Texas church shooting leaves many dead

[Up_Tilt_390]

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In fairness to Up_Tilt, his original statement “Islamic inspired terrorists acts” isn’t incorrect. Of course not all Muslims are islamists, but all islamists are most certainly Muslims, and their attacks are most certainly “inspired by Islam”.

As for the statement that Islam the religion is comparable with modern western civilisation, that’s a little too general to be accurate in my view.

Moderate Islam is, but if you value equality for women, gay rights, freedom of religion etc. then you’ll find the religion’s tenets are wholly incompatible with your world view.

A total like from me!

 

[fowler9]

Here is the problem, we are all sat here talking about Islam which actually had nothing at all to do with some yank with a gun shooting up a Baptist church. Donald Trump would be proud of us and is probably as we speak thinking up new sanctions against Muslims.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Here is the problem, we are all sat here talking about Islam which actually had nothing at all to do with some yank with a gun shooting up a Baptist church. Donald Trump would be proud of us and is probably as we speak thinking up new sanctions against Muslims.

All that's wrong about that statement is the idea he'd be doing his job as President rather than just playing Golf. Despite somewhat helping to continue on the discussion, at least I can say I initially tried to avoid it in my quote below.

Well it's quite a fierce debate in today's world, but I think I've already said enough about it on this particular thread. Perhaps the subject ought to come back next time there's an Islamist-inspired attack in a different thread to be discussed separately lest we go off topic from the Texas Church Shooting which ultimately is what this thread is about.

I take no pride nor pleasure at the very concept of pleasing Donald Trump.

 

[Cowley]

Here is the problem, we are all sat here talking about Islam which actually had nothing at all to do with some yank with a gun shooting up a Baptist church. Donald Trump would be proud of us and is probably as we speak thinking up new sanctions against Muslims.

Well said.

Going back to the subject, the ‘cowboy’ guy that shot him and gave chase with the other guy was quite interesting (not least just to look at).
There’s a part of me that wondered if they actually did shoot him causing him to crash his car or maybe after he’d crashed. The news reports say that the gunman shot himself but where would they stand in the eyes of the law if they caused his death in a different way than actually just defending themselves ?
I’ve no idea myself, I’m just wondering if there was a bit more to what meets the eye with the way it all ended?

 

[najaB]

Moderate Islam is, but if you value equality for women, gay rights, freedom of religion etc. then you’ll find the religion’s tenets are wholly incompatible with your world view.

I think you'll find that there are no degrees of religion, only in how the principles are interpreted and applied. 'Moderate Islam' is no more a thing than 'moderate Christianity'. There are nut-jobs who profess to be from both religions and there's not really much difference between them.

 

[najaB]

The news reports say that the gunman shot himself but where would they stand in the eyes of the law if they caused his death in a different way than actually just defending themselves ?
I’ve no idea myself, I’m just wondering if there was a bit more to what meets the eye with the way it all ended?

I *believe* that in Texas law you can't be charged with homicide if you were stopping someone from being harmed/killed. Certainly you would be immune from a civil suit.

 

[Cowley]

I *believe* that in Texas law you can't be charged with homicide if you were stopping someone from being harmed/killed. Certainly you would be immune from a civil suit.

Ah ok. Thanks for that.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think you'll find that there are no degrees of religion, only in how the principles are interpreted and applied. 'Moderate Islam' is no more a thing than 'moderate Christianity'. There are nut-jobs who profess to be from both religions and there's not really much difference between them.

Moderate practice of any religion tends to mean the adherent ignores the bits they don't like.

There's rather less room for interpretation of Islam than there is with Christianity. It has no equivalent of the New Testament and the Quran is believed to be the direct word of God, rather than messages from prophets.

Both Islam and Christianity have principles that would not be considered compatible with many of our views today. Although I would argue what we know as modern western democracy has many values based on moderate Christianity "love thy neighbour". etc. And the general western world view is far less compatible with Islam than with Christianity, although I'm not a big fan of either religion.

I would argue this is a self evident truth from a review of the current human rights records of countries where Islam is the majority religion versus secular, post-Christian, western democracies.

 

[Howardh]

How many "civilised" developed countries have laws where ordinary citizens can carry weapons? Any in Europe - although there may be left-over stuff from the Slavic wars. Russia??

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

How many "civilised" developed countries have laws where ordinary citizens can carry weapons? Any in Europe - although there may be left-over stuff from the Slavic wars. Russia??

Switzerland has the fourth highest gun ownership rate in the world, and in fact every male between 18 and 34 is required to undergo military conscription. The Swiss have some of the lowest gun crime in the world. This is often the country the NRA cites for the US, but they don't know that Swiss regulations mean that ammo cannot be kept at home and that the rifles undergo yearly inspections to ensure it hasn't been used improperly. It's what one might call a well regulated militia. This is what the founding fathers in mind, but the Americans strayed off course.

