager and a motorcyclist to understand the validity of their chosen method of payment I give myself as an example, I am just a humble pensioner who, when applying for a smartcard for bus travel, had the foresight to check the validity by the simple method of asking questions.

By the way, a tip for those wishing to defend themselves in a court case, if you have to be there by 0930 - get up early!

Finally a message to Gatwick ticket inspectors, please remember to check the stress levels of ticketless passengers before offering them a penalty fare.

 

[FOH]

Presumably the contactless tabs are for Southern Key smartcards.

 

[archwaykid]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I sense you are not entirely happy with the response from this forum.

Would it help if TfL made clear that the contactless card was also not valid for Birmingham International, East Midlands, Stansted and Liverpool John Lennon airports?

Regarding the ability of a tech-advisor(?), a senior project manager and a motorcyclist to understand the validity of their chosen method of payment I give myself as an example, I am just a humble pensioner who, when applying for a smartcard for bus travel, had the foresight to check the validity by the simple method of asking questions.

By the way, a tip for those wishing to defend themselves in a court case, if you have to be there by 0930 - get up early!

Finally a message to Gatwick ticket inspectors, please remember to check the stress levels of ticketless passengers before offering them a penalty fare.

Not at all. I am happy with most responses on the forum. Ofcourse there are some. But that's everywhere.

Glad you have all the time in the world to do your research. One would expect that when you are retired I suppose.

And no regarding Birmingham or Liverpool airports because they are just that Birmingham and Liverpool airports. If they said London, then yes TFL beats the responsibility to inform customers.

Best

 

[ian959]

I can't help but feel that you might be best served by losing the sense of indignation that seems to be consuming you.

I live the other side of the world, I don't know London that well but I do know that Gatwick Airport, like Luton and Stansted, is not in London, and that Oyster/Contactless is NOT valid on services to there - at least not yet. Why? Because I am not that familiar with the railway and so I asked. It is fairly simple. It is not difficult.

For all your arguments and indignation, at the end of the day you did not have a valid ticket and had you have done the very simple thing as an infrequent user of the railway of asking a simple question at the ticket office, then the whole issue would have been avoided.

You certainly were not wrongly issued with a penalty fare despite all the irrelevancies you keep bringing up. You did not have a valid ticket. That fact does not change at all, no matter what irrelevancies you raise.

Your stress over this matter is probably more a result of your refusal to accept that one simple statement of fact.

 

[DaleCooper]

Glad you have all the time in the world to do your research. One would expect that when you are retired I suppose.

I would think you have spent more time on this forum than would be needed to ask a simple question.

 

[Hadders]

Not at all. I am happy with most responses on the forum. Ofcourse there are some. But that's everywhere.

Glad you have all the time in the world to do your research. One would expect that when you are retired I suppose.

And no regarding Birmingham or Liverpool airports because they are just that Birmingham and Liverpool airports. If they said London, then yes TFL beats the responsibility to inform customers.

Best

Hang on a minute. So if a random organisation decides to put 'London' in their name then TfL is responsible for informing customers.

A few years ago the Corby area was being marketed by the local council as 'North Londonshire'. Are you saying that TfL should have informed potential passengers that Oyster is not valid at Corby?

I do have some sympathy for your situation but ultimately it's your responsibility to ensure you have the correct ticket. I recently made a trip to Paris and I made sure to check out what ticket I would need to get to the airport so I didn't end up in a difficult situation.

 

[island]

Glad you have all the time in the world to do your research. One would expect that when you are retired I suppose.

And no regarding Birmingham or Liverpool airports because they are just that Birmingham and Liverpool airports. If they said London, then yes TFL beats the responsibility to inform customers.

I'm working off the assumption that "beats" is a typo for "bears": and that makes the sentence completely wrong. The responsibility for holding a valid ticket falls on the passenger, and nobody else. TfL — whose services were not used at all on the sector of the journey complained of — is not responsible for telling you to have a valid ticket. Neither it nor anyone else can know where you intend to travel when you touch in a contactless card — although the ticket gates at those places such as Paddington platforms 2-5 where none of the services call at a station that accepts Oyster/contactless don't allow you to touch in either.

