Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Failed Unit]

True with respect to the build but my understanding (which may be incorrect) was 12 car operating on all services through Gatwick and 8 on the other routes.

Cambridge- Brighton and Peterborough- Horsham ticking the 12 car box.

I find it interesting the predictions on where people will travel to. I don't know myself I could.

1. Go directly into Moorgate on a slow.
2. Change at Farringdon into Moorgate
3. Leave at Farringdon and walk. (Although unlikely to pay the tax to leave at that station)

 

[jopsuk]

I doubt it.

The majority of the 700s are 8-car, not 12. My strong suspicion is the 8-cars will do the majority of services on the GN side. I'm not saying there won't be some 12-cars but I bet they'll be in the minority.

The Cambridge-Brighton and Peterborough-Horsham are to be 12 car routes. Cambridge-Maidstone East and the peak time Welwyn are to be 8 car routes.

 

[Class377/5]

I doubt it.

The majority of the 700s are 8-car, not 12. My strong suspicion is the 8-cars will do the majority of services on the GN side. I'm not saying there won't be some 12-cars but I bet they'll be in the minority.

He's talking about the GN fleet in general. The 365/387 will be 12 cars to Peterborough and Cambridge with 8 cars to Kings Lynn in the peaks. The Cambridge branch sees 6tph all day along with increases in capacity on the 717 routes means a lot more capacity to carry people. Currently there are very few 12 cars compared to 2018 and there will be more seats so why like the 700s will have less seats on each train but overall there a big increase. Take Bedford as an example, people compare that the 700 12 cars have less seats that todays. That is correct. However pre 700s there was only three peak 12 cars in the peak direct. Rest were 4/8 cars. Now fact in 8tph of 12 cars an hour and you now have a big increase in seats. I believe that overall Bedford gets a 40% uplift (If I remember correctly) in seats. So there are more seats overall.

 

[Failed Unit]

The Cambridge branch sees 6tph all day along with increases in capacity on the 717 routes means a lot more capacity to carry people.

Do we know how may seats and the layout of the 717s yet? The Welwyn Branch will only get 4tph in the peak, but I don't know how capacity compares to the 313s. I expect the 717s to be better as we have 2 cabs less for a start and also speculating they will be 2+2.

Don't mention the better frequency to Welham Green and Brookmans park passengers

 

[Class377/5]

Do we know how may seats and the layout of the 717s yet? The Welwyn Branch will only get 4tph in the peak, but I don't know how capacity compares to the 313s. I expect the 717s to be better as we have 2 cabs less for a start and also speculating they will be 2+2.

Don't mention the better frequency to Welham Green and Brookmans park passengers

While I haven't personally seen anything. My understanding is they are just as 6 car 707. There will be more seats than half a 700 tho as they lose toilets giving extra seating areas. Don't forget either than Hornsey and Harringay under the current GTR plan see a 50% reduction in service compared to today.

The 717 will be 2+2.

 

[notverydeep]

At a recent Meet the Manager session at King's Cross, I asked the seating capacity of a class 717 and was told it would be about 370 (including some tip up seats if I remember correctly). This compares to 462 for a 6 car class 313 as refurbished in WAGN days. This is a 20% reduction per train, however the increase to 14 tph to Moorgate in 2018 means that there will actually be an increase in seats of about 750 per peak to Moorgate.

If only the same were true for the faster service to / from Welwyn Garden City. On the 12 car 8 car choice for GN services there is an easy rule of thum to tell which service will have 12 cars and which 8 cars. The 8 car trains all have the word 'Welwyn' somewhere in their stopping pattern. So from the consultation TL5 and TL6 are 12 cars, TL7 and TL8 8 cars. On GB GN1 and GN3 would be 12 cars, GN2 would be 8 cars. GN2 has the most bizarre feature of the whole exercise, it increases the fast service to Welwyn North to 4 tph, While Welwyn Garden City has only 2 tph fast, despite having five times the passenger demand!

 

[Failed Unit]

Will try not to go too deep as we have a thread about the timetable changes, but I guess the big thing about the Moorgate branch is crush loadings. I think when it gets full around New Barnet on the Welwyn Branch as long as people are not left behind it will be viewed as an improvement. I certainly on the fasts view a seat as a luxary getting on at WGC. The other thing I will really welcome about the 700s is actaully getting on a fast train at WGC at all at the weekend. No more 4 crush loaded 4 cars!

I am not sure how full the faster service leave Stevenage, but I understand that many people join the slower service running 4 minutes afterwards at Stevenage. Hopefully if they can get a seat on the fastest option us station that are not getting an improvement will benefit from displaced passengers. The trians will come from Cambridge so Royston, Ashwell and Morden, Baldock, Letchworth, Hitchin and Stevenage will all have fast 12 car alternatives so hopefully lots of seats for us futher south. we will see.