 

[Bromley boy]

How many "civilised" developed countries have laws where ordinary citizens can carry weapons? Any in Europe - although there may be left-over stuff from the Slavic wars. Russia??

Canada, Finland and Switzerland all spring to mind as “civilised” countries with high gun ownership rates and low murder rates.

I’m not sure whether open carry is allowed in these countries, in the way it is in some parts of the USA.

 

[birchesgreen]

There's rather less room for interpretation of Islam than there is with Christianity. It has no equivalent of the New Testament and the Quran is believed to be the direct word of God, rather than messages from prophets.

With the kind of christianity most common over here (CofE for example) perhaps though in America evangelicals are in the ascendency. They believe in the primacy of scripture (hence why they tend to be more homophobic due to their reading of Levitus). They also have a much more black & white way of thinking (disclaimer, i was married to an evangelical christian for a number of years) thats quite different from "mainstream" thinking in many subtle ways.

 

[Bromley boy]

With the kind of christianity most common over here (CofE for example) perhaps though in America evangelicals are in the ascendency. They believe in the primacy of scripture (hence why they tend to be more homophobic due to their reading of Levitus). They also have a much more black & white way of thinking (disclaimer, i was married to an evangelical christian for a number of years) thats quite different from "mainstream" thinking in many subtle ways.

You make a good point.

My experience of Christianity growing up was united reformed church - very much “low church” comprised of kindly, well meaning, middle class people who get together over coffee mornings, turn the other cheek and try not to judge each other.

The more evangelical Christians are a different kettle of fish entirely. Interestingly a long term ex girlfriend of mine was from this background (thankfully we stopped short of marriage). We simply weren’t compatible in the end and sadly her religious beliefs played a big part of that, as I’m an agnostic.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Time to talk about gun control yet........................................................

I saw a nice tweet saying that it was too soon to talk about gun control relating to Texas, so they were going to talk gun control relating to the Las Vegas shooting.



But yeah, not to at shocked by this. Saddened yes, but frankly I've just given up on America as a concept.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

So it is emerging that the shooter, being dishonourably discharged, was not actually able to legally own firearms.

So of course the gun lobby is all over this, pointing out that "gun control would not have helped" since he had the gun illegally anyway.

Ignoring the fact that he managed to get a semi-automatic rifle, which someone either brought for him, or that he stole. Either way, the fact a gun like an AR15 was accessible to this man, was because gun control laws allowed people around him to have them.

 

[Busaholic]

In the USA the definition of mass killing is, apparently, one where at least four people have been killed. The BBC reporter from the States said that there had been 4 mass killings on Friday and 3 on Saturday (it might have been the other way round) before this one yesterday. He said it all with the resigned, exasperated air of someone who'd reported it all before, would no doubt do so countless times in future and he re-iterated that it would not make the slightest difference to the prevailing view that every American (or, at least, the white ones) had a birthright to carry arms. He didn't say the bit I've put in brackets, by the way, but he didn't need to.

 

[najaB]

He didn't say the bit I've put in brackets, by the way, but he didn't need to.

Oh, there's no doubt, he didn't speak an unspoken truth - in many minds, the Second Amendment exists so that White folk can protect themselves from Brown folk.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am reminded by some of the "Britain knows best" comments made on this thread so far of the 1959 satirical film, starring Peter Sellers, "The Mouse That Roared".

 

[Bromley boy]

Oh, there's no doubt, he didn't speak an unspoken truth - in many minds, the Second Amendment exists so that White folk can protect themselves from Brown folk*.

In your mind, perhaps.

But doesn't that statement ignore the inconvenient truth that the majority of gun murders annually in the states are committed by black/Hispanic men* upon other blacks/Hispanics?

*i assume they're what you mean by "brown folk".

 

[Howardh]

Re Canada and Finland, in certain areas tourists are almost forcibly given guns, to prevent them being dinner! Probably in the most uninhabited regions but I'll admit it's a sound reason! But wonder how common weapons are in the major cities. I'd be scared to visit Texas but not Toronto.

 

[Bromley boy]

In the USA the definition of mass killing is, apparently, one where at least four people have been killed. The BBC reporter from the States said that there had been 4 mass killings on Friday and 3 on Saturday (it might have been the other way round) before this one yesterday. He said it all with the resigned, exasperated air of someone who'd reported it all before, would no doubt do so countless times in future and he re-iterated that it would not make the slightest difference to the prevailing view that every American (or, at least, the white ones) had a birthright to carry arms. He didn't say the bit I've put in brackets, by the way, but he didn't need to.

