Under utilised class 67s

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43096

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The engine issues were restricted to the locos used on the Enterprise. Running at full whack while stationary is not good.

Otherwise the 201s are great locos.
So it’s a flawed design if it can’t provide HEP without causing engine faults - it was part of the specification for them to work passenger trains daily with HEP working. They’ve been fortunate the Mark 3 generator vans were available for the Enterprise to mitigate the problem.
 

Bertie the bus

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Yep for line speeds above 90mph Light engine running is 75mph maximum, line speeds below 90mph LE running is 60mph maximum.

Didn't know Class 67s were ever allowed to run at 100mph LE at any time. Wow what a wild ride!!
Not entirely true. 68s and 88s can run at max/line speed. I don't know if the same still applies to 67s.
 

AndrewE

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The engine issues were restricted to the locos used on the Enterprise. Running at full whack while stationary is not good. Otherwise the 201s are great locos.
Diesel Gen sets and Stand-by generators seem to work OK, and they run as planned while going nowhere! Are you saying that the 201s ran flat out even if they were only delivering "hotel power?"

So it’s a flawed design if it can’t provide HEP without causing engine faults - it was part of the specification for them to work passenger trains daily with HEP working. They’ve been fortunate the Mark 3 generator vans were available for the Enterprise to mitigate the problem.
Definitely sounds like a flawed design to me...
 

dubscottie

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Are you saying that the 201s ran flat out even if they were only delivering "hotel power?"

Definitely sounds like a flawed design to me...
Yup! Example here -


I believe the reason was because the HEP comes off the main generator rather than there being a separate one for HEP.
 

GrimShady

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So it’s a flawed design if it can’t provide HEP without causing engine faults - it was part of the specification for them to work passenger trains daily with HEP working. They’ve been fortunate the Mark 3 generator vans were available for the Enterprise to mitigate the problem.
Anymore flawed than the list of issues ExRes listed with 67s?

Would 67s have performed the same role better?

Let's not forget 47/7s had a similar gruelling time on the E&G services.

Does anyone know why EWS went for the 67 design instead of a Pax 66?
 

angryskipfan

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The 201 head end power is ac 3 phase 415 v like hst but unlike hst is locked to 50 hz with an aux gen directly connected to engine. So idle speed is very high and corresponds to full engine rated speed. Traction is controlled by a separate alternator rectifier to control speed.
Uk eth practice is 650 to 1000v dc or ac. Output does not require a fixed engine speed so can be much lower than cie 201. Class 68 fir example, eth is tapped off the dc link to the ac traction converters.
 

ac6000cw

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The 201 head end power is ac 3 phase 415 v like hst but unlike hst is locked to 50 hz with an aux gen directly connected to engine. So idle speed is very high and corresponds to full engine rated speed.
Yes, it's derived from US HEP practice, which is 3-phase 480V 60Hz. Most EMD F40PH's had the same arrangement (and the constant full-power engine rpm in HEP mode as a consequence). That said, as far as I know, those didn't suffer from the 201's HEP related reliability problems (just the noise and higher engine wear issues).
 

Cowley

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The 201 head end power is ac 3 phase 415 v like hst but unlike hst is locked to 50 hz with an aux gen directly connected to engine. So idle speed is very high and corresponds to full engine rated speed. Traction is controlled by a separate alternator rectifier to control speed.
Uk eth practice is 650 to 1000v dc or ac. Output does not require a fixed engine speed so can be much lower than cie 201. Class 68 fir example, eth is tapped off the dc link to the ac traction converters.
That’s very interesting. So was the problem with the CIE 201s a lack of airflow around the radiator groups whilst idling at high revs?
 

dubscottie

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That’s very interesting. So was the problem with the CIE 201s a lack of airflow around the radiator groups whilst idling at high revs?
No it was because the engines were being run at full whack constantly. Engine wear and stress went through the roof.

There were only 4 locos that could work the 3 Enterprise sets but 2 more were converted to try and spread out the engine wear.

There are now 9 that can be used.
 
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randyrippley

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Does anyone know why EWS went for the 67 design instead of a Pax 66?
BR blocked high speed CO-CO locomotives for fear of track damage. EWS wanted 125mph capability which meant it had to be BO-BO, GM didn't have a suitable design so they subbed the job to Spain, who did. Also a production run of 30 was too small for them to build
And if anyone is wondering, the fact that the CO-CO 89 got built was an aberration - whatever its better haulage ability over a 91 it would never have been purchased for the ECML
 

craigybagel

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So it’s a flawed design if it can’t provide HEP without causing engine faults - it was part of the specification for them to work passenger trains daily with HEP working. They’ve been fortunate the Mark 3 generator vans were available for the Enterprise to mitigate the problem.
Indeed - the plan was that the 201s would be able to use HEP on the MKIIIs as well and the generator vans could be removed from IÉ altogether. In the end not only did that never happen, but the Enterprise sets which didn't have generator vans as built acquired MKIII generators when the rest of the MKIII fleet was withdrawn. With the lesson learnt the MKIVs were built with generators in the DVTs.