 

[DaleCooper]

Is contactless valid for these places?

Little London, Hampshire
London, Burgundy, France
London, Ontario, Canada
London, Arkansas, United States
London, California, United States
London, Kentucky, United States
London, Minnesota, United States
London, Ohio, United States
London, Texas, United States
London, West Virginia, United States
London, Wisconsin, United States
London Island, Tierra del Fuego
London, Kiribati

 

[Agent_c]

Is contactless valid for these places?

Little London, Hampshire
London, Burgundy, France
London, Ontario, Canada
London, Arkansas, United States
London, California, United States
London, Kentucky, United States
London, Minnesota, United States
London, Ohio, United States
London, Texas, United States
London, West Virginia, United States
London, Wisconsin, United States
London Island, Tierra del Fuego
London, Kiribati

Sweet, I can use Oyster to get to Kiribati? Thats just a hop, skip and a jump to Australia.... Wonder if I can get Boris to declare Sydney in Zone 9....

 

[jon0844]

They did have the same Cubic gatelines in Brisbane when I was there, with a reader that told me my Oyster wasn't valid! Maybe I needed zone 10.

 

[sarahj]

They did have the same Cubic gatelines in Brisbane when I was there, with a reader that told me my Oyster wasn't valid! Maybe I needed zone 10.

There is the little known Zone 989745

I just dont get this, maps at all stations showing where its valid. The zones, the zones. TFL's and other railways cannot be there to hold your hand throughout your traveling life. You sometimes have to plan. I know that can sometimes be hard on folks, but you have to remember there is a world outside the M25 and Boris is not (yet, thank gawd) in charge of it. The readers on the gates at Gatwick are not just for show, but work for a thing called the Key. This is a oyster style card for those that travel outside of Boris Empire.
You also say that two folks in your office got caught, did they not warn you:

'I'm going on holiday'
'Where ?'
'oh so and so. I'm flying from Gatwick'.
'Oh, watch out that oyster and using your contactless card does not work to there.'
'thanks'

Holiday planning, not what it was.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It doesn't help that when you:

Get in your car, you drive and the signs are the same in London as they are in Inverness

Get on a bus you tell put your card on the reader and sit down or if there is no reader you tell the driver where you want to go and pay him.

Get on a plane with the one of three tickets and off you go

Get to the train station and it seems all is not that simple

 

[sarahj]

It doesn't help that when you:

Get in your car, you drive and the signs are the same in London as they are in Inverness

Get on a bus you tell put your card on the reader and sit down or if there is no reader you tell the driver where you want to go and pay him.

Get on a plane with the one of three tickets and off you go

Get to the train station and it seems all is not that simple

You would be surprised at the amount of folks who turn up at Heathrow with tickets for a flight from Gatwick/Luton etc. 'But i said I wanted to fly from london'.


Of course with a bus. Each passenger gets in, around 60 at the most, and passes a driver who says yeh, or neh. And while you might flash your pass/oyster, you might be on the wrong bus anyway and not know it until you end up at the route end. I can also board a bus say here in Brighton with a day ticket thats valid only in Brighton but stay on until say tunbridge. 'Well they let me get on'.

On a plane, each passenger checks in and passes checks which say yeh or neh. 500 max , mainly around the 150-200 mark. Check ins up to 2-3 hours before leaving, plus extra checks and boarding that can take 30 mins. Plan mainly goes from A-B, so bloody hard to get on with the wrong, or not valid ticket.

In a car, 1-5. And folks get lost, even with, or despite sat nav.

Train. A departure every few mins, pos up to a 1000 on some trains, dwel time at many stations, 30 secs, or less. Unless we stand at each station and check personally (or sell) the ticket of each person boarding, asking them also where they are going, while the other 999 wait behind in a nice queue. Well.

