sussexspotter's opinions on XC service to Bath, and freight loco liveries

[Mr Spock]

Come on folks this guy is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Still at least he does not want to run DBS trains to Brighton yet.

 

[SussexSpotter]

No it doesn't. This is commonplace.

Maybe not straight away but over time it does.

Companies merge, or change their name, all the time. What do you expect, a big sign on their homepage saying "oh yeah we used to be called EWS, sorry for any confusion?" That would look unprofessional.

Indeed it would which is why you you'd want to create as much awareness of your new identity as possible, which is path that all the other rail freight companys except DB Schenker seem to done.

And as Matt said, you'd probably do a lot more research than that before deciding who to give a contract to. Finding out that DBS bought EWS would take all of ten seconds' research; if I was this steelworking company I'd want to see pages and pages of research reports, with stuff like prices, timings, rolling stock capabilities, reliability stats, and so on.

Of course you would, every business would, if I owned this steelworking business i'd do that after i'd researched the names of these rail freight companies that I see passing my workplace. But i'm pretty sure the EWS brand still existing has and will continue to cause confusion as time goes on.

You've clearly demonstrated that you know nothing about how the freight market works. Can you please, for the sake of my sanity, move on?

I wouldn't say that, maybe this discussion has gone on a bit long, I have to admit but all i'm trying to do is make people see some sense. I still don't get why from a business point of view you think it's a good thing that a large company carries around an old companies logo after such a long time.

 

[455driver]

And we dont get why you think its such a problem!

 

[Eagle]

But i'm pretty sure the EWS brand still existing has and will continue to cause confusion as time goes on.

No it won't. The confusion will be cleared up in the first ten seconds after a Google search. Ten seconds out of the (probably) weeks of researching.

...all i'm trying to do is make people see some sense...

Aren't we all...

Protip: when there are several people arguing against you and you're on your own, there's a good chance you're in the wrong. Drop it.

 

[KA4C]

I wouldn't say that,

I would

all i'm trying to do is make people see some sense.

PMSL let us know when you get it, will you

I still don't get why from a business point of view you think it's a good thing that a large company carries around an old companies logo after such a long time.

No, you don't, do you

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I wouldn't say that, maybe this discussion has gone on a bit long, I have to admit but all i'm trying to do is make people see some sense. I still don't get why from a business point of view you think it's a good thing that a large company carries around an old companies logo after such a long time.

However, freight is a very industrial, business based market with little public input. In the public eye, image is important, but in things like logistics, haulage and private transport it matters a lot less. As I have said, if it was giving DBS issues I'm sure they would change it. Obviously, it is going fine for them, so there is no urgency to do so.

 

[KA4C]

Protip: when there are several people arguing against you and you're on your own, there's a good chance you're in the wrong. Drop it.

Especially when some work in the industry and some of those work in the railfreight industry

 

[Eagle]

As I have said, if it was giving DBS issues I'm sure they would change it. Obviously, it is going fine for them, so there is no urgency to do so.

That, basically. :P

DBS clearly aren't losing business because of this.

 

[KA4C]

As I have said, if it was giving DBS issues I'm sure they would change it.

They would and it isn't

 

[Nym]

they could paint their locos in lime green with pink spots and replace all the logos with pictures of dancing cats and the clients wouldn't give a damn.

Unless it was a Tesco contract

But really, who cares what they look like, I think there's still some in the DBS fleet that are at least two liveries out of date...

 

[Eagle]

Back on topic...

Yet he somehow needs a daily service without actually going home, it would seem

I think it's more a case of she needed a service that got her from Bath to Birmingham for 8am, which didn't exist previously (if you take the first FGW service to Bristol and then change to XC the earliest you can get there is 08.26).

 

[SussexSpotter]

If I just agree with you all I think it's a lot easier. So if I come back on this forum in say 20 years time and DB Schenker are only about 3 quarters of the way through rebranding their fleet you'll all still think that its professional of a business to carry around the old logo of the company it took over 2 decades ago? Actually by then the logo might have faded which is what DBS are waiting for to save money.

