Travelling first class on a standard ticket

[Goatboy]

How about an idealogical one? The standard passengers literally crammed in to standing, treated like cattle, while the moneyed elite sit comfortably behind their sound-proof door drinking complementary drinks. Remember not everyone has the money for first class, which is probably why it is always empty on every train I ever see (I don't see many commuter trains).

There is a credible argument of 'Does XC really have the capacity to offer an entire coach of First Class on trains which are so short' but it isn't one that means you can take matters into your own hands and sit there because you feel you are better than everyone else who stands.

I am far from the 'moneyed elite' but I often travel First Class - I've specifically booked First Class for a trip later in the year because I've a feeling the train in question will be full and standing and I'd like a seat. I've paid more for that comfort. Something you are also more than entitled to do if you want better travelling conditions.

 

[maniacmartin]

Depends what occupy means. If walking through (which surely cannot be illegal) is the only way to get to second class and the volume of people - which on XC often makes the tube seem comfortable - prevents you from travelling further, as it has to me on more than one occasion when on XC, then I reckon I have no choice and I would be delighted to let the Cross Country 'employee' try to show me to my accomodation!

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

(my bold)

 

[VauxhallandI]

Yes it even includes any vestibule even if it is completely separate to the seating area by closed doors on both sides.

God forbid anyone in first had to walk past a second class citizen!

 

[LateThanNever]

Originally Posted by Railway Byelaws
19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

(my bold)
Very interesting. So presumably as I was physically prevented from moving to second class and I did not have 'mens rea' I'd not be guilty or if it is strict liability it depends what time it is reasonable to be there without 'remaining'? Or perhaps I should pull the communication cord - as was - to show that I couldn't possibly remain in first class?? Unless of course the first class 'notice' applies only to the seats?

 

[bb21]

Very interesting. So presumably as I was physically prevented from moving to second class and I did not have 'mens rea' I'd not be guilty or if it is strict liability it depends what time it is reasonable to be there without 'remaining'? Or perhaps I should pull the communication cord - as was - to show that I couldn't possibly remain in first class?? Unless of course the first class 'notice' applies only to the seats?

Look at this sensibly. If there indeed is no room to stand and rammed completely full in Standard Class then I doubt anyone would have a major issue if you stand somewhere as close to Standard as possible even if that means encroaching on the First Class area slightly. Even if the TM would not allow it, the HSE probably wouldn't be very happy about the situation.

A train being standing room only (not necessarily full) in Standard and then one goes into First Class accommodation on his own accord is a quite different matter.

 

[John @ home]

If walking through (which surely cannot be illegal) is the only way to get to second class and the volume of people - which on XC often makes the tube seem comfortable - prevents you from travelling further, as it has to me on more than one occasion when on XC, then I reckon I have no choice

This may be a credible argument on some TPE trains, where First Class accommodation is in the centre of a carriage and a passenger in the rest of the train has to pass through First Class accommodation to get to the accessible toilet and baby change facilities.

In my opinion, it is not a credible argument on a XC Voyager where the First Class coach has only one passenger entrance. On boarding the train by that entrance, a passenger needs to turn in one direction to access First Class accommodation and to turn in the opposite direction for all Standard accommodation.

 

[cjp]

Look at this sensibly. If there indeed is no room to stand and rammed completely full in Standard Class then I doubt anyone would have a major issue if you stand somewhere as close to Standard as possible even if that means encroaching on the First Class area slightly. Even if the TM would not allow it, the HSE probably wouldn't be very happy about the situation.

A train being standing room only (not necessarily full) in Standard and then one goes into First Class accommodation on his own accord is a quite different matter.

How about first class seats having call buttons for attendants (shades of sleepers and airlines) so that said attendant/guard type can be summoned to evict any none first class bounders?