As for Welwyn North? Why? I really hope network rail block this on performance grounds. Increasing the service on the only 2 track section of the route seems like path hogging to me.

 

[Hadders]

Anyone travelling from Stevenage to Kings Cross would always get the xx06 and xx36 as these are fast to Finsbury Park and often 8-car.

The xx10 and xx40 services as used by Stevenage passengers of they are travelling to intermediate stations, not for those going to Kings Cross as they are much slower than the train just 4 minutes earlier. They are usually only 4-cars as well due to the platform lengths at the village stations.

 

[Class377/5]

Welwyn North will receive 4tph where as Welwyn GC receives other services meaning it gets a total of 6tph (peak)/ 4tph off peak Thameslink and 4tph GN Metro services.

 

[Failed Unit]

Welwyn North will receive 4tph where as Welwyn GC receives other services meaning it gets a total of 6tph (peak)/ 4tph off peak Thameslink and 4tph GN Metro services.

That is the proposal, but I am hoping it is blocked considering that it takes 2 paths to stop compared to fast services and Welwyn North is a major cause of delays on the ECML at the moment.

 

[notverydeep]

Welwyn North will receive 4tph where as Welwyn GC receives other services meaning it gets a total of 6tph (peak)/ 4tph off peak Thameslink and 4tph GN Metro services.

Interesting, as that is not how it appears in the 2018 timetable consultation document. This suggests that WGC is to be served by: TL7 (2 tph all day) Cambridge Slow, calling at Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park then the core compared to 2 tph now calling only at Finsbury Park and King's Cross in the high peak. The extra stops add quite a lot of run time as they remove some or perhaps all of the fast line running SB. The other non GN metro service would be TL8 WGC to Sevenoaks (2 tph peak only) calling at Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Finsbury Park then the core, as now except for some trains which also call at Alexandra Palace. Aside from these are the GN Metro services to Moorgate.

Service GN2, which according to the consultation document adds another 2 tph to make the 4 tph at Welwyn Garden City is non-stop between Welwyn North and King's Cross. At present, only one SB AM high peak train (1R47 0732 Royston - King's Cross) and one NB PM high peak train (1C96 1823 King's Cross - Cambridge) do this.

In my understanding of the consultation document none of GN1, GN3, TL5 and TL6 will call at WGC. I assume this is because they will mostly be formed of 12 cars. Another 2 tph peak would be very welcome and is just what I suggested in my consultation response. I suggested it might be achieved by dropping the Welwyn North stop on GN2, which seems like a waste of capacity over the two track Digswell Viaduct section, though I assume that one high peak train in each direction would still need to stop there. I would be very happy if you were able to shed any light on which service might be added to make the 6 tph peak at WGC?

 

[Deepgreen]

I doubt it.

The majority of the 700s are 8-car, not 12. My strong suspicion is the 8-cars will do the majority of services on the GN side. I'm not saying there won't be some 12-cars but I bet they'll be in the minority.

A very slim majority, at 60 (8car) to 55 (12car) units. Incidentally, can 700s and 717s run together for rescue purposes?

 

[Class377/5]

That is the proposal, but I am hoping it is blocked considering that it takes 2 paths to stop compared to fast services and Welwyn North is a major cause of delays on the ECML at the moment.

Interesting, as that is not how it appears in the 2018 timetable consultation document. This suggests that WGC is to be served by: TL7 (2 tph all day) Cambridge Slow, calling at Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park then the core compared to 2 tph now calling only at Finsbury Park and King's Cross in the high peak. The extra stops add quite a lot of run time as they remove some or perhaps all of the fast line running SB. The other non GN metro service would be TL8 WGC to Sevenoaks (2 tph peak only) calling at Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Finsbury Park then the core, as now except for some trains which also call at Alexandra Palace. Aside from these are the GN Metro services to Moorgate.

Service GN2, which according to the consultation document adds another 2 tph to make the 4 tph at Welwyn Garden City is non-stop between Welwyn North and King's Cross. At present, only one SB AM high peak train (1R47 0732 Royston - King's Cross) and one NB PM high peak train (1C96 1823 King's Cross - Cambridge) do this.

In my understanding of the consultation document none of GN1, GN3, TL5 and TL6 will call at WGC. I assume this is because they will mostly be formed of 12 cars. Another 2 tph peak would be very welcome and is just what I suggested in my consultation response. I suggested it might be achieved by dropping the Welwyn North stop on GN2, which seems like a waste of capacity over the two track Digswell Viaduct section, though I assume that one high peak train in each direction would still need to stop there. I would be very happy if you were able to shed any light on which service might be added to make the 6 tph peak at WGC?

Actually I got it wrong, but I cannot find the source of 4th all day to Welwyn North either.

