TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

[scarby]

They've cancelled another one! The 15.35 arrival to scarborough, despite "only" being 24 down at Malton.

This is just dreadful.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

So your answer to the problem is to run one 6 car express from leeds to victoria? Ans one stopper (which cant be 6 cars yet) between leeds and piccadilly...

Bit drastic! Taking the newcastle airport out alone should do enough if we really want an emergency timetable.

I've taken the Leeds to Southport service into consideration too which would give the line between Leeds and Mirfield three trains an hour, from there you see which services could be extended to Huddersfield.

Either way six train an hour along TPE North just isn't working so cutting some services back would be one way to ensure that those destinations can still be served, its just the case of hollowing out the core section of the route and rebuild the timetable from scratch, even if it means splitting services in Leeds, York and Manchester and create interchange hubs there for onward connections - it seems the only way to go.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They've cancelled another one! The 15.35 arrival to scarborough, despite "only" being 24 down at Malton.

This is just dreadful.

I was just coming on to say this evenings peak doesn't look as bad...

 

[notlob.divad]

The problem with the chord is delays are now knocking on through all 3 Manchester stations. In the past if either Victoria or the Castlefield corridor got bunged up, the other was usually alright. Now problems with one impact upon the other.

In my opinion it would be much better to focus the TPE services through Victoria and let Northern run the cross Manchester Traffic.

For now, they should cut the newcastle-airport service, time the other 3 expresses at 20 min intervals instead of 15. Same as WCML London<>Manchester and thus give more breathing space for the skip stoppers.

 

[mike57]

I was just coming on to say this evenings peak doesn't look as bad...

And the current York Scarborough (17:30 arr) is 20 mins late and the next one doesn't look much better, today's excuse is shortage of drivers, but lateness has accrued through the journey.

 

[tbtc]

Dumb question here... but... is there anything specific to the Scarborough service that makes it so unreliable?

We've not seen the same reporting of Hull/ Middlesbrough/ Newcastle services being caped part-way along the route - is this because there's more attention on Scarborough (with it being half term), something about Scarborough train-crew, the possibility that we have more posters "local" to that line, a problem with insufficient layover time specific to Scarborough or is there a conflicting service further west that seems to delay the Scarborough services more than other trains?

For example, the normal pattern looks like an eastbound service arriving at xx:33 and depart westbound at xx:46... and given the single track bit at Malton that seems to make any delay over over ten minutes worth terminating short instead?

The Middlesbrough services have from xx:37 to xx:57 - is the extra seven minutes layover sufficient to make that service more resilient or are equal numbers of Teesside services being disrupted (but we are discussing the Scarborough ones more as they are more high profile whilst the schools are off and people wanting the seaside)? I've seen some Middlesbrough services terminate short at Thornaby but haven't paid sufficient attention to know if this is commonplace or just one-off.

The lopsided timetable means Newcastle gets arrivals at xx:04 and xx:25, with departures at xx:15 and xx:52 - I'd hope that the northbound xx:04 is waiting until xx:52 to head south (rather than try to turn around a "two hundred mile" journey in just ten minutes)?

In which case, is this the case that Scarborough has the biggest problems as it has the shortest layover (with Middlesbrough next-worst, and Newcastle trains having over half an hour)?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

You wouldn't really need P15/16 if you didn't have the Ordsall Chord. In all likelihood the money would have just been put towards Crossrail 2 or something instead.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Ordsall Chord, and it should ultimately make the main approaches to Piccadilly work a lot better. It was always going to take some time to bed in, but if that was the only thing going wrong at the moment then I think the number of unhappy people would be much much smaller than now. Even combining it with impossibly tight turnarounds to support an expanded service on the cheap could probably have been managed. The problem is that the issues from these changes are being turned into a nightmare by a more general timetable that can't be staffed and contains moves which are literally impossible.

That’s a very interesting statement which made me prick up my ears. Is there a specific example you can elaborate to us?

 

[Crossover]

A problem with Ordsall Chord must be the flat junction, particularly at Deansgate. I was watching Traksy the other day and there was one hell of a queue waiting to use that junction Manchester bound!

 

[mike57]

Dumb question here... but... is there anything specific to the Scarborough service that makes it so unreliable?

We've not seen the same reporting of Hull/ Middlesbrough/ Newcastle services being caped part-way along the route - is this because there's more attention on Scarborough (with it being half term), something about Scarborough train-crew, the possibility that we have more posters "local" to that line, a problem with insufficient layover time specific to Scarborough or is there a conflicting service further west that seems to delay the Scarborough services more than other trains?

