Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Skimble19]

Cambridge cruiser services will be 387s. The remaining Cambridge services will be 8-car. These aren’t all stoppers as many are fast from Stevenage.

There is a large increase in the number of trains running off Peak but no more can be run in the peaks as the line is at capacity.

There is no increase in off peak services on the Peterborough route though and not really many additional services during the peaks either. Passengers are pretty angry that they are getting basically the same service as now but to Horsham instead of Kings Cross and with 700s that are really not great for the route either.. Even Sunday remains an hourly service, Saturday’s remain 2tph and so does weekday off peak.

Any passengers heading to stations currently served by the stoppers from Peterborough (Welwyn, Hatfield etc.) also now get to enjoy a 23 minute wait when going south or a 7-9 minute wait going north at Stevenage.

One positive about them that I have to admit is it is noticeably a lot quicker getting everyone on and off of them than with any of the existing stock.

 

[jon0844]

It is very disappointing that there is no service increase on Sunday. 2tph would make a world of difference (as much so as 4 to 8 car) simply because it stops you having to plan whatever you're doing in London to coincide with getting the train. Doubling the frequency allows you to just go at your own pace and not have to wait too long.

The capacity increase is also an obvious benefit too, but I think that leisure travellers who do some planning on the Network Rail app before going out will potentially be put off when they realise they can't get a train at nn:nn because the theatre/cinema/shops close/finish at nn:nn and they'll just miss the train. It adds a further hour to their trip home and so on.

I know there are some times of the day where there are extra trains, but they could do more. Perhaps it's just because of the driver issues, and as more drivers enter who have to do at least one Sunday a month, they will feel able to increase the frequency?

 

[Minstral25]

That’s about right. Thing is everyone thinks all the class 700 long distance services are going to be 12-car but how can they be when most of them are only 8-car. GTR/DfT don’t want us to know this!

I’ve been asking this question for years but no-one’s managed to come with an answer yet.

How much extra capacity is there going to be in the peaks? .

Just doing a bit of tracing the timetables from the consultation.

TL1 - BED to BTN needs 11 units
TL2 - BED to GTW needs 10
TL5 - PBO to HOR needs 12
TL6 - CAM to BTN needs 11

That's 44 of the 55 12 car units accounted for.

Add TL3 East Grinstead 6 units in peak, TL4 Littlehampton 3 units - now we have accounted for 53 units leaving 2 in maintenance.

The other Main line set of trains is TL7 Cambridge to Maidstone so these would need to be 8 car units but I think it has been mentioned before that station lengths require this anyway.

I recall mention that some Luton to Rainham services may get some 12 coach trains but I can't see this happening unless the peak only trains take a wander between the peaks.

 

[absolutelymilk]

It is very disappointing that there is no service increase on Sunday. 2tph would make a world of difference

Which route are you talking about here?

 

[bramling]

If passenger numbers do fall, more people will get a seat so it's not all bad news.

365s also nicely roast your leg in a window seat by the way. They're pretty close to the wall, just not as much as a 700.

The 365 seats are just that little bit extra out from the side, and plus most seats have an inch or so of space between the seats. This makes all the difference.

Interestingly, the 365s have a sort of compromise in that the seats nearest the doors lack the spacing between the seats. They're noticeably more cramped, although still quite satisfactory. Perhaps this compromise might have made the 700s more acceptable.

All we end up with on the Undesiros is legs overhanging into the aisle and people selecting the aisle seats in preference to window seats. Both these things are bad for dwell times, capacity and passenger convenience.

 

[class387]

Interestingly, the 365s have a sort of compromise in that the seats nearest the doors lack the spacing between the seats. They're noticeably more cramped, although still quite satisfactory. Perhaps this compromise might have made the 700s more acceptable.

I think the lack of spacing on the seats closest to the door is due to having to accommodate the door mechanism.

 

[otomous]

Exactly.

I don't expect anyone to say 'oh great' to that obviously, but more capacity comes at the expense of seated passengers. The same happened on London Overground services when the 313s became 378s, and will happen when the 313s become 717s.

