The value of a trade union

[scotsman]

I joined RMT when I started. A few people asked why (non-railway types), 13 months later they sent two people to represent the eight of us facing redundancy. They almost certainly bought us a few extra weeks, some press coverage, a motion in parliament...and redundancy pay. Only two of us had worked there long enough.

 

[83G/84D]

Who do you suggest then ? Unite ? Lol!!

No I am not!

 

[RPM]

I would also strongly recommend you join ASLEF. I'm not going to go into the details, but they came up trumps for me when my job was in jeopardy.

 

[Phil.]

That is good advice.



You are protected under employment laws and many people do well without being in any of the recognised unions.

....right up to the point where you need strong legal advice and support following an unsubstantiated complaint made against you which a five minute manager is all to keen to terminate your employment for.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As a railway employee I strongly suggest you join aslef as a driver. The RMT has members as well but aslef do seem to hold more sway. I am a member of the RMT and do not regret a moment of it.

 

[scotraildriver]

Remember too the unions spend a lot of time negotiating pay deals and conditions. It is a bit rich to happily accept a pay rise negotiated by a union that you don't want to be part of.

 

[rd749249]

Well I have to say that the view is quite unanimous. Of course I will make a judgement based on what I see when I do eventually start but this is quite an eye opener for me. I humbly appreciate the views and advice given here.

I also appreciate the terms and conditions are largely a result of negotiations of the unions and to free ride wouldn't seem right. That alone may seal it for me.

Thanks again

 

[ComUtoR]

Given the difficulty in accessing an employment tribunal these days - not to mention the costs to see someone who actually knows employment law - good luck doing that on your own.

£50k pa and I wouldn't be able to afford legal advice ?

....right up to the point where you need strong legal advice and support following an unsubstantiated complaint made against you which a five minute manager is all to keen to terminate your employment for.

Why use fear to push people into the union ? What I hate the most about the union is that this rhetoric is used quite freely and used to strongarm people into joining.

You can go about your job on a day to day basis without ever needing the union or a sudden requirement for legal advice, which can, be given for free.

Consider what situation would arise that would require such legal advice. Managment doesn't suddenly bully you and sack you 'unjustly' There are also situations where the union will refuse to represent you (as mentioned on other threads)

Those who are in the union "for protection" really shouldn't be in the union. Those are the ones who do our union a disservice and are typicaly the 'ship jumpers" when the proverbial hits the proverbial. The unions are there to provide a safe and fair working environment. They protect terms and conditions from being erroded and negotiate new pay arrangements. They want improvents to the grade and help support safe and sensible implementation of new tech and new rules and regs. They do act as a voice to our grade on a national level and act on our behalf with other aspects of the railway.

What we need is people who will support that philosophy and stand up when required. What we don't need is people who are only there should they mess up.

 

[Themob]

Would someone please advise me please what the subs are please for Aslef and RMT ? Thank you

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Varies on the pay scale.

 

[GB]

£50k pa and I wouldn't be able to afford legal advice ?



Why use fear to push people into the union ? What I hate the most about the union is that this rhetoric is used quite freely and used to strongarm people into joining.

You can go about your job on a day to day basis without ever needing the union or a sudden requirement for legal advice, which can, be given for free.

Consider what situation would arise that would require such legal advice. Managment doesn't suddenly bully you and sack you 'unjustly' There are also situations where the union will refuse to represent you (as mentioned on other threads)

With respect but it doesn't sound like you have been in the job very long....and sorry to burst your bubble, but 50k pa isn't really a great deal if you need actual representation.

I'm sure the guard that is currently the subject of CPS proceedings despite both company and union investigations absolving him of blame is pretty glad he's in the union.

 

[ComUtoR]

It is a bit rich to happily accept a pay rise negotiated by a union that you don't want to be part of.

They don't have a choice. Its all done under collective bargaining agreements.

What about the terms and conditions that are forced on those who do not wish them ? It's just as rich to negotiate for those who do not want a change to their terms.

Again, it is sad that people choose that kind of arguement rather than state the benefit of being part fo the union and having a say in the negotiations and being part of the discussion to help create the new deals.

It is any wonder that outsiders and many on this forum have such a negative view of how we operate the union.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With respect but it doesn't sound like you have been in the job very long....and sorry to burst your bubble, but 50k pa isn't really a great deal if you need actual representation..

I've been in the job for quite some time and been a very active member of the union. I'm also quite a regular at branch. Should I really need to defend myself or is it usual for that arguement to be used when views are challenged.

We are well paid and I like to belive people are capable of paying for legal advice rather than fearmongering. We all have different financial positions but treating people like their paupers and using it as a scare tactic does not represent the union that I am a member of.

I have had cause to seek advice in previous employments and have sought advice whilst being a Driver. ACAS are just one body who can offer that advice and I didn't pay a penny.