For example, the normal pattern looks like an eastbound service arriving at xx:33 and depart westbound at xx:46... and given the single track bit at Malton that seems to make any delay over over ten minutes worth terminating short instead?

The Middlesbrough services have from xx:37 to xx:57 - is the extra seven minutes layover sufficient to make that service more resilient or are equal numbers of Teesside services being disrupted (but we are discussing the Scarborough ones more as they are more high profile whilst the schools are off and people wanting the seaside)? I've seen some Middlesbrough services terminate short at Thornaby but haven't paid sufficient attention to know if this is commonplace or just one-off.

The lopsided timetable means Newcastle gets arrivals at xx:04 and xx:25, with departures at xx:15 and xx:52 - I'd hope that the northbound xx:04 is waiting until xx:52 to head south (rather than try to turn around a "two hundred mile" journey in just ten minutes)?

In which case, is this the case that Scarborough has the biggest problems as it has the shortest layover (with Middlesbrough next-worst, and Newcastle trains having over half an hour)?

I think there are a number of problems which makes the Scarborough service unreliable and more prone to complaints when it goes wrong.

1. Short layover coupled with single Malton platform.
2. Awkward path at York, you have to use platforms 3, 4 or 5 (or 2 but thats a bay platform)
3. The path between Manchester and Leeds, over the last two weeks the delays seem to accumulate rather than 1 significant delay
4. TPE are the main operator, with about 18 departures and arrivals a day, only other operator is Northern to Hull, If you are traveling anywhere other than Bridlington and Hull then TPE is the only choice, therefore when they mess up you don't have any other options.
5. Seamer/Scarborough is the main destination, with 1.1 million passengers/year, Malton is 300,000 so any short working to Malton is going to leave most of the passengers fuming at Malton, unlike some lines where the passengers drift off through the journey leaving a nearly empty train at the terminus.
6. Service is hourly, so one cancellation makes a big hole and results in overcrowding. Earlier in the week there were two cancellations together leaving a 3 hour wait

In the old timetable there was 10 mins between trains at Malton, thats reduced to 3 minutes, whoever 'planned' that should fired on the spot.
Again layover was 23 minutes before, thats reduced to 11 minutes.

I took a chance on the train today, as usual outward journey at 6.47 ex Seamer was fine, return journey less so, nearly 25 mins late, but at least I made connection home at Seamer without having to ring my wife to rescue me at Seamer. I also noted that the train out this morning, which is one of the main commuter services to York was significantly less busy than earlier in the week, local people are voting with their feet, and finding other ways to travel, and of course once you make alternative arrangements you get in the routine. I think TPE have really blown it on this route and I predict much lower passenger numbers this year as a result.

Edit: 3rd cancellation of the day, 19:33 arrival at Scarborough turned at Malton 33 late. Just looked on RTT and the delays occurred steadily during the journey, not just one incident.

 

[ajdunlop]

Is there somewhere to put the TransPennines at Victoria during the Liverpool Lime Street blockade? Will it be one of the bay platforms? What happens when one of these is delayed and 2 of them are hanging around for the return journeys, especially when Northern have umpteen units hanging around waiting for Drivers and Guards?

 

[CC 72100]

A problem with Ordsall Chord must be the flat junction, particularly at Deansgate. I was watching Traksy the other day and there was one hell of a queue waiting to use that junction Manchester bound!

Deansgate - Oxford Road - Picc 13/14 was always a bit of a bottleneck in the old timetable, now with TPE trains going on a tour of Manchester and competing with Metrolink by adding the chord and a stop at Vic into the equation, is it actually a surprise that the timetable is suffering?

Picc 13/14 used to be a real performance challenge; why you'd want to send more trains through those platforms I have no idea.

 

[notlob.divad]

Is there somewhere to put the TransPennines at Victoria during the Liverpool Lime Street blockade? Will it be one of the bay platforms? What happens when one of these is delayed and 2 of them are hanging around for the return journeys, especially when Northern have umpteen units hanging around waiting for Drivers and Guards?

Real time trains has the scarboroughs using the bay platform 2 with Newcastle's laying over in the western reversal siding

 

[1D53]

Was on 9M09, which was running 100% RT all the way from Durham to York. Lost 2 minutes at Church Fenton due to 29L 2E09 and a further 2 minutes at Micklefield due to 10L 1U03. So 4 minutes late into Leeds, then was held for another few minutes to exit the station from 16b.
4L into Manchester, but I can't help but feel that Northern's lateness and poor performance is impacting on TPE across the core.