In fairness to East Coast they do this already without a button (and apologise for my being disturbed)

 

[LateThanNever]

Look at this sensibly. If there indeed is no room to stand and rammed completely full in Standard Class then I doubt anyone would have a major issue if you stand somewhere as close to Standard as possible even if that means encroaching on the First Class area slightly. Even if the TM would not allow it, the HSE probably wouldn't be very happy about the situation.

A train being standing room only (not necessarily full) in Standard and then one goes into First Class accommodation on his own accord is a quite different matter.

I agree broadly but the stupid part is on these trains I am talking about it was physically impossible to move unless the outside doors were open but nonetheless the law appears to allow prosecutions (when animals would not legally have to put up with similar conditions) - under strict liability. I know that having travelled for hours on a diverted Edinburgh - Birmingham, which got me no further, although it was labelled Plymouth on its destination and having to wait 4 hours before we could get on another train I was, along with many others, in First Class. Tickets were never checked and anyone trying to take issue with any tickets would have been laughed at I'm sure. But legally we were wrong. The law is an ass!

 

[Flamingo]

Originally Posted by Railway Byelaws
19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

(my bold)
Very interesting. So presumably as I was physically prevented from moving to second class and I did not have 'mens rea' I'd not be guilty or if it is strict liability it depends what time it is reasonable to be there without 'remaining'? Or perhaps I should pull the communication cord - as was - to show that I couldn't possibly remain in first class?? Unless of course the first class 'notice' applies only to the seats?

I encounter this argument frequently on the Pad-Rdg trains. It's a crock of ****. When the option is move or a penalty fare, they manage to move just fine

 

[34D]

I have a five hour first class journey booked for later this week. Does that make me moneyed elite/landed gentry?

 

[Flamingo]

I have a five hour first class journey booked for later this week. Does that make me moneyed elite/landed gentry?

But you are moneyed elite/landed gentry

This just means you have style and taste as well!

 

[ainsworth74]

(when animals would not legally have to put up with similar conditions)

You do not have to get on the train. The animals do not have the same choice.

 

[Deerfold]

You do not have to get on the train. The animals do not have the same choice.

Nor do they have the choice of First Class.

 

[fowler9]

I remember years ago on a train from Leeds to Liverpool, probably late 80's, the standard class section of the train was fit to burst. The guard came around and let our party go and take one of the empty compartments in the first class carriage free of charge. Very generous of him I thought. Seems to happen less these days but that could be my rose tinted specs.

 

[jon0844]

First class can be declassified at times, but in most cases - as Flamingo will tell you - standard class isn't always THAT full.

 

[Tetchytyke]

IIRC the vestibules on the Voyagers are not considered to be part of First Class, so standing in the vestibule should be ok. Standing within the carriage, on the other hand, is not.

On most LHCS trains the vestibule is considered to be part of First Class. The reason is bloody obvious: it stops people jumping out of the seat when the ticket inspector comes down.

 

[Flamingo]

FGW HST's now have signs in the vestibules reminding passengers this is 1st class and they are liable for a 1st class ticket if there, and a sign alongside the buffet saying everywhere past here is 1st class.

One interesting thing is at the moment, on West Country HST's from Paddington using platform 7 or 8 at Reading. 1st Class is not on the platform, and any I have worked I have not had a single person standing in the vestibules leaving London, everybody has managed to walk down the platform before boarding or push their way past the people at the bar, unprompted. Strange that!

 

[orpine]

Well it happened again this weekend and folks here will be happy to know that followed the rules and slummed it with the other 15-20 people crammed into just the disabled vestibule, along with their luggage.

To the folks who say they're not the "Moneyed elite" but travel first class - I'm sure you're not. I suspect there are two types of first class non-business travelers:
- Moneyed elite - see also MP's getting it on expenses.
- Railway buffs who enjoy the journey and view it as a treat (the folks in this forum).

The fact that less than 2% of passengers seem to fall into those categories, at least on the XC services I've been on recently, does make me question the point of having them.

and sit there because you feel you are better than everyone else who stands.

I don't feel I'm better than everyone else who stands. I think they should be seated in the spare seats too.