Welwyn GC gets 6tph off peak/8th peak
TL7 8 car 2tph all day
TL8 8 car 2tph peak only
GN5 6 car 4th all day

Welwyn North get 2tph off peak/4th pesk
TL7 8 car 2tph all day
GN2 8/12 car peak only

However due to the layout, I'm not sure an additional 2tph can stop at Welwyn as the path that does that has more impact that Welwyn North meaning it needs a bigger window which may not be there with the extra trains (both GTR and intercity especially ones) which out causing the next express to slow down and a ripple effect.

A very slim majority, at 60 (8car) to 55 (12car) units. Incidentally, can 700s and 717s run together for rescue purposes?

The relying on the technical defination but it's a slim margin at best like you state.

700 and 717s will be able to run together without issues. Bit like 375/376 or 377/387 that have run together.

 

[notverydeep]

Actually I got it wrong, but I cannot find the source of 4th all day to Welwyn North either.

Sorry, I was essentially talking about the peak and should have highlighted in my posts that the proposed extra 2 tph at Welwyn North shown in the consultation document as is service GN2 and Peak / High Peak only, not all day. Apologies if I have stated it as all day somewhere in error.

For the same reasons as you, I am sceptical that this extra 2 tph is a viable proposal (especially in the PM peak, there are fewer long distance trains SB in the AM peak) and if it is, surely the extra time the stopping path requires would be better used by extra services, either GTR or long distance.

Ultimately the 4 tph + 4 tph Metro peak at Welwyn Garden City is as now, but with fewer seats and in the case of what are now the fastest trains, a longer run to London, which is why WGC contributors are not very happy. I do accept that for many other groups of passengers in many other locations, the Thameslink upgrade provides a big improvement.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe less seats on a 717 over a 6-car 313, but significantly more standing and moving room. It's going to make a HUGE difference.

Those who once got a seat may well be upset, but they'll probably not have to worry about being crushed - unless of course we see situations where one or two services are cancelled due to driver shortages, an as yet unnoticed design fault that takes trains out of service or whatever.

 

[philjo]

I did suggest in my consultation response that one of the 4tph that are due to go non-stop from Stevenage to finsbury park should also call at WGC, especially if it helps connections with the Peterborough line as otherwise WGC only gets the Cambridge stoppers with a 23 minute connection at Hitchin for Peterborough line stations.

As it stands WGC doesn't have any fast trains and also no direct services to East croydon or Gatwick.

 

[notverydeep]

I haven't really been following the PIS discussion, but the passengers on 1E98 this evening were amused to hear that the next stop would be Bat and Ball when the train was running into Farringdon and then St. Pancras, even taking pictures of the display. I felt like saying that, "yes, there really is a station called that"...

 

[jon0844]

...just not there!

 

[spark001uk]

I was on one a couple of weeks ago that kept announcing STP was the next stop... at every stop!

Well, at least it was correct at one of the stops!!

 

[AM9]

I was on one a couple of weeks ago that kept announcing STP was the next stop... at every stop!

Well, at least it was correct at one of the stops!!

If it was NB, then maybe even the PIS couldn't believe how long it took to get from ECR to BFR.

 

[Timrud]

Looking at the dates the units entered service, I was stuck on 700008 on its first day of service when the doors would not open at Farringdon and then Blackfriars.

They had to be manually released in the end

 

[BRX]

The problem with the idea that the extra capacity on the 700s will lead to less crowded trains is that it's only true where the demand is only a bit higher than what's currently provided. I know that at my local station (Loughborough Junction) many people currently choose to walk 15 minutes to the tube instead of taking a gamble on being able to get on one of the peak hour TL trains, even if the TL route would normally get them to where they want to go more quickly. My guess is that the 700s will quickly fill to their maximum capacity, and the situation will remain the same as at present: they will be so full on arrival that it's often not physically possible to get on at all.

Not to say that the extra capacity isn't a good thing for London's transport system as a whole - but I wonder how many TL passengers will really see any improvement.

 

[AM9]

The problem with the idea that the extra capacity on the 700s will lead to less crowded trains is that it's only true where the demand is only a bit higher than what's currently provided. I know that at my local station (Loughborough Junction) many people currently choose to walk 15 minutes to the tube instead of taking a gamble on being able to get on one of the peak hour TL trains, even if the TL route would normally get them to where they want to go more quickly. My guess is that the 700s will quickly fill to their maximum capacity, and the situation will remain the same as at present: they will be so full on arrival that it's often not physically possible to get on at all.

Not to say that the extra capacity isn't a good thing for London's transport system as a whole - but I wonder how many TL passengers will really see any improvement.