Also if you ever become successful entrepreneurs or rail tycoons, if you decide to takeover another rail company make sure you keep the old companies name on the fleet won't you, might save you a few bob in the competative rail market, it's not exactly common sense after all to remove it, assuming your customers will know who you are anyway

 

[Muzer]

They're freight companies, not high street stores!

...speaking of which, I can name many high-street stores that weren't rebranded until months or years after their being bought out, if ever! Gamestation being the main example I can think of at the moment, there are still some of those around; my local cinema took a while to rebrand after it was bought out by Odeon; it took Waterstones some time (up to 7 months according to Wikipedia) to rebrand all the Ottakar's... My point is, if a high-street store can go on without rebranding for months or years at a time, I'm sure DB can...

 

[SussexSpotter]

...speaking of which, I can name many high-street stores that weren't rebranded until months or years after their being bought out, if ever! Gamestation being the main example I can think of at the moment, there are still some of those around; my local cinema took a while to rebrand after it was bought out by Odeon; it took Waterstones some time (up to 7 months according to Wikipedia) to rebrand all the Ottakar's... My point is, if a high-street store can go on without rebranding for months or years at a time, I'm sure DB can...

Ok does a professional business?:

A. Rebrand quickly (e.g. Europorte GBRf)
B. Rebrand slowly (e.g. Waterstones)
C. Rebrand at the slowest possible pace (e.g. DB Schenker)

Your honest opinion please?

 

[Eagle]

Your honest opinion please?

It makes no difference at all in this industry. Empirically.

 

[221129]

It Doesn't matter.

 

[DownSouth]

Experience with freight operators on road and rail in Australia has shown that retaining elements of old branding is actually a good thing, even before you get to the issue of the paint job and whether it's worth taking vehicles out of service for non-essential maintenance. If the long-term big-ticket customers are satisfied with a freight company, then any other changes (including branding) in the wake of an acquisition should go as slowly as possible to try and convince them all that's changed is the ownership.

If the old outfit was a disaster that was purchased just to inherit assets and perhaps a few long-term contracts, then just about everything has to change all at once in an effort to convince customers the new company was not linked to the old. This might even need to go as far as shuffling around staff in a major restructure just to make sure that even the people the customer comes in contact with are all different.

As far as I'm aware, EWS had a pretty good reputation so DBS have a lot to gain by trading on that EWS name. That's even before you consider the operational implications of taking vehicles out of service.


It's different for a new company trying to win new business. For an example, Freightliner Australia has two contracts currently, operating coal trains for Xstrata using new-build wagons and XRN Class* locomotives that are owned and liveried by Xstrata, and also hauling daily trains of containerised cotton. The cotton trains use four leased locos currently, two of which have received PowerHaul-style livery (they operate in pairs, one in Freightliner Australia livery and one in standard CFCLA) to try and get a bit of visibility for the company, while that's not an issue for the coal side of things where it's a pretty closed system.

* New-build and rebuilt locomotives are classified by both type and owner in one code in Australia, even if they are the same model as those used by other owners. This can lead to nearly identical locomotives being known as many different classes, like the current C44aci built by UGL Rail which is known as the 92 class, AC class, 6000 class, XRN class, ACB class, CEY class, CF class and GWU class! It's really helpful because it can help you pick out odd workings without having to look up numbers.

Yes because the 37's were some of the first loco's they repainted, hardly saw much mainline use in their new livery before they were eventually put into storage in March 2010, as DB Schenker don't want to use them anymore. Meanwhile their main fleet of 66's and 67's, as well as the 60's are still in the slow process of being repainted/rebranded years later. Any logic there????

I can see two perfectly logical reasons.

1. The 37's repainted first could have been done as part of trialling the new branding, the idea being to use locos already used less intensively just in case the new branding was a failure. Backing up this theory, if the new branding was a rampant success then those Class 37's wouldn't be stored (because business would be increasing) and the rebranding would have been hurried up.