 

[bb21]

The fact that less than 2% of passengers seem to fall into those categories, at least on the XC services I've been on recently, does make me question the point of having them.

2% is probably underestimating things a bit. I have been on plenty of services where First is busier than Standard. This morning's ex-Glasgow Central East Coast service is one example.

Part of the reason XC First Class don't appear to be very popular is that they are pretty damn expensive for very little extra as compared to Standard. That said, they can be pretty full in the morning peak.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think MPs get first class on expenses do they? Of course they can choose to upgrade if they so wish, as can anyone else.

 

[Tetchytyke]

MPs and civil servants no longer get first class travel on expenses, hence the embarrassing conversation Gideon Osborne had on a Virgin Train at Wilmslow fairly recently.

I don't really understand what the controversy is with this debate. If you want a first class seat, pay for one. If you want a standard class seat, reserve one.

 

[jon0844]

The George Osborne incident was around the time of plebgate wasn't it? The media wanting to find any excuse to pick on MPs and their supposed belief that we are all beneath them - because if one person had used the word pleb, they obviously all did.

And just as the police actually lied, it quickly became apparent that he (or his staff) paid to upgrade to first class. At worst, he (or his staff) might have tried to blag it, but I bet people do that every single day (and I bet it works for some of them).

And, in any case, if standard class was beneath Mr Osborne, why would he have had a standard class ticket in the first place?!

One thing that did come out of it was the sheer hatred of anyone that travels first class, which can only be down to envy or jealousy. Anyone can go first class, and it needn't even cost that much, and for a lot of trains you're not getting much more than a better chance of getting a seat.

And what's the harm in going first class if you need Wi-Fi, a power socket, a decent sized table to work? Or even to have a chance to relax and rest after coming back from a whole day of hard work?

But, ultimately, nobody has the right to just upgrade themselves and not expect to pay simply because they can't find a seat (and it's debatable how often there really aren't any seats anywhere in standard class, given how people like to stand on trains when whole carriages can be near empty further down).

 

[Tetchytyke]

And just as the police actually lied, it quickly became apparent that he (or his staff) paid to upgrade to first class. At worst, he (or his staff) might have tried to blag it, but I bet people do that every single day (and I bet it works for some of them).

His aide definitely attempted to blag it, the old "don't you know who he is, he can't sit in standard class, he's too important, it's a matter of national security" spiel. Osborne only stumped up the cash when told he had to, but his aide tried it on fairly forcefully. The aides do it all the time, it's really part of their job, especially since the ban on first class on expenses came in. They often get away with it. Such a shame they were overheard this time :roll:

FWIW I have no issue with senior national politicians sitting in first class to get some work done, or for the cost to go on expenses.

 

[DeeGee]

I have occasionally travelled first on a weekend. Last time was coming back from the Great North Run.

In my experience, getting a seat is quite tricky anyway on those trains, and as it happened, the 1st Advance ticket was the cheapest available at the time.

I'm doing it again for my birthday next month. It's not very expensive. Not much for free, but confortable.

 

[jon0844]

the old "don't you know who he is, he can't sit in standard class, he's too important, it's a matter of national security" spiel.

I guess what would have been important for those reporting the story is to have checked the facts fully - and established exactly what WAS said.

I don't see any problem with anyone trying to blag something (although if I was going to try and blag a free upgrade, I'd do it from standard class) and the big issue here, as with plebgate, is that the supposed comment(s) could have been embellished by those that figured that given he was a Tory MP, he probably would have said it - and everyone reading would think 'yeah, that sounds like what he'd say'.

I don't believe there's ever a justification for making up or exaggerating a story even to attack your enemy. Not least the damage that it does when you're found out!

(But this is now off topic!).

 

[orpine]

2% is probably underestimating things a bit.

I don't think so on this service. Maths:

First class - 10 people. At least there were when I was naughty and sat there.

Steerage - ~80 seats per carriage, plus 20+ people standing in each (conservative number). 100 * 3 = 300.