He didn't need to! Evidently you added the (inaccurate) virtue signalling nonsense, all by yourself!

It might be my mistake, but doesn't the US constitution, and amendments to it, govern black US citizens as much as white ones?

If I'm wrong, please feel free to cite your source...

 

[GB]

. I'd be scared to visit Texas but not Toronto.

The chance of being involved in such incidents is so slim there is no point in being scared...and I say that as someone who was in San Antonio just over a week ago (Its a very nice place).

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I travelled through Texas, Georgia and Alabama and never actually saw anyone carrying a gun. "Fortunately" (in a very restricted sense of the word) most of the mass shootings are targetted against family or work and there are "relatively" few random spree killings.

 

[najaB]

But doesn't that statement ignore the inconvenient truth that the majority of gun murders annually in the states are committed by black/Hispanic men* upon other blacks/Hispanics?

It's not an inconvenient truth, it's a fact. However, if you look at the history of the NRA you'll see that up until the 1950s they were largely concerned with hunting and were strongly in favor of gun control, it's only since the Civil rights movement that they have (a) become a 'Red State' organisation and (b) shifted the focus of their rhetoric to the importance of guns for 'protection'. Coincidence?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

So it looks like the gunman should have been barred from buying a gun, but the database was not properly updated - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41895695

So this incident is 100% about gun control laws. If they had been properly enforced, he would simply not have been able to buy a gun.

It is insane how many politicians are coming out in the US and saying that people should not "politicise" the issue. Trump is by far the most sanctimonious, using the terror attack in New York to instantly call for "extreme vetting" and travel bans, but saying that this is obviously a mental health issue, but others are saying the same things too.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Oh, there's no doubt, he didn't speak an unspoken truth - in many minds, the Second Amendment exists so that White folk can protect themselves from Brown folk.

In your mind, perhaps.

But doesn't that statement ignore the inconvenient truth that the majority of gun murders annually in the states are committed by black/Hispanic men* upon other blacks/Hispanics?

*i assume they're what you mean by "brown folk".

He's not far off. The NRA is not interested in gun rights of non-whites except in an abstract sense. We saw that with the police shooting of Philando Castille. He's the perfect poster child for the NRA - a licensed gun owner who responsibly informed the police when stopped that he had a weapon. And was then killed by the police when told to give them his driving licence. He's a guy who did everything right, except he was black, and so the NRA said nary a word about his killing.

As for the majority of gun murders being minority on minority, I do not have the statistics to either confirm or refute that; but if true frankly it's not too surprising as you're more likely to be killed if in a "bad" neighbourhood, and due to systemic housing discrimination over decades, minorities are more likely to live in "bad" neighbourhoods.

It is insane how many politicians are coming out in the US and saying that people should not "politicise" the issue. Trump is by far the most sanctimonious, using the terror attack in New York to instantly call for "extreme vetting" and travel bans, but saying that this is obviously a mental health issue, but others are saying the same things too.

Pretty simple: if the attacker was white, they're a loner with mental issues, a freak occurrence. If the attacker was not white, they're a terrorist.

 

[najaB]

Pretty simple: if the attacker was white, they're a loner with mental issues, a freak occurrence. If the attacker was not white, they're a terrorist.

Yup, sounds about right.

 

[Busaholic]

I am reminded by some of the "Britain knows best" comments made on this thread so far of the 1959 satirical film, starring Peter Sellers, "The Mouse That Roared".

I don't remember that film. I do, however, remember 'Being There' with Sellers as a simple-minded gardener who is elevated to very high levels in U.S. political circles when people who should know better choose to interpret his simplistic answers to everything as evidence of great wisdom! On the way he gets close to the Russian ambassador and becomes close to running for President. One year tonight since the nightmare began, by the way, and satire can't deal with that.

As for gun law, I think you could name any other country in the world that actually does know better than the US on that matter.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It is amazing that so many in the US still seem to believe that the world looks up to their country.

Instead we look at them with baffled, unconcealed amusement as they seem completely incapable of understanding the principles of gun control (don't sell military grade armaments in supermarkets and people won't be able to carry out massacres), climate/environmental protection and what a President should be like.

They are very much a laughing stock.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Pretty simple: if the attacker was white, they're a loner with mental issues, a freak occurrence. If the attacker was not white, they're a terrorist.

Strictly speaking a terrorist usually uses violence or intimidation to achieve a political goal, and quite often these white attackers aren't found to have a political motive. How a motive can be established is another question, and how they'd expect to get the Las Vegas shooter's motive is kind of... hopeless?