Of course, if the country implodes after Brexit and rail travel drops and loads of people leave the country, maybe we can modify the interiors as appropriate.

If rail travel drops there will be even less money to pay for train modification.

 

[otomous]

It is very disappointing that there is no service increase on Sunday. 2tph would make a world of difference (as much so as 4 to 8 car) simply because it stops you having to plan whatever you're doing in London to coincide with getting the train. Doubling the frequency allows you to just go at your own pace and not have to wait too long.

The capacity increase is also an obvious benefit too, but I think that leisure travellers who do some planning on the Network Rail app before going out will potentially be put off when they realise they can't get a train at nn:nn because the theatre/cinema/shops close/finish at nn:nn and they'll just miss the train. It adds a further hour to their trip home and so on.

I know there are some times of the day where there are extra trains, but they could do more. Perhaps it's just because of the driver issues, and as more drivers enter who have to do at least one Sunday a month, they will feel able to increase the frequency?

No TOC will be seeking better Sunday services as it will cost them more to staff them and the DFT knows it. Even if Sundays are part of the driver’s working week an increased Sunday service needs more drivers which costs.

 

[Hadders]

No TOC will be seeking better Sunday services as it will cost them more to staff them and the DFT knows it. Even if Sundays are part of the driver’s working week an increased Sunday service needs more drivers which costs.

But GTR have been operating the largest driver recruitment programme ever for the last 3 years - what are these drivers going to be doing?

Seriously, the Sunday service at stations like Knebworth is seriously poor compared to the rest of the week - put more trains on and they'll get filled.

 

[jon0844]

But GTR have been operating the largest driver recruitment programme ever for the last 3 years - what are these drivers going to be doing?

Seriously, the Sunday service at stations like Knebworth is seriously poor compared to the rest of the week - put more trains on and they'll get filled.

Hourly is just about manageable, even if it messes with your ability to just turn up and go, if there isn't the high risk of a train being cancelled and now it's TWO hours. I know GTR to its credit will sometimes put a stop order on another service, but that's not ideal if you don't know and have to wait and pray, or if the train you are directed to is now far more crowded as a result.

 

[otomous]

But GTR have been operating the largest driver recruitment programme ever for the last 3 years - what are these drivers going to be doing?

Seriously, the Sunday service at stations like Knebworth is seriously poor compared to the rest of the week - put more trains on and they'll get filled.

That’s just to cover the current and planned timetable, which gives you an idea of how much the industry is relying on rest day work now.

I agree with your observations. My local line has busier Sunday trains than weekday rush hours sometimes due to the poor frequency.

 

[bramling]

That’s just to cover the current and planned timetable, which gives you an idea of how much the industry is relying on rest day work now.

I agree with your observations. My local line has busier Sunday trains than weekday rush hours sometimes due to the poor frequency.

The traditional way of doing things was that Saturdays tended to get the weekday off-peak service, and Sunday got a reduced service but with train lengths extended to make up capacity. This worked well as it allowed a reduced number of duties on Saturdays due to no peak service, and a further reduction in duties on Sundays due to the further service reduction.

Unfortunately, things haven't kept up with the massive increase in weekend demand, either extra services are needed, or train lengths need to be further increased.

However, in the case of the stopping Cambridge/Peterborough to London at weekends, the problem is simple. The service is exactly the same as it was in the 1990s - the same frequency on Saturday as in the 1990s, and only one extra tph on Sundays, and the same train lengths - 4 cars. This was only just about adequate then, and it's grossly inadequate now. Quite simply no TOC has bothered to deal with this to any meaningful extent. One or two extra tidal flow services just hasn't made the difference.

A look at the Sunday WAGN timetable from the 1990s is quite revealing.
1tph KX-Finsbury Park-Stevenage-Hitchin-Letchworth-Baldock-Royston-Cambridge.
1tph KX-Cambridge and stations to Kings Lynn.
1tph KX-Finsbury Park-Potters Bar-Hatfield and all stations to Peterborough.
1tph Hitchin-Cambridge all stations.

I bet most services were 4-cars too.

