Todmorden Curve

[YorkshireBear]

Returning to the rolling stock problem, I think there is an assertion in the current issue of "Rail" that Northern do not have any routes where DMUs are diagrammed for routes which are electrified throughout, and therefore cannot be released by the 317s in store and/or the 6 319s they are to receive in May.

We are talking about these units releasing DMUs after Phase two of NW electrification is finished.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if we should start another thread on cross-Manchester services as this is obviously a complex subject in its own right.

There is nothing stopping this happening. Let the moderators know that you are doing this and ask then to transfer any other postings from this thread that relate to your new thread, which will leave this thread to be a vehicle for discussions on the railway services which will eventually use Todmorden Chord and its route up the Copy Pit line.

 

[northwichcat]

Chester, Buxton, Crewe? And this thread is titled "TODMORDEN CURVE".

I was giving reasons why the Hazel Grove-Preston service can't be cut to free up a DMU for a Burnley service, which was what someone suggested. It's a lot more on topic than some of the posts in this thread!

 

[dfurn]

Only a few days left to go until the works on the Holme tunnel start on 9th November 2013 up to 28th March 2014.

As many of you will be aware there's a replacement timetable in operation as these works progress. Northern have printed versions of these with a photo of the tunnel itself which, to my eyes, you can see the misshapenness of the entrance. If you follow the dedicated web page there's even a Youtube video showing the reconstruction. I find these fascinating for some reason. Mind you I'm not inconvenienced by the work I suppose.

 

[spongsdad]

Took this at Copy Pit today. Not much to see but running lines buffered off and work well under way in tunnel. Winter also showing its arrival!

 

[Ploughman]

Watching the reconstruction video.
Are we going to end up with "Wrong road " running?

 

[Darren R]

Are we going to end up with "Wrong road " running?

I've wondered that occasionally too. The Working Timetable book for the route (YG02) has a line marked "departure line" from Burnley Manchester Road but only towards Leeds. Since there is no facility for 'wrong road' departure I did wonder fleetingly whether there were plans to change this at some point, but it would require a crossover putting in as well as the signalling changes necessary. I decided a typo of some sort was a more likely explanation!

 

[ianhr]

Does anyone know if engineering trains will run either from the Burnley side or from Todmorden (or both) in connection with the tunnel works, or will all materials travel by road?

 

[spongsdad]

Does anyone know if engineering trains will run either from the Burnley side or from Todmorden (or both) in connection with the tunnel works, or will all materials travel by road?

I was past the site yesterday. The works compound is on the Todmorden side of the tunnel, but as my photo showed, there are buffer stops on the track and beyond them, the compound is fenced off. In the tunnel the track is lifted so I imagine there wouldn't be much point in trying to bring materials by rail from the Burnley direction. Interestingly too, the track to Todmorden has a further set of buffer stops on each running line about half a mile down the incline from Copy Pit, so it doesn't seem that there will be any delivery of materials from that direction any time soon.

 

[edwin_m]

I think this actually means trains will be approaching the site, otherwise why go to the bother of providing buffer stops? Marker boards etc are normally considered adequate to protect possessions even when a train running though would hit many of the workforce and maybe derail as well.

 

[spongsdad]

I think this actually means trains will be approaching the site, otherwise why go to the bother of providing buffer stops? Marker boards etc are normally considered adequate to protect possessions even when a train running though would hit many of the workforce and maybe derail as well.

Well, you could be right; but why the provision of additional buffer stops further down the line?

 

[Ploughman]

Maybe for the use of on site Road Rail vehicles and trailers.
To ensure that they cannot run away too far and disrupt remaining services.
Not sure what the gradient is through the work site but when planning for crane working, and this includes RR vehicles, then gradient protection measures may be required.

 

[Sox]

I think this actually means trains will be approaching the site, otherwise why go to the bother of providing buffer stops? Marker boards etc are normally considered adequate to protect possessions even when a train running though would hit many of the workforce and maybe derail as well.

Is the fitment of buffer stops not something that came out of the Tebay Rail Incident. The idea being to "box in" the workforce (especially bearing in mind the long duration of the works)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tebay_rail_accident

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The postman has just delivered my copy of the Modern Railways December issue and at the top of page 12, there is a small article about the proposed new service being delayed by rolling stock not being resourced in time for the original proposed starting date. Perhaps the news will now spread exterior to the normal North West news coverage.

 

[davetheguard]

The postman has just delivered my copy of the Modern Railways December issue and at the top of page 12, there is a small article about the proposed new service being delayed by rolling stock not being resourced in time for the original proposed starting date. Perhaps the news will now spread exterior to the normal North West news coverage.

I'm glad he's delivered your copy; he seems to have forgotten mine!

Yet another occasion when it's at the station newsagent's before it arrives through the post.......:roll:

 

[Darren R]

The postman has just delivered my copy of the Modern Railways December issue and at the top of page 12, there is a small article about the proposed new service being delayed by rolling stock not being resourced in time for the original proposed starting date. Perhaps the news will now spread exterior to the normal North West news coverage.