Northern would probably say the same about TPE. Interestingly in your example above 1U03 was only late by virtue it was held for 2 TPE services at Leeds...

 

[Camden]

Picc 13/14 used to be a real performance challenge; why you'd want to send more trains through those platforms I have no idea.

For the same reason you might want to lobby for the Ordsall Chord built. To add pressure to an already pressured system, to orchestrate the circumstances for a political - and outwardly logical looking - case for further spend on even more expensive infrastructure to accommodate that, delivering the infrastructure you really want (but currently have no real case for).

 

[pdq]

Northern would probably say the same about TPE.

They did. On May 21st a Northern spokesperson was on Radio Leeds saying that Northern had had to make their timetable fit around TPE - clearly implying they were playing second fiddle.

 

[Chester1]

Deansgate - Oxford Road - Picc 13/14 was always a bit of a bottleneck in the old timetable, now with TPE trains going on a tour of Manchester and competing with Metrolink by adding the chord and a stop at Vic into the equation, is it actually a surprise that the timetable is suffering?

Picc 13/14 used to be a real performance challenge; why you'd want to send more trains through those platforms I have no idea.

For the same reason you might want to lobby for the Ordsall Chord built. To add pressure to an already pressured system, to orchestrate the circumstances for a political - and outwardly logical looking - case for further spend on even more expensive infrastructure to accommodate that, delivering the infrastructure you really want (but currently have no real case for).

Don't forget that the Castlefield corridor was resignalled in preparation for chord services starting so its not comparing like for like. I am glad they built the chord because now it has been built it is a sunk cost and improves the business case for futher work in the area. Castlefield Junction will have to stay a flat junction but there is enough space to rebuild it to increase the approach from the CLC which is just 20mph which is considerably slower than from the lines from Chat Moss and the Chord. I think @Joseph_Locke has mentioned costed plans to build a flyover or fly under at Ordsall Lane. There really should be capacity for 2tph TPE between Victoria and the Airport, it should be a priority when deciding what can be run reliably in central Manchester.

 

[Camden]

Basically just confirming everything I just said there. Throw in the needless routing of two trains from Yorkshire from Victoria to Manchester Airport, rather than sending them westward out of Manchester where they would be serving more people, be more use and cause less issue, and you could probably work for the GMCA!

I've no objection to case building, but a lot of money is being blown on projects which in reality have very poor value due to lack of benefits realisation and cost of additional spend they then require, while projects that have genuine merit on their own are snubbed or receive only lukewarm watered down backing. I assume by your name the Wrexham re-"double" will ring a bell, as might a few other things.

 

[3270]

Dumb question here... but... is there anything specific to the Scarborough service that makes it so unreliable?

We've not seen the same reporting of Hull/ Middlesbrough/ Newcastle services being caped part-way along the route - is this because there's more attention on Scarborough (with it being half term), something about Scarborough train-crew, the possibility that we have more posters "local" to that line, a problem with insufficient layover time specific to Scarborough or is there a conflicting service further west that seems to delay the Scarborough services more than other trains?

For example, the normal pattern looks like an eastbound service arriving at xx:33 and depart westbound at xx:46... and given the single track bit at Malton that seems to make any delay over over ten minutes worth terminating short instead?

The Middlesbrough services have from xx:37 to xx:57 - is the extra seven minutes layover sufficient to make that service more resilient or are equal numbers of Teesside services being disrupted (but we are discussing the Scarborough ones more as they are more high profile whilst the schools are off and people wanting the seaside)? I've seen some Middlesbrough services terminate short at Thornaby but haven't paid sufficient attention to know if this is commonplace or just one-off.

The lopsided timetable means Newcastle gets arrivals at xx:04 and xx:25, with departures at xx:15 and xx:52 - I'd hope that the northbound xx:04 is waiting until xx:52 to head south (rather than try to turn around a "two hundred mile" journey in just ten minutes)?

In which case, is this the case that Scarborough has the biggest problems as it has the shortest layover (with Middlesbrough next-worst, and Newcastle trains having over half an hour)?