As mentioned, IF you are are in such a position where you need serious legal advice then you really need to consider how you got there. It's also worth mentioning that if its got that far then its very much too late. The unions are there to help prevent it getting to that point.

 

[GB]

You call it fearmongering, I call it common sense and if you really object to it that much maybe you should get the EC and CC to stop using it as selling point when they wan't to sign up new members or retain current ones.

Yes everyones financial circumstances are different...for a start not everyone is on a 50k drivers wage and even if they are, I'm sure many could do without the prospect of £1000s worth of legal fees IF the worst happens.

Finally, providing union members adhere to union policies and instructions and pay their way, and while your entitled to you opinion, you really have no right to say who should be in or not or to question their reasons for being in such union.

Its numbers that make up a union, not just the few that you would consider to be the right reason.

 

[ComUtoR]

You call it fearmongering, I call it common sense and if you really object to it that much maybe you should get the EC and CC to stop using it as selling point when they wan't to sign up new members or retain current ones.

I have thanks.

Finally, providing union members adhere to union policies and instructions and pay their way, and while your entitled to you opinion, you really have no right to say who should be in or not or to question their reasons for being in such union.

I am well aware of the process that accepts new members and I do have that right to voice my opinion and decide wether or not someone can join the union.

It's numbers that make up a union, not just the few that you would consider to be the right reason.

Numbers are meaningless when a large portion of your membership will happily jump ship and happily cross the picket lines. There is a serious apathy amongst the membership and that can be seen by how many attend the branch and the number of returned votes.

The days where everyone will down tools at a moments notice is long gone and people will look out for number one. Management can see that weakness and they exploit it.

I have that strength of conviction and will absolutly support the union when called upon to but I am not the majority. Stength in numbers matter when everyone supports the cause. Look at the votes that get returned and you can see how divided the union is. I've seen numbers drop due to various action being taken.

 

[Lockwood]

I'm not a railwayman.
I had a small issue at work, and then joined Unison in case anything more happened.
More stuff happened later, management wouldn't talk to me about it. When a Unison rep contacted them, stuff got dealt with. I think it was just the fear of the weight of the union made them bend and do stuff.
Sadly, I don't get a calendar from them. I did get a biro though.

It's your choice, but I'm thinking of mine as a "job insurance"

 

[455driver]

Everyone is saying to join ASLEF (including me) but at some depots RMT may have the most drivers so my advice would be to join the Union which has the highest headcount (strength in numbers etc) but the choice has to be yours.

Okay the subs might seem a bit steep but remember that when you are up in front of the Boss because some git has made a false accusation against you!

A Union is like house or contents insurance, you hope you never need it but its there 'just in case' you do!

 

[Goldfish62]

A Union is like house or contents insurance, you hope you never need it but its there 'just in case' you do!

Well said. I wish more people would see it, but they believe anti-union propaganda.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Okay the subs might seem a bit steep but remember that when you are up in front of the Boss because some git has made a false accusation against you!
!

.....or indeed, if you have messed up and then you will also need that support.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

ASLEF is the best thirty quid a month you can spend as a driver, said it before, will say it again. From much experience

 

[driver_m]

Having been a member of the RMT and ASLEF (in different jobs) I would say join ASLEF without any hesitation.

 

[tony6499]

Join the union , Aslef or RMT, ASAP, you never know when you might need what they offer. I would have been sunk without the help they gave me

 

[BestWestern]

"...What I hate the most about the union..."

Those who are in the union "for protection" really shouldn't be in the union. Those are the ones who do our union a disservice and are typicaly the 'ship jumpers" when the proverbial hits the proverbial. The unions are there to provide a safe and fair working environment. They protect terms and conditions from being erroded and negotiate new pay arrangements. They want improvents to the grade and help support safe and sensible implementation of new tech and new rules and regs. They do act as a voice to our grade on a national level and act on our behalf with other aspects of the railway.

What we need is people who will support that philosophy and stand up when required. What we don't need is people who are only there should they mess up.

I think that first line sums up your attitude.

The fact is, like it or not, a large majority of 'modern' union members join very much for their 'protection' - hence at least one of the major railway unions is more than happy to advertise and trade on that basis. Joining up absolutely does not mean that a member is expected to immediately buy into the political ideals of the organisation - a trade union is not a cult. People have neither the time nor the inclination to spend several hours of their sunday afternoons sitting at often terminally dull branch meetings, where a much of what is discussed has nothing to do them. Most people really couldn't care less which member is going to represent the branch at the International Beard Growers' Solidarity Conference or what flavour the sausages will be at next year's Cuba Garden Party, or whatever - and indeed why should they?

If a Union really cared that much about every member giving their time and allegiance, they could always attach branch meeting attendance conditions to membership - but of course they don't. I pay about the same for my breakdown cover as I do my union membership. The AA are quite happy to take my money knowing that I have no interest in their organisation whatsoever, unless my car breaks down, in which case I shall expect them to stump up the service I pay them for 'just in case'. That is how a great many people see their union membership, and unions have little choice but to accept that.