10/300 * 100 = 3.3%

So I was close; about 3%.

If you want a standard class seat, reserve one.

Problem there is then I'd have to throw someone out of their seat, and I hate doing that.

Anyone can go first class

No. You're right if you're implying that it's not for the gentry (classism) any more, but the single limiting factor to accessing first class is money and not everyone has that. People on benefits sure can't afford it, folks on minimum wage would struggle to except as a treat (and then they'd have to prioritise it over other treats).
Consider - for the 10 rail journeys I've taken this year that had a first class option, I would have paid ~£400 extra for the privilege. Or an average of £40 per journey. Most people can't afford that.

And what's the harm in going first class if you need Wi-Fi, a power socket, a decent sized table to work?

I get all of that standard class on my Chiltern Service. And the wifi is free!

 

[Butts]

I'm definitely one of "The Moneyed Elite"

When I've paid £10 for a First Class Single from Falkirk to Newcastle , I don't want my complimentary breakfast disturbed by oiks from Standard Class cluttering up the carriage and ruining the ambience.

 

[fowler9]

If you need to work on your way to work you are either crap at your job or your employer isn't paying you enough.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

2% is probably underestimating things a bit. I have been on plenty of services where First is busier than Standard. This morning's ex-Glasgow Central East Coast service is one example.

Indeed.
In fact, I don't see why you should be so hesitant in asserting that figure!

In my own, regular, experience on East Coast, and from discussion with EC staff who have repeatedly been conducting regular headcounts on departure from London, Newcastle and Edinburgh, figures of 50 to 90 in First Class are very common, and on many of the Anglo-Scottish services, they've increased those figures to between 60 to 120.

I posted in June about an EC service leaving Inverness with more passengers in First than in Standard, and in response to a question last month, about the Flying Scotsman leaving Newcastle with 100 in First.

So I was close; about 3%.

Not close to the evidence I have. Admittedly, you are looking at XC and I am looking at EC, but as some, if not most, of the points you are making are of a wider, national, structural issue, then I'd be pleased if you'd put them in a better informed perspective please. That way, your opinions can be evidenced by facts, which always helps an argument!

. . . . the single limiting factor to accessing first class is money and not everyone has that. People on benefits sure can't afford it, folks on minimum wage would struggle to except as a treat (and then they'd have to prioritise it over other treats).

Yes. I fully agree that money (and the lack of it) is a significant factor in our spending choices, and, consequently, in our opportunities and life experiences, and where we have dependents, in their choices, opportunities and experiences.

I can't agree with the 'struggle' argument, though ; what 'struggle' is there in obtaining first class accomodation on a rail journey?
I would expect that any one 'struggling' will have an acute sense of their spending priorities, perhaps a sense which has been fine-tuned over a period of difficulties in fulfilling important needs or aspirations. I'd like to understand better how such a person 'struggling' ("folks on minimum wage", etc) would be prioritising the relatively superficial benefits of the facilities of First Class rail travel over their other needs, interests, aspirations and demands (and those of any dependents). Can you help me to appreciate this aspect of an otherwise well-understood struggle, please?

If you need to work on your way to work you are either crap at your job or your employer isn't paying you enough.

I'm self-employed, so that only leaves one other option to describe me. Could I ask you to do me a favour, please? Could you not tell my clients that I'm 'crap at my job'? It might have an unwanted consequence for me when your well researched analysis gets out!
When that happens, then I'll quickly become both "crap at my job" and "not paying enough".

 

[jon0844]

Maths:

First class - 10 people. At least there were when I was naughty and sat there.

Steerage - ~80 seats per carriage, plus 20+ people standing in each (conservative number). 100 * 3 = 300.

10/300 * 100 = 3.3%

So I was close; about 3%.

You walked through and counted people in every carriage? And there were as many as 20 people standing in a 20-odd metre long carriage? And that was so crowded you had to go into first class?

I presume the fact you could walk through doing a headcount, and get into first class, suggests there was in fact room in standard!