Hmm, I wouldn't hold my breath. Even though it's been reported locally there appears to have been very little comment, let alone anything approaching the kind of political storm needed for the DfT to pull its collective finger out and sort out this farce.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suppose that there would be an opportunity afforded in the period from March 2014 until the rolling stock problem is solved to really enter into the historical spirit of the Copy Pit line operation by using the three preserved and restored Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway coaches that are to be found on the Keighley and Worth Valley railway in the correct two-tone livery. I am unsure as if there are any Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway locomotives available that are not awaiting service work on them at present. Anyone with any news on the L & Y Class 27 0-6-0 52322 ?
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My wife and I were in Manchester today, visiting the Christmas markets, when we saw some very modern and new double-deck buses on the X43 "Lancashire Witch" services on the East Lancashire to Manchester service which seemed "packed to the rafters".

 

[Darren R]

I suppose that there would be an opportunity afforded in the period from March 2014 until the rolling stock problem is solved to really enter into the historical spirit of the Copy Pit line operation by using the three preserved and restored Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway coaches that are to be found on the Keighley and Worth Valley railway in the correct two-tone livery. I am unsure as if there are any Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway locomotives available that are not awaiting service work on them at present. Anyone with any news on the L & Y Class 27 0-6-0 52322 ?

Now that's the kind of 'blue sky thinking' we need at the DfT! Get's my vote!

It has occurred to me in idle moments that the curve would allow the East Lancashire Railway to run circular mini-tours to/from Bury Bolton Street via Castleton, Todmorden, Accrington, Blackburn, Bolton and Manchester Victoria. Perhaps this is the solution to the otherwise intractable problem of rolling stock?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I suppose that there would be an opportunity afforded in the period from March 2014 until the rolling stock problem is solved to really enter into the historical spirit of the Copy Pit line operation by using the three preserved and restored Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway coaches that are to be found on the Keighley and Worth Valley railway in the correct two-tone livery. I am unsure as if there are any Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway locomotives available that are not awaiting service work on them at present. Anyone with any news on the L & Y Class 27 0-6-0 52322 ?
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My wife and I were in Manchester today, visiting the Christmas markets, when we saw some very modern and new double-deck buses on the X43 "Lancashire Witch" services on the East Lancashire to Manchester service which seemed "packed to the rafters".

http://www.ribblesteam.org.uk/exhibits/steam/39-l-y-aspinall-1300-1896 This one is currently avaliable. That is the one you are on about isn't it?

I suggest this and some Worth Valley Carriages will do the trick.

 

[Darren R]

The politicians are on the case!

From today's Lancashire Telegraph:

Hyndburn MP Graham Jones quizzes minister over railway

HYNDBURN and Haslingden MP Graham Jones has asked the Secretary of State for transport about the provision of rolling stock on the Manchester to Burnley rail line as soon as it is completed.

Stephen Hammond, the government minister, replied: “Department for Transport are working with Northern Rail to develop the train service that will operate on the Manchester to Burnley route in 2014 following completion of the Todmorden curve.

“Northern Rail is currently working on a proposal that they will submit to the DFT for consideration.”

Link: (but to be honest there is nothing else - that's the full article!)
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10833229.Hyndburn_MP_Graham_Jones_quizzes_minister_over_railway/

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one am reassured. Job done. I will now sit back and look forward to the first train - next December.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The politicians are on the case!

From today's Lancashire Telegraph:



Link: (but to be honest there is nothing else - that's the full article!)
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10833229.Hyndburn_MP_Graham_Jones_quizzes_minister_over_railway/

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one am reassured. Job done. I will now sit back and look forward to the first train - next December.

Do not forget that both the months of March and of December fall in 2014 and the Government statement ignores the implications of both of these two months.

 

[Darren R]

Do not forget that both the months of March and of December fall in 2014 and the Government statement ignores the implications of both of these two months.

Yes - I noticed that (and came to the same conclusion!)
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There has, according to today's Lancashire Telegraph, been "an announcement"!

Trains may switch to new route to Burnley

TRAINS from the Liverpool to Manchester route could be used for the Manchester to Burnley route from 2014, it was announced.

The Department of Transport (DFT) is working with Northern Rail to develop the Manchester to Burnley train route in 2014, the House of Commons heard.

Hyndburn and Haslingden MP, Graham Jones, asked Secretary of State for Transport, Patrick McLoughlin, what steps he was taking to ensure there would be rolling stock.

Conservative MP for Wimbledon, Stephen Hammond, replied: “The DFT are working with Northern Rail to develop the train service that will operate on the Manchester to Burnley route in 2014 following completion of the Todmorden curve.

“Northern Rail is working on a proposal that they will submit to the DFT for consideration. This will include options for the provision of diesel rolling stock to be used on the line.

“Their proposal may include diesel stock released from the electrified route between Liverpool and Manchester.”