Well given an 8-car class 700 has a much increased capacity over an 8-car 319 or 377, the new trains will cope better with the projected load for a few years yet. The alternative is to ignore the rise in demand and have an increasing number of passengers unable to board at all. There aren't many passengers who would walk to the nearest tube station, either because there aren't any tube lines near them or because the tube line itself will be even more crowded.
So to answer your wondering, yes, most TL passengers will see an improvement both in capacity and speed, but maybe in the vicinity of Loughborough Junction, there won't be much change so there will be increased pavement jams. That is until the silly service through the core is given up and the released capacity enables an increased service round the Sutton loop to Blackfriars.

 

[MikePJ]

According to this tweet from Richard Clinnick at Rail, Hornsey Cl 700 depot opens today. Anyone heard anything? https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/808191597322051584


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jon0844]

According to this tweet from Richard Clinnick at Rail, Hornsey Cl 700 depot opens today. Anyone heard anything? https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/808191597322051584

I saw a 700 part way in the doors a week or two ago, so thought it was already open. Must have just been testing.

 

[swt class 450]

I see that yesterday the 18:35 Brighton to Bedford 21:05 (which was worked by a 700) service was cancelled due to a fault with the train (i forgot to check the unit number). There seems to be a lot of faults with these 700s recently. Does anyone know exactly what this fault was?

 

[Class377/5]

The problem with the idea that the extra capacity on the 700s will lead to less crowded trains is that it's only true where the demand is only a bit higher than what's currently provided. I know that at my local station (Loughborough Junction) many people currently choose to walk 15 minutes to the tube instead of taking a gamble on being able to get on one of the peak hour TL trains, even if the TL route would normally get them to where they want to go more quickly. My guess is that the 700s will quickly fill to their maximum capacity, and the situation will remain the same as at present: they will be so full on arrival that it's often not physically possible to get on at all.

Not to say that the extra capacity isn't a good thing for London's transport system as a whole - but I wonder how many TL passengers will really see any improvement.

It's worth noting that the figures for Thameslink have proven to be an underestimate. IIRC the TLP figures for 2020 are already passed on some routes and continue to increase.

TfL are now talking about the 10% extra capacity for all of London that Crossrail brings being filled pretty much at the start of full services in December 2019 and are thinking about increasing capacity already!

Thameslink has gone from 4x 12 car trains per peak a year ago to 11x 12 cars now. Every time there's been extra capacity, its gone within weeks as people fill it quickly.

However from Loughborough Junction, the question is jump on trains from elsewhere close to Central London or go to the Victoria Line and join a train at the start of its journey. Its similar situation with Wimbledon to Blackfriars. You can see why people go to the Tube with the higher frequencies and far better chance of a seat than Thameslink. Not that everyone has this choice tho but the more choice, the better everyone is. .

Well given an 8-car class 700 has a much increased capacity over an 8-car 319 or 377, the new trains will cope better with the projected load for a few years yet. The alternative is to ignore the rise in demand and have an increasing number of passengers unable to board at all. There aren't many passengers who would walk to the nearest tube station, either because there aren't any tube lines near them or because the tube line itself will be even more crowded.
So to answer your wondering, yes, most TL passengers will see an improvement both in capacity and speed, but maybe in the vicinity of Loughborough Junction, there won't be much change so there will be increased pavement jams. That is until the silly service through the core is given up and the released capacity enables an increased service round the Sutton loop to Blackfriars.

Giving up on thorough service through the Core would lead to a big reduction in service at terminating capacity in London is at a premium. Running trains through London and terminating the other side means more trains can be run. For example on a two track section like Blackfriars to St Pancras you'd be lucky to run 12tph in total, half what Thameslink can provide (and not it full capacity).

Of if you mean running services to Blackfriars only, well your still limited to paths through Herne Hill so there isn't going to be much difference from the current offering of 6tph (4x TL and 2x SN). Also replacing 700s with either 377s or 455s (or even 319s) means there capacity increase isn't as great as pure carriage numbers suggest.

According to this tweet from Richard Clinnick at Rail, Hornsey Cl 700 depot opens today. Anyone heard anything? https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/808191597322051584

Siemens Hornsey Depot has been a staffed depot for awhile now, its juts the official opening for the press. 700102 is current there having work done on it.

I saw a 700 part way in the doors a week or two ago, so thought it was already open. Must have just been testing.

Sounds like testing. Units have been going into and out the depot for over a year now. There was pictures of a 313s in the Siemens shed last year IIRC.

 

[MikePJ]

Siemens Hornsey Depot has been a staffed depot for awhile now, its juts the official opening for the press. 700102 is current there having work done on it.
.

Thanks! Puts me in mind of an excellent sign I saw at the University of York some years ago: "Wentworth College will be closed tomorrow for its official opening"

 

[Verulamius]

Are the 700s going through the Canal Tunnels to get to Hornsey, or is the round the houses route still used?

 

[387star]

When is wifi due