 

[David57]

I work in the Bus industry,for one of the big boy groups, where Driver turnover is obviously higher than in the Rail Industry.
We now have a surplus of drivers (fairly common, with peaks and troughs), and my Union have seen 'petty misdemeanours', which Management have tried to cull the platform staff, argue the case for a Driver, who may be 'at sea' with Management.
The first thing I did when I started work for the Big Bus Company, was to join the union for piece of mind.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think that first line sums up your attitude.

Yes it does.

I am proud that I am a member of a union that will support its members and actively work towards a better working environment for everyone.

I am proud that I am a member of a union that will act in the best interests of safety and give a voice to those who need to be heard.

I am proud that I am a member of a union who works towards protecting employee rights and proud of my union when it puts its neck on the line for a single employee who may have been treated unfairly.

I will support them and I will speak towards the value of a trade union to be one of positive goals for a railway that is better for everyone.

I know people are in it for themselves and I know that the union has its own failings. I know full well how they operate and full well that they will sometimes sell out and compromise their own beliefs.

Many on this forum will jump to the unions defence but when the time comes they look out for themselves because they are purely in it for "protection" I have seen my terms and conditions eroded because people will not support the union when the proverbial hits the proverbial. The strength of the union is a joke when its own members look out for themselves only.

There is a thread all about DOO/DCO and the unions stance on it. That is the value of a trade union. When we have a huge portion of the membership that will simply sell out to the highest bidder or jump ship when trouble strikes what kind of brother do you want to stand beside you ?

I'm by no means a cultist and I'm not naive either. I oft speak against some union practices and in all honesty I'm a little cynical but I have been both sides of the fence and I know which side I prefer. So forgive me if I'm being a little OTT but the question was asked about the value of the union and my belief is that it whilst unity is strength. True strength relies on the conviction of its members.

 

[DarloRich]

I would always say you should join a union. I am sure i should extol the virtues of collective strength and togetherness and workers rights and striving for a fairer society. I am sure that attracts some, but what attracts most is the protection and representation in case of something going wrong.

If it does go wrong, and it could well go wrong for all kinds of reasons you can call on some decent local support and representation for your issues ( someone like me - an argumentative pita!) and should the worst happen access to decent quality legal advice and support. With an employment tribunal claim costing £1500 to bring that support could be the difference between obtaining justice and being shafted.

You also get a pen and a diary, which for me are the clinchers

People have neither the time nor the inclination to spend several hours of their sunday afternoons sitting at often terminally dull branch meetings, where a much of what is discussed has nothing to do them.

I take issue with that - union branch meetings are ALWAYS terminally dull ( and i am the branch chairman!)

 

[ExRes]

You also get a pen and a diary, which for me are the clinchers

A pen why have I never had a pen ?

Seriously though, I was a union member from when I started work to when I finished for that main reason, protection, but let's not lionise union membership without question though, I was off driving for two years on medical grounds waiting on a safety case being written by my TOC, the union input over those two years ?, absolutely sweet fanny adams, I resumed driving due to the efforts of my HR Manager and Driver Manager and I'm still waiting, roughly ten years later, for a promised phone call from a man who now holds the most senior position in ASLEF, some backing I got for my membership

 

[embers25]

You also get a pen and a diary, which for me are the clinchers

What about the little badge that at least the RMT seem to get...not sure about ASLEF? Surely they should issue strike banners on sign up to save time later too?!

 

[notadriver]

I work in the Bus industry,for one of the big boy groups, where Driver turnover is obviously higher than in the Rail Industry.
We now have a surplus of drivers (fairly common, with peaks and troughs), and my Union have seen 'petty misdemeanours', which Management have tried to cull the platform staff, argue the case for a Driver, who may be 'at sea' with Management.
The first thing I did when I started work for the Big Bus Company, was to join the union for piece of mind.

A surplus of drivers ? That is worrying - I thought there was a general shortage in the pcv industry.

It's great that at least there is union representation in the bus industry. I'm a (casual) coach driver and they aren't at all unionised. As a result wages are lower than bus drivers, and bosses make their staff work very long hours, called in at a moments notice, days off changed by force etc and if you don't agree there's the door (!).

 

[BestWestern]

A surplus of drivers ? That is worrying - I thought there was a general shortage in the pcv industry.

It's great that at least there is union representation in the bus industry. I'm a (casual) coach driver and they aren't at all unionised. As a result wages are lower than bus drivers, and bosses make their staff work very long hours, called in at a moments notice, days off changed by force etc and if you don't agree there's the door (!).

Unfortunately, the union presence at most bus depots is little more than token gesture; they tend to achieve little. Companies still treat their driving staff abysmally, and will dismiss people at will with complete impunity. It's a world away from what unions achieve on the railway.

 

[misterredmist]

I hope you've got all the advice you wanted, and I wish you well in your new post !