Not entirely true. 68s and 88s can run at max/line speed. I don't know if the same still applies to 67s.
It does indeed, 67s are still not subject to the normal light engine speeds. They also have further dispensation between Shrewsbury and Cardiff only to run at MU speeds when hauling MKIIIs.
 

GrimShady

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It does indeed, 67s are still not subject to the normal light engine speeds. They also have further dispensation between Shrewsbury and Cardiff only to run at MU speeds when hauling MKIIIs.
That's interesting! Where did that dispensation come from?
 

ExRes

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67s had another dispensation brought in shortly after they started revenue service, a 47 and four vans was limited, to 75mph if my memory serves, because of brake force, for example one service we operated to Reading was allowed on the Down Main but not at the 47 max of 95mph, shortly after 67s became available that was rescinded and the max speed raised to that of the vans, as usual this anomaly was brought up by the drivers not by management and only really came to light because of OTMR
 

craigybagel

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It was negotiated between ATW / the Welsh Government and Network Rail, specifically for the North-South loco-hauled express. (I think it only appeared for the 67s, not the earlier 57s.)
It wouldn't have been much use with the 57s anyway as other then the buffet car it was MKIIs in those days and as there were only 4 cars in the formation the set was already limited to 80mph.
 

TheJoyOfSix

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Regarding only needing 4 67s for Mail trains.....

Right up to the end of Mail trains there were 4 needed at St Blazey, 2 at Bristol, 2 at Swansea, 2 at Norwich, 1 at Tyne Yard, 1 at Motherwell, 4 at Willesden. There were then 2 needed for the Sleepers and 1 for the Walsall - Aberdeen fast freight. That's 19 in total just to run the booked work of the time.
 

50039

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2 are booked for UK railtours Euston to Bridgenorth this Saturday - assuming it will be the Belmond pair again?
 

LMS 4F

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I went by Wembley Yard yesterday, Sunday 17th, at about 1115 and again at 1545 and I am sure I saw 4 or possibly 5 Class 67s in at least 4 different liveries. The only number I saw was 024 coupled to another in a brown and cream paint job.
 

sprinterguy

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I went by Wembley Yard yesterday, Sunday 17th, at about 1115 and again at 1545 and I am sure I saw 4 or possibly 5 Class 67s in at least 4 different liveries. The only number I saw was 024 coupled to another in a brown and cream paint job.
I can well believe it; for a small class all delivered in a single squadron scheme they now exhibit quite a range of liveries:

EWS Red & Gold (As delivered, now 67007-009, 011, 016/017, 019/020, 022, 030)
DB Cargo Red (67004/010/013/015/018/028)
Royal Train Burgundy (67005/006)
Wrexham & Shropshire/Chiltern Grey & Silver (Originally 67010, 012-015, now 67012/014)
Arriva Trains Wales Dark Blue (67001-003)
Transport for Wales Light Grey (67025, more to follow)
Pullman Umber & Cream (67021/024)
Diamond Jubilee Silver (67026)
DB Executive Train Silver (67029)
Colas Rail Orange/Yellow (67023/027)

In addition, 67004 and 010 have carried Caledonian Sleeper midnight teal livery but have since been repainted DB red.
 
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Speed43125

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I can well believe it; for a small class all delivered in a single squadron scheme they now exhibit quite a range of liveries:

In addition, 67004 and 010 have carried Caledonian Sleeper midnight teal livery but have since been repainted DB red.
Interesting. I only ever recalling seeing one Serco CS liveried 67. Always seemed to be an EWS 67 or im the final days DB red. Interesting that is.
Your point about the variety is on point too. Lot of variety, though in no small part thanks to them being underutilized.
 

43096

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I can well believe it; for a small class all delivered in a single squadron scheme they now exhibit quite a range of liveries:

EWS Red & Gold (As delivered, now 67007-009, 011, 016/017, 019/020, 022, 030)
DB Cargo Red (67004/010/013/015/018/028)
Royal Train Dark Plum (67005/006)
Wrexham & Shropshire/Chiltern Grey & Silver (Originally 67010, 012-015, now 67012/014)
Arriva Trains Wales Dark Blue (67001-003)
Transport for Wales Light Grey (67025, more to follow)
Pullman Umber & Cream (67021/024)
Diamond Jubilee Silver (67026)
DB Executive Train Silver (67029)
Colas Rail Orange/Yellow (67023/027)

In addition, 67004 and 010 have carried Caledonian Sleeper midnight teal livery but have since been repainted DB red.
I don't think 67018 is actually DB red - think it is "Canadian" red. It certainly isn't in DB standard style.
 

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