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage is fortunate on Sundays as we get 2 fast Trains an hour, one from Peterborough, the other Cambridge. This is the same as the Off peak weekday service. Pretty much all operate as 8-cars.

We only get one stopper an hour though, compared to two an hour which is the standard Off peak service every other day of the week. This is what causes the issue at stations south of Stevenage on Sundays.

Even the 8-car fasts are standing room only throughout much of the day...

 

[bramling]

Stevenage is fortunate on Sundays as we get 2 fast Trains an hour, one from Peterborough, the other Cambridge. This is the same as the Off peak weekday service. Pretty much all operate as 8-cars.

We only get one stopper an hour though, compared to two an hour which is the standard Off peak service every other day of the week. This is what causes the issue at stations south of Stevenage on Sundays.

Stevenage is fortunate on Sundays as we get 2 fast Trains an hour, one from Peterborough, the other Cambridge. This is the same as the Off peak weekday service. Pretty much all operate as 8-cars.

We only get one stopper an hour though, compared to two an hour which is the standard Off peak service every other day of the week. This is what causes the issue at stations south of Stevenage on Sundays.

Even the 8-car fasts are standing room only throughout much of the day...

Even the 8-car fasts are standing room only throughout much of the day...

Don't forget that on Sundays there is no XX45 KX-Cambridge service, so compared to the rest of the week this means more people on other services. The KX-FP-Stevenage-Hitchin-Letchworth-Baldock-Royston-Cambridge service could well do with being 12-car to make up for this. Not sure if Baldock can take a 12-car train though?

 

[lammergeier]

That’s about right. Thing is everyone thinks all the class 700 long distance services are going to be 12-car but how can they be when most of them are only 8-car. GTR/DfT don’t want us to know this!

I’ve been asking this question for years but no-one’s managed to come with an answer yet.

How much extra capacity is there going to be in the peaks?

No more services can operate so enhancements have to come from lengthening trains. Currently every service in the peaks is 8 or 12-car (there are a very small number in the shoulder peak that are 4 but it isn’t really relevant in the grand scheme of things)

A 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12-car 365
An 8-car 700 has fewer seats than an 8-car 365

What we need are 12-car 700s replacing 8-car 365s but we know this isn’t possible in many cases because the majority of 700s only have 8.

It’s starting to unravel and that’s before we look at the robustness of the service when it starts running through the core...

Is there an operational reason why many have been ordered as 8 car (platform lengths on certain routes, for example?) If not is it feasible for them to be extended to 12 car at a future date, a la Pendos and London Overground?

 

[Roast Veg]

I think some of the stations on the south side of the river are unable take 12, particularly on the Sutton loop.

 

[jon0844]

Is there an operational reason why many have been ordered as 8 car (platform lengths on certain routes, for example?) If not is it feasible for them to be extended to 12 car at a future date, a la Pendos and London Overground?

Given the coach numbering on 700s it would seem it's quite possible to add the missing coaches at a later stage.

 

[Failed Unit]

Given the coach numbering on 700s it would seem it's quite possible to add the missing coaches at a later stage.

I am sure they could but realistically only a short window exists. 170s, 220s, 221s and 185s could / should have all had extra coaches ordered to meet demand. Couldn’t happen for many reasons such as production line closures, change in regulations etc. However notice all above have Diesel engines the managed to do the Pendo’s so maybe easier on an EMU. I remember central trains defence of ordering 2 Car 170s was extra centre cars could be added. When they were needed it was not possible.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there an operational reason why many have been ordered as 8 car (platform lengths on certain routes, for example?) If not is it feasible for them to be extended to 12 car at a future date, a la Pendos and London Overground?

There are 14 8-car sidings at Bedford and only 5 12-car ones. Siding space will be a factor elsewhere too.

It will be interesting to see how they balance the 12-car workings to Bedford with the 8-car sidings.

If you look through the 41 8-car diagrams posted elsewhere, at present all of them do something which means they can't be 12-car, either Sutton, Sevenoaks or Bedford Carriage Sidings.

 

[ComUtoR]

If you look through the 41 8-car diagrams posted elsewhere, at present all of them do something which means they can't be 12-car, either Sutton, Sevenoaks or Bedford Carriage Sidings.