At Newcastle the arrivals from Liverpool go back to Liverpool and the arrivals from the Airport (typically xx:04 or xx:07) go back to the Airport (typically at xx:15 or xx:17/xx:18) so the Airport trains have turnrounds that are far too short e.g. the 10:07 arrival heading back south at 10:15. Plenty of Airport services have been turned around at Darlington and even a few at Durham. The Liverpools actually depart Newcastle at xx:03 (give or take minute) except the 14:52 which departs early and runs slow line south of Northallerton because of the off-pattern 15:03 Newcastle - Reading. So the Liverpools have decent 35+ minute layovers. Plenty of Middlesbroughs have been turned round at Northallerton (denying Yarm it's only service) and Thornaby.

 

[Camden]

It could almost lead you to think that there might possibly be more merit in running 4 tph Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria and Leeds, enabling an even timetable, rather than a) being obsessed with sending long distance trains to Manchester Airport to the detriment of all else and b) having a supposedly intercity route terminate in small to medium sized towns rather than major cities (towns which would be better and more appropriately served by lower cost connector services that can get them to more frequent and reliable longer distance services at the nearest major location)...

 

[47802]

Basically just confirming everything I just said there. Throw in the needless routing of two trains from Yorkshire from Victoria to Manchester Airport, rather than sending them westward out of Manchester where they would be serving more people, be more use and cause less issue, and you could probably work for the GMCA!

I've no objection to case building, but a lot of money is being blown on projects which in reality have very poor value due to lack of benefits realisation and cost of additional spend they then require, while projects that have genuine merit on their own are snubbed or receive only lukewarm watered down backing. I assume by your name the Wrexham re-"double" will ring a bell, as might a few other things.

Needless routing I don't think so, many people in Yorkshire and the North West including myself would like through trains to Manchester Airport from TPE and Northern and I suspect the business case of both is substancially built around this. If there are fundamental issues with the timetable then clearly they will have to be looked at, if there are fundamental issues with the capacity of the Infrastructure particularly through Oxford Road and Piccadilly then they will have to be looked at as well. Where westward would they be serving more people? I'm sure far more people from Yorkshire use the Airport trains than the Liverpool Trains including myself.

 

[scarby]

More high-quality service for Scarborough passengers yesterday evening, with the 1935 arrival terminated at Malton despite being just 19 down, and therefore the 1946 departure from Scarborough cancelled. Then the last arrival of the day, due in at 2335, staggered in at 0018, 43 minutes late.

 

[notlob.divad]

Needless routing I don't think so, many people in Yorkshire and the North West including myself would like through trains to Manchester Airport from TPE and Northern and I suspect the business case of both is substancially built around this. If there are fundamental issues with the timetable then clearly they will have to be looked at, if there are fundamental issues with the capacity of the Infrastructure particularly through Oxford Road and Piccadilly then they will have to be looked at as well. Where westward would they be serving more people? I'm sure far more people from Yorkshire use the Airport trains than the Liverpool Trains including myself.

I think the need for long distance airport through trains is overrated. I think the reason they may be used more than the Liverpool train is that until recently they served Piccadilly which is (for some obscure Manchester reason) where people seem to want to go.

People talk about not wanting to change trains with big cases and kids, but then the cost of long distance train travel for a full family vs the parking charges in Jet Park must be prohibitively expensive. Train travel to airports is the domain of single (often regular) travellers / international visitors. Even the proverbial high value business travellers are more often than not going to be in a taxi / have an airport parking pass.

As for where TPE would go to the West. Chester via Warrington and and Blackpool via Bolton and Preston seem more intercity destinations than ferrying 20 through passengers to Manchester Airport.

 

[geoffk]

I think there are a number of problems which makes the Scarborough service unreliable and more prone to complaints when it goes wrong.

1. Short layover coupled with single Malton platform.
2. Awkward path at York, you have to use platforms 3, 4 or 5 (or 2 but thats a bay platform)
3. The path between Manchester and Leeds, over the last two weeks the delays seem to accumulate rather than 1 significant delay
4. TPE are the main operator, with about 18 departures and arrivals a day, only other operator is Northern to Hull, If you are traveling anywhere other than Bridlington and Hull then TPE is the only choice, therefore when they mess up you don't have any other options.
5. Seamer/Scarborough is the main destination, with 1.1 million passengers/year, Malton is 300,000 so any short working to Malton is going to leave most of the passengers fuming at Malton, unlike some lines where the passengers drift off through the journey leaving a nearly empty train at the terminus.
6. Service is hourly, so one cancellation makes a big hole and results in overcrowding. Earlier in the week there were two cancellations together leaving a 3 hour wait

In the old timetable there was 10 mins between trains at Malton, thats reduced to 3 minutes, whoever 'planned' that should fired on the spot.
Again layover was 23 minutes before, thats reduced to 11 minutes.