The £8.8 million service will be delayed by at least six months because of a lack of trains, the Lancashire Telegraph revealed in October.

Link: (but there is nothing else to add to what I've quoted above!)
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10838210.Trains_may_switch_to_new_route_to_Burnley/

I'm not sure that actually qualifies as "an announcement." No dates, no details, and let's be honest, no surprises either!

 

[Geeves]

Was the release of stock from the Manchester - Liverpool line for the Burnley work not the plan the whole time??

So it still stands that Burnley will be seeing its first direct train next December.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Surely it is almost certain that units released by NW electrification will operate the route.

 

[northwichcat]

Was the release of stock from the Manchester - Liverpool line for the Burnley work not the plan the whole time??

So it still stands that Burnley will be seeing its first direct train next December.

The plan was for electric Manchester-Liverpool services to start by the May 2014 timetable change, which would have meant the new Burnley services would have started 2-3 months after the Todmorden curve opened.

Like I've pointed out before DfT have bent over backwards to ensure that Southern do have extra stock in time for the December 14 timetable but have done nothing to ensure that Northern have extra stock for the May 14 timetable. May 2014 is also the date when North TPE goes 5tph and Northern were also supposed to add extra capacity on the Bolton corridor then.
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According to this article Shadow Transport Secretary Mary Creagh is to write to Patrick McLoughlin and the rolling stock owners in an attempt to resolve the issue of there being no trains until December 2014.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

According to this article Shadow Transport Secretary Mary Creagh is to write to Patrick McLoughlin and the rolling stock owners in an attempt to resolve the issue of there being no trains until December 2014.

Do you think that the efforts of local newspapers in both contacting local councillors and the sitting MP's in both ends of this new line has raised the profile of the Copy Pit line and put pressure on elected people ?

The matter that the services on the Todmorden Chord were to help to invigorate the local economy of the East Lancashire area which was a highlight of the successful bid seems to have been overlooked until the recent publicity on the matter highlighted that specific matter.

 

[spongsdad]

Do you think that the efforts of local newspapers in both contacting local councillors and the sitting MP's in both ends of this new line has raised the profile of the Copy Pit line and put pressure on elected people ?

The matter that the services on the Todmorden Chord were to help to invigorate the local economy of the East Lancashire area which was a highlight of the successful bid seems to have been overlooked until the recent publicity on the matter highlighted that specific matter.

Local MPs and indeed local newspapers have been contacted by contributors to this thread. Maybe they should be given some credit for highlighting the issue. Furthermore, this is no time to relax; all who can should lobby their local representatives to ensure a timely and satisfactory outcome to the problem.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am still looking at this as a Civil Engineer and thinking its been closed for 40 years another 6 months is not going to matter especially with the chronic shortage of stock in other parts of the NW (Bolton Corridor). It is an increase of 1.25% in its closed timeline. With immediate benefits to Todmorden.

Existing routes are going to be bursting come next May with the Bolton corridor expecting 17% less capacity. I am afraid the Todmorden curve needs to wait its turn. Celebrate its reinstatement as an achievement.

A Civil Rail Engineer (in this case Network Rail) when offered money to build additional infrastructure should not ask where the trains are going to come from but take the money and run and build it.

Engineers from British Rail would have partied all week on hearing they had £8 million to spend on a curve and would not have even questioned rolling stock. Especially as this £8 million hasn't required them to sell potentially useful operational land.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am still looking at this as a Civil Engineer and thinking its been closed for 40 years another 6 months is not going to matter especially with the chronic shortage of stock in other parts of the NW (Bolton Corridor). It is an increase of 1.25% in its closed timeline. With immediate benefits to Todmorden.

Existing routes are going to be bursting come next May with the Bolton corridor expecting 17% less capacity. I am afraid the Todmorden curve needs to wait its turn. Celebrate its reinstatement as an achievement.

A Civil Rail Engineer (in this case Network Rail) when offered money to build additional infrastructure should not ask where the trains are going to come from but take the money and run and build it.

Engineers from British Rail would have partied all week on hearing they had £8 million to spend on a curve and would not have even questioned rolling stock. Especially as this £8 million hasn't required them to sell potentially useful operational land.

I always have time to read your postings, but you have answered this from the standpoint of a civil engineer.

Once again, I feel that I must state that the Todmorden Chord was but one part of the successful project that was put forward to reinvigorate the area of East Lancashire. I am sure that if the bid submission had included the proviso that there was no available rolling stock to run on the newly constructed Todmorden Chord once it was completed, a different project that was in the same bid process may have been the successful one and there would be no improvement works in the area of the Weavers Triangle nor would the Todmorden Chord have been constructed.

Those responsible for the award of the bid monies to the current joint project may well be making askance of the bid committee who submitted the now successful bid.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Paul, i would agree with you if the delay was a Year or more but for 6 months i do not

( thank you for the compliment in your disagreement :P )
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I always have time to read your postings, but you have answered this from the standpoint of a civil engineer.

Civil Engineer by nature. It is how am being trained :P