Isn't this why Cricklewood was rebuilt and why there will be a depot located there ?

 

[APUK002]

There's one about the hustle alarm too, and I think also about keeping seats free and/or using luggage racks.

Earlier this week, I was on a GN 387 that had a few messages I'd not heard before. One about 'in this hot weather....' that had the train laughing - it wasn't hot - and told people about not using the alarm if you feel unwell, but to get off at a station for help, followed by a request to move bags and coats from seats and then to move down to let other people on. The driver did that one two or three times and NOBODY took a blind bit of notice even though the train was busy.

I sort of pictured the driver scrolling through a list in the cab and picking random ones for fun!

Ha ,is it the driver that selects these messages,from 387 tms?

 

[APUK002]

Given the coach numbering on 700s it would seem it's quite possible to add the missing coaches at a later stage.

Hmm, can just make the8 char 1’s in to 12’s?

 

[Goldfish62]

If rail travel drops there will be even less money to pay for train modification.

Unless you decide that, like the bus industry, investing in improving vehicle comfort is worth it to stem the tide of reducing passengers and revenue. But then that would involve taking commercial risk, something that the railways have never been great at.

 

[Hadders]

Ha ,is it the driver that selects these messages,from 387 tms?

Was there an air on failure? It could get quite hot even in winter.

Unless you decide that, like the bus industry, investing in improving vehicle comfort is worth it to stem the tide of reducing passengers and revenue. But then that would involve taking commercial risk, something that the railways have never been great at.

Bus seats get more comfortable while train seats get worse. There is absolutely no need for the bargain basement seats we have on the class 700s. Even the seats on the 345s are far better.

 

[Class465fan]

That’s about right. Thing is everyone thinks all the class 700 long distance services are going to be 12-car but how can they be when most of them are only 8-car. GTR/DfT don’t want us to know this!

I’ve been asking this question for years but no-one’s managed to come with an answer yet.

How much extra capacity is there going to be in the peaks?

No more services can operate so enhancements have to come from lengthening trains. Currently every service in the peaks is 8 or 12-car (there are a very small number in the shoulder peak that are 4 but it isn’t really relevant in the grand scheme of things)

A 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12-car 365
An 8-car 700 has fewer seats than an 8-car 365

What we need are 12-car 700s replacing 8-car 365s but we know this isn’t possible in many cases because the majority of 700s only have 8.

It’s starting to unravel and that’s before we look at the robustness of the service when it starts running through the core...

Not exactly progress if a 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12-car 365 with ironing seats that are only suitable for short distance journey that is of course not suitable for longer distance journeys.

 

[Class465fan]

Was there an air on failure? It could get quite hot even in winter.



Bus seats get more comfortable while train seats get worse. There is absolutely no need for the bargain basement seats we have on the class 700s. Even the seats on the 345s are far better.

I always wondered why the seats on newer trains become more and more uncomfortable nowadays?

 

[JonathanH]

Bus seats get more comfortable while train seats get worse. There is absolutely no need for the bargain basement seats we have on the class 700s. Even the seats on the 345s are far better.

Are bus seats getting more comfortable? I can't think of a model of bus seat I would want to see in a train instead of the seats on a class 700.

A class 700 with bus seats would not be more comfortable than what we have ended up with.

 

[Hadders]

Are bus seats getting more comfortable? I can't think of a model of bus seat I would want to see in a train instead of the seats on a class 700.

A class 700 with bus seats would not be more comfortable than what we have ended up with.

I've seen Stagecoach Gold buses with leather seats.

 

[JonathanH]

I've seen Stagecoach Gold buses with leather seats.

Yes, me too. Doesn't mean I'd want those seats in class 700s. Covering a seat with leather does not make it comfortable (in fact some would say the opposite), it is about the padding.

 

[Hadders]

Yes, me too. Doesn't mean I'd want those seats in class 700s. Covering a seat with leather does not make it comfortable (in fact some would say the opposite), it is about the padding.

I'd take them over the ironing boards in a 700.