2. It could also have been an accidental move, painting the locos as they come in for heavy maintenance. Obviously the worst clapped-out relics would be the ones most likely to see some unscheduled heavy maintenance (and hence the paintbrush) the soonest.

 

[junglejames]

I know their freight companies and not High Street stores, I just used it as an example, it's still a business at the end of the day. You seem to be missing the point about how other rail freight companies manage execpt DB Schenker, and they are an even bigger company than all the others with a greater turnover each year. I mean GBRf Europorte could say ''nah we'll just leave the First Group logo on all our fleet, nobody will care.'' But they don't, they quickly removed it with minimum effort and fuss and are now in the process of properly rebranding and repainting their fleet.

FirstGroup are still in existence, so it makes sense for GBRF to get rid of all First logos. However, EWS as a brand/ company was taken over by DB. So not as much need to get rid of the brand. Its not as if you are advertising a competitor. Also, it may have been a condition of sale that Europorte got rid of the First logo ASAP.

As mentioned before, with freight locos, the livery makes very little difference, so why spend unnecessary money painting out a brand which you actually own? Supermarkets are very different to freight locos. More of a need to rebrand. Usually because the old owner still exists somewhere.
Freight locos dont matter, so not as much need.
Business sense suggests that you dont spend money unnecessarily.

 

[sprinterguy]

As mentioned before, with freight locos, the livery makes very little difference, so why spend unnecessary money painting out a brand which you actually own? Supermarkets are very different to freight locos. More of a need to rebrand. Usually because the old owner still exists somewhere.
Freight locos dont matter, so not as much need.
Business sense suggests that you dont spend money unnecessarily.

British Rail's Railfreight sector attached a lot of importance to the image that its' locomotives, and the sector in general, presented to its' customers and the public. Although on the other hand it is unlikely that any of Railfreights' customers were unduly concerned, or even noticed, when a locomotive bearing the incorrect sub-sector symbol rolled into their facility.

 

[6Gman]

They've had 3 Christmas period's in which to do it when rail freight demand is low and by now the whole fleet could have been done as the simple task of applying a sticker over the top of another logo is both quick and cheap, and takes minutes. It could be done overnight in a TMD for instance. They could then carry out the slow process of proper repaints over time.

Oh God! Now we're bringing staff in on Christmas Day (triple time!) to put the right stickers on

Seriously, this really isn't an issue for most of DBS/EWS's custiomers ... or most of us on here!

 

[All Line Rover]

I'm lost. What does this all have to do with the XC Bath Spa service?

 

[starrymarkb]

Which is the reason it was put in apparently....I wondered when it would get mentioned !

Wasn't the FGW fast Frome to London down to an influentual MP/Civil Servant?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also I believe this XC service runs Bristol to Bath via Taunton and Westbury for route knowledge so XC can go that way if the direct Bristol to Taunton line is shut for any reason

 

[SussexSpotter]

Oh God! Now we're bringing staff in on Christmas Day (triple time!) to put the right stickers on

Seriously, this really isn't an issue for most of DBS/EWS's custiomers ... or most of us on here!

The Christmas period is spread over a short period of time, and the rail freight market demand is less as everything shuts down into the new year, then from new year onwards it picks up again, I wouldn't exactly expect people to work on Christmas Day to put DB stickers on loco's but certaintly the days leading up to and after Christmas wouldn't exactly be difficult if they were that commited, but i'm not leading into another debate on this!

I managed to find another forum post about this DB Schenker re-branding issue from about a year ago, so therefore i'm not the only one who expressed similar views as me about this DB Schenker rebranding issue......(see link).......so anyone being rude and accusing me of trolling, please jog on thanks very much!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=640944

_______________________________________

Does anyone have any theories or actual knowledge as to why three years after the takeover DB Schenker locos are all (apart from 2 or 3) still kicking about in EWS livery. I would have thought corporate identity was quite important in today's marketplace. The three other major freight players aren't going about in previous owner livery!