And the Scarborough train has to follow then overtake the Manchester Picc - Leeds semi-fast in both directions; at Dewsbury eastbound and at Mirfield/Heaton Lodge westbound.

 

[Camden]

Is it the case they are used more than the Liverpool trains? Neither logic nor the figures would seem to back that up. Around twice the number of passengers are carried between Manchester and Liverpool than between Leeds and Manchester. Bit silly to ask where has more people to serve westward than Manchester Airport - is Liverpool and its wider region invisible? There's an additional 3 million people right there.

The desire for a "direct train to Manchester Airport please" from AN Other Small Town in Outer Othershire has simply become fetishised, to the point where the tail is wagging the dog. In its place you could have a high quality, easily accessible, ultra reliable high frequency service which not only connects Manchester Airport to the city centre every few minutes but also the places along its route. Paired with reliable, long distance intercity services that make sense.

Instead billions are being blown on HS2 which will also have a Manchester Airport stop. Will the madness even end there? I doubt it.

 

[47802]

Is it the case they are used more than the Liverpool trains? Neither logic nor the figures would seem to back that up. Around twice the number of passengers are carried between Manchester and Liverpool than between Leeds and Manchester. Bit silly to ask where has more people to serve westward than Manchester Airport - is Liverpool and its wider region invisible? There's an additional 3 million people right there.

The desire for a "direct train to Manchester Airport please" from AN Other Small Town in Outer Othershire has simply become fetishised, to the point where the tail is wagging the dog. In its place you could have a high quality, easily accessible, ultra reliable high frequency service which not only connects Manchester Airport to the city centre every few minutes but also the places along its route. Paired with reliable, long distance intercity services that make sense.

Instead billions are being blown on HS2 which will also have a Manchester Airport stop. Will the madness even end there? I doubt it.

Your point is what exactly? that is significant traffic between Manchester and Liverpool but that hardly means we should have more through trains to Liverpool from Yorkshire and the North East, off the top my head which while may not be scientific I can think of plenty of people from Yorkshire who use the train to Manchester and Manchester Airport and no one who uses the train to Liverpool. Liverpool has 2 through trains from TPE per hour that seems quite reasonable to me along with 2 to the Airport. Other suggestions of Serving Preston and Blackpool well Yorkshire is already largely served by Northern Services to Blackpool. a through service to Chester might be of some benefit but then Northern will to some degree be taking on that role with a through Calder Valley service to Chester.

I suspect a lot of TPE customers want a through service to the Airport, and the new service also offers an interchange at both Victoria and Piccadilly for other routes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have uses the direct train to the airport at all hours of the day many times and never ever seen it as little as 20 people on a train.

On the flip side, i would happily change....

 

[323235]

2 TransPennine train in a row from Victoria to the Airport were cancelled today - one at Victoria and one at Piccadilly. Both were running 15 minutes late.

 

[Altfish]

Sorry, I'm a little late to this thread but just been checking my TPE journey to Lockerbie from Manchester.
There seems to be a 3 hour gap of northbound trains stopping at Lockerbie. The 0910 from the airport calls at 1137 but then the 1010 and the 1059 from the Airport do not stop at Lockerbie. The next stopper is the 1210.
Southbound, everything seems to stop.
On Saturdays the 1059 does call at Lockerbie.

There doesn't even seem to be any connecting services from Carlisle.

 

[notlob.divad]

Sorry, I'm a little late to this thread but just been checking my TPE journey to Lockerbie from Manchester.
There seems to be a 3 hour gap of northbound trains stopping at Lockerbie. The 0910 from the airport calls at 1137 but then the 1010 and the 1059 from the Airport do not stop at Lockerbie. The next stopper is the 1210.
Southbound, everything seems to stop.
On Saturdays the 1059 does call at Lockerbie.

There doesn't even seem to be any connecting services from Carlisle.

Is this a gap where an ex Liverpool train is supposed to go, when they have the rolling stock to do so?

 

[Altfish]

Is this a gap where an ex Liverpool train is supposed to go, when they have the rolling stock to do so?

I don't think so, because the trains are running but just not stopping at Lockerbie.
Not sure if there is a Virgin train close behind and a stop would incur delays to that.