Thank you very much for that post furlong. As I read it the TSA makes it clear that cancellation of a single train - in itself - does not give the passenger carte blanche to travel on another TOC's train.
I don't think any reasonable person would go that far.CONCLUSION:
Our railway systems and in particular our train ticketing systems are completely dysfunctional and hopeless and the regulations are totally beyond the understanding of the average passenger.
I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. If your booked train is cancelled, talk to station staff or the guard on the next train that will get you where you need to get. Really not that difficult.CONCLUSION:
Our railway systems and in particular our train ticketing systems are completely dysfunctional and hopeless and the regulations are totally beyond the understanding of the average passenger.
Then you were entitled to a full refund of that ticket.Except that not everyone knows to do that! I paid a fortune for a ticket I needn't have bought a few years ago. It turns out my ticket would have been valid. Note that the ticket office simply told me to buy a new ticket!!
What should (but unfortunately doesn't always) happen is to give the passenger the benefit of the doubt, allow travel, and sort it out afterwards. With the notable exception of evening peak travel at Paddington, I honestly believe that is exactly what happens in the vast majority of cases.Furthermore, sometimes ticket offices don't know the answer to ticketing questions - a senior person in charge at one ticket office had to ring up for help and even then wasn't sure that I could travel on the train I wanted to with my ticket!!
The average person doesn't understand most systems. And there's no reason why they should have to - that is what front-line customer service staff are there for.So yes, I do believe I am right, the system is broken. The average person doesn't understand the system. And not even all staff understand the system.
Complex and broken are not the same thing.The system is too too complicate. It really is broken.
History has shown that tighter regulation results in higher prices and poorer service overall. Where an industry is tightly regulated there is little incentive to innovate. What's needed is an effective ombudsman rather than a regulator.Ultimately it is confusing your customers out of their money and ought to be more tightly regulated.
History has shown that tighter regulation results in higher prices and poorer service overall. Where an industry is tightly regulated there is little incentive to innovate. What's needed is an effective ombudsman rather than a regulator.
I should have said an effective ombudsman rather than an overly active regulator. There is, of course, a need for some regulation to make rules which prevent overtly unfair practices.That's one view, there are a lot of others.
I agree it's not always easy, but if you are turning up a reasonable length of time (say 10 minutes) before your booked train is due to depart, and find that it has been cancelled there aren't many stations where the next train will be running so close behind as to make it impossible to find someone who has authority to give you permission to travel before it departs.Back to the matter in hand - the advice to "ask the train manager or guard before boarding" can be easier said than done. It cannot be assumed that he or she will emerge from the rear of the train, it could be anywhere along the length of it, and if you wait at the wrong end and have luggage, in a dwell time of a minute or so you hardly have time to even spot the TM, let alone get yourself close enough to ask the question.
I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. If your booked train is cancelled, talk to station staff or the guard on the next train that will get you where you need to get. Really not that difficult.
In that case, board - nobody's going to check your ticket on board.Very difficult indeed if the station is unstaffed and the next train, when/if it comes, is DOO !
In that case, board - nobody's going to check your ticket on board.
Naturally, there are edge cases - and I'm pretty sure that people who found themselves at an unstaffed station would board the next service regardless of if there was a guard present or not.Indeed, and that is exactly what I did, but you said it was "not that difficult" to do something which, in fact, is sometimes impossible and I suspect most passengers would have no idea which trains were DOO.
If there is a guard they shouldn't dispatch while there is someone trying to catch their attention. And if the guard waves them on from the other end of the train - well, there's your permission to board!Edit: The implication, if I understood you correctly, was that the passeger should ask the 'guard' beferor boarding - once you have boarded and the train is on the move it would be a bit late !
Naturally, there are edge cases - and I'm pretty sure that people who found themselves at an unstaffed station would board the next service regardless of if there was a guard present or not.
Which is why I've been trying to find something in the rules that makes that an okay thing to do!I agree but, as others have said, to the 'normal' passenger that also seems like a natural thing to do at a staffed station as well .... which takes us round to the beginning of the thread again
The difficult part is figuring out how you fix it, and I have yet to hear any proposal that would unquestionably make the system better, for everyone. Until we have that spark of genius, you can moan all you want, we are pretty much stuck with what we have.
You will never find a solution to any problem which would unquestionably make a system better for 100% of the people who interact with it. What is often posssible is making things better for the majority whilst minimising the negative impact on the minority. To achieve that, though, involves (i) discussion of options (ii) acceptance that some people must be 'losers' to achieve the gains for the majority.
On this forum (i) is usually derailed straight away by those who state bluntly that any suggestions incorporating ideas from other railway operators "won't work here". This is then followed by the usual suspects saying there must be no losers - far better, in their eyes it would seem, to keep a (broken) system which already makes 'losers' of many people than upset a few people currently making 'cheap' journeys by exploiting anomalies/loopholes.
This is why this forum needs a like button
I see where you're coming from, but saying that something is broken implies that there was a time when it wasn't. When was that for UK rail ticketing? Certainly not in the re-privatised era, and I get the impression that it didn't work for BR. Big four days?I am gonna drop a bomb here. I will just say that in my opinion, I agree with suzanneparis that the system is broken, pretty much. The incredible complexity is just part of the problem. That is the easy part.
I see where you're coming from, but saying that something is broken implies that there was a time when it wasn't. When was that for UK rail ticketing? Certainly not in the re-privatised era, and I get the impression that it didn't work for BR. Big four days?
That's one view, there are a lot of others.
I see where you're coming from, but saying that something is broken implies that there was a time when it wasn't. When was that for UK rail ticketing? Certainly not in the re-privatised era, and I get the impression that it didn't work for BR. Big four days?
When the airline industry was regulated there could be no EasyJet - and they make a point of saying that they are the lowest cost, most punctual airline in Europe.Quite. Not everyone wants commercial innovation. Many want a quality, understated, punctual and reliable railway at a reasonable price. Nobody would ever call SBB innovative, but it is very popular both within Switzerland and outside it.