Yes, i can see how we make it so complex.

 

[VauxhallandI]

But as has been mentioned many times before it is only on the railways you end up being surprise by a patronising person with the power to make you want to put your face in a blender.

 

[EM2]

.
All that is required is a banner on all their websites (including TFL) to warn customers going to Gatwick airport (which is an international airport irrespective of Easyjet) to not use a contactless or Oyster card. Is it that difficult?
Perhaps a sign at London Bridge/ Victoria/ Charing Cross to warn customers to not use Contactless when going to Gatwick.

But where do you stop? As soon as you put up a notice like that, someone will complain that it didn't say that they couldn't use it to go somewhere else, like Luton, or Stansted, or Southend, or Maidstone, or Weymouth.

Why are the operators responsible? If I go anywhere that offers goods or services, I check to see if I can use a particular payment method.
As an example, I dropped my car off at one of those shopping centre valeting bays.
'Can I pay by card, mate?'.
'No, sorry, it's cash only'.
See? It's easy.

 

[Flamingo]

But as has been mentioned many times before it is only on the railways you end up being surprise by a patronising person with the power to make you want to put your face in a blender.

You need to get out a bit more

 

[VauxhallandI]

You need to get out a bit more

I'm not sure I understand what that actually means.

 

[DaleCooper]

I'm not sure I understand what that actually means.

Then you definitely need to get out more.

 

[185]

The difficulty comes with a ticket opening the gates at one end of a line but not working at the other. To a tourist or irregular traveller you could assume if it works at one end....

Contactless cards for the UK will be the standard for all buses & rail within a few years, so these issues will hopefully go. From that point, the next step would be to reduce it to one ticket for the entire nation.

The implementation in the regions and the stix seems to be the sticking point at the mo.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Then you definitely need to get out more.

You should be on the stage.

I don't think it added much, should probably be deleted.

 

[455driver]

The difficulty comes with a ticket opening the gates at one end of a line but not working at the other.

So using your (il)logic, if I buy a travelcard which will work the gates at Paddington I can use it to go to Penzance!

 

[185]

So using your (il)logic, if I buy a travelcard which will work the gates at Paddington I can use it to go to Penzance!

Well, you'd hate Hong Kong.

I paid for a Big Mac, used a Coca-Cola vending machine, made a phone call to the UK, then travelled on a ship to a foreign country using my MTR Octopus Card.

Proves the uses for them are potentially limitless.

 

[Via Bank]

So using your (il)logic, if I buy a travelcard which will work the gates at Paddington I can use it to go to Penzance!

There is a problem here: if the gates accept a ticket, that creates the impression to the passenger that their ticket is valid (see also: people caught on out-of-time Advance tickets, who then complain "but it worked the gates!")

Imagine you're a foreign visitor who knows nothing about public transport. You want to go to Penzance. You're not sure which zone Penzance is in, but you give it a go—surely the barrier will reject your Zone 1-6 Travelcard if it isn't valid? Of course, you put your ticket in, and the gates swing open, welcomingly, with the word "ENTER" displayed in bold, inviting text.

I have seen people trying to use Travelcards to get on buses and trains outside London before, and being shocked when they are told they need to buy another ticket.

There is nothing whatsoever to indicate to a tourist or someone unfamiliar with public transport that a Travelcard is only valid in London (and even then not valid on certain trains to 'London' Heathrow, or to 'London' Gatwick, Luton etc.) 'Zones 1-6' might mean anything. As for the roundel—to someone who doesn't take public transport, that might as well be the Egyptian hieroglyph for the sun god Ra.

What is needed is for Travelcards to be printed with the words LONDON TRAVELCARD, and for big signs to be hung at the termini: "TRAVELCARDS, OYSTER AND CONTACTLESS CARDS NOT VALID FURTHER THAN [boundary station]."

(Or, of course, a properly integrated, simple pay-as-you-go bus and rail fares system for the whole country, but that's never going to happen, is it?)