_______________________________________
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm lost. What does this all have to do with the XC Bath Spa service?

Because DB own Arriva Cross Country and the poor XC Network map which misses out stations sort of led to the idea of poor management within the company, as other TOC's have included all the stations they serve, this then lead to the issue of DB Schenker being slow at re-branding and establishing their new identity from the old EWS livery years later, and whether poor management is indeed the issue within the DB company.

 

[221129]

No They Dont Have Poor Management

 

[TEW]

Also I believe this XC service runs Bristol to Bath via Taunton and Westbury for route knowledge so XC can go that way if the direct Bristol to Taunton line is shut for any reason

It exits the east end of Barton Hill, up to Bristol Parkway then runs via the Rhubard Curve avoiding Bristol Temple Meads down to Bath Spa. XC don't have any booked services via Westbury but crew do keep up knowledge that way.

 

[SussexSpotter]

No They Dont Have Poor Management

Ok so forgetting the DB Schenker rebranding thing, as that's getting well off topic now anyway. Why can't they put a decent map together for their customers/passengers to include places like Bath and Eastleigh on the Map (which they serve) as well as those that Eagle pointed out between Derby and Nottingham, when other TOC's can do it. I understand XC's reputation isn't exactly that good anyway so surely they'd want to improve their image by putting together a quality Network Map? Now that would hardly cost any money at all (if any), so there really is no excuse for it, apart from ''Can't be bothered will do it later'' attitude.

All it takes is for someone at XC management to say to it's staff ''right guys and gals, this map isn't very good and is outdated, lets put a better one together for our passengers''. To just sit down on the computer and edit the current network map or put together a new and improved one to include the new stations it serves is not difficult. Eagle made his own one when he was bored (see the earlier posts).

 

[221129]

They Cover one of if not the Largest Area in the UK so I Feel they can be forgiven for missing a few stations that get served once per day or smaller stations in quick Succession. In their defence there is a Disclaimer which i mentioned earlier saying: Please note: Not All Stations Are Shown on this Map

 

[tbtc]

Does anyone have any theories or actual knowledge as to why three years after the takeover DB Schenker locos are all (apart from 2 or 3) still kicking about in EWS livery. I would have thought corporate identity was quite important in today's marketplace. The three other major freight players aren't going about in previous owner livery!

There's a difference between buying a book in Waterstones and agreeing a contract for shifting heavy freight hundreds of miles.

Trust me, if you need to get your wagons hauled around the country (which only a handful of people do) you'll not just pick a name you saw recently on the side of a train.

Why can't they put a decent map together for their customers/passengers to include places like Bath and Eastleigh on the Map

If they did update the map to show a route with one service a day (at 06:00) would they get any more passengers? It may even confuse people (since FGW operate considerably more services to/from Bath).

Same with Eastleigh - is it really stopping people from travelling there? Methinks you are splitting hairs to try to make a point. Its not worth it.

 

[SussexSpotter]

They Cover one of if not the Largest Area in the UK so I Feel they can be forgiven for missing a few stations that get served once per day or smaller stations in quick Succession. In their defence there is a Disclaimer which i mentioned earlier saying: Please note: Not All Stations Are Shown on this Map

But they havn't even hightlighted Bath Spa on the map, they've shown it but not hightlighted it?????? There's no message saying 'Please note: some stations are shown but not highlighted.'

Again this is another trivial thing but knowing what passengers are like people looking at that map will be a bit confused when a Cross Country train turns up the station it says they don't serve, even if tbtc doesn't think so. Look at it this way, booking a train from Bath Spa to Glasgow that shows a direct morning Cross Country service on National Rail Enquiries when the XC map doesn't show any service is a bit confusing don't you think?

 

[Eagle]

Same with Eastleigh - is it really stopping people from travelling there? Methinks you are splitting hairs to try to make a point. Its not worth it.

My map has Eastleigh and Bath on it :P

To be fair, I was going for the Northern-style level of detail.