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Violent York thug is locked up (but not for very long)

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Bungle73

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That wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have to pay the 30k (give or take) per year to keep them locked up. It would have cost the tax payer 1.5 million to keep them locked up for 50 years at 30k per yer but remember there would be inflation as well.
Congratulations on falling into the trap that befalls so many pro-capital punishment people. Having capital punishment does not save money it COSTS money. And furthermore advocating the killing of someone to "save" money is abhorrent no matter what they have done. And it is NOT a deterrent. You've only got to look at America to see that.

Oh, and I don't know why you even brought CP up, as even if we still had it it would not be used in this case as no one died and no murder was attempted or committed.
 
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Antman

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Congratulations on falling into the trap that befalls so many pro-capital punishment people. Having capital punishment does not save money it COSTS money. And furthermore advocating the killing of someone to "save" money is abhorrent no matter what they have done. And it is NOT a deterrent. You've only got to look at America to see that.

Oh, and I don't know why you even brought CP up, as even if we still had it it would not be used in this case as no one died and no murder was attempted or committed.

Exactly, if we did have capital punishment it could only ever apply to murder.
 

Bungle73

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The sentence was ridiculous. And we wonder why Britain is the laughing stock of the world because we are easy on criminals. In my opinion he should have got 15 years before being considered for release.

Or we Could bring back the death penalty but do it how America does it. Ie 10 years max between sentencing and the execution.

The Criminal Justice system - Justice for Criminals!

The "laughing stock of the world"? Really? I think you'll find that a lot of the countries with low crime rates actually have quite lenient justice systems, particularly for juveniles.
 

RailProfileUK

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Congratulations on falling into the trap that befalls so many pro-capital punishment people. Having capital punishment does not save money it COSTS money. And furthermore advocating the killing of someone to "save" money is abhorrent no matter what they have done. And it is NOT a deterrent. You've only got to look at America to see that.

Oh, and I don't know why you even brought CP up, as even if we still had it it would not be used in this case as no one died and no murder was attempted or committed.

What I am saying is "I" would quite happily hang the type of person this thread is about, I'm not scared to stand up and say it. I have not said I would kill someone to save money I was just pointing out what it would cost to keep someone in prison for 50 years. The justice system in the UK should be a lot tougher and if it meant hanging someone before they went on to commit more cowardly crimes then so be it (think of all the lives you could have saved). How many peoples lives do you think have been ruined by this type of person? And that's ok is it? Should we go and speak to the victims and see how they feel about it? Why would anyone want people on the streets that cause misery to us decent hard working people?

How many people on here have been a victim of crime?
 

radamfi

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Timothy Evans? Derek Bentley?

Just two innocent people that spring to mind, whose lives were lost because of capital punishment...

Right-wing Republicans, for example, say that if innocent people are executed wrongly, that is regrettable, but as long as the vast majority of those executed are guilty, that is a price worth paying.

Arguably, we tolerate innocent people getting killed on the roads in the same way. The 'greater good' is that people can drive around town fast and if people get knocked over and killed because of a mistake by driver or pedestrian or cyclist, that is a price worth paying.

If we were really serious about cutting down deaths, we would have mandatory 20 mph speed limits in town with speed automatically controlled by GPS tracking and comprehensive segregated cycle paths.
 

transmanche

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If we were really serious about cutting down deaths, we would have mandatory 20 mph speed limits in town with speed automatically controlled by GPS tracking and comprehensive segregated cycle paths.
Is that the sound of goalposts shifting I can hear?

Right-wing Republicans, for example, say that if innocent people are executed wrongly, that is regrettable, but as long as the vast majority of those executed are guilty, that is a price worth paying.
Which is fine: until it happens to you, or someone in your family.

I think I prefer Blackstone's Formulation (a bedrock of both English and US Common Law) than anything a right-wing republican has to say.
 

ainsworth74

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If people wish to discuss the advantages or disadvantages of reducing speed limits I'd ask that this is done on a different thread.
 

RailProfileUK

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The relevance of that being?

Do you agree with the justice system at the moment? Repeat offenders can go out time after time only to re-offend and then some of them go on to kill innocent people. If they were dealt with properly the first time they wouldn't get a chance to do it and the world would be a much safer place for us all.

some people think it is acceptable for to allow this to go on. I think its a shambles personally that's why I have the view I have.

If this youth did something to your family what would you have to say about it?
 

ainsworth74

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You have not answered the question that I asked. I would appreciate it if you could give me an answer to the relevance of my (or anyone else's) direct experience of crime.

Do you agree with the justice system at the moment? Repeat offenders can go out time after time only to re-offend and then some of them go on to kill innocent people. If they were dealt with properly the first time they wouldn't get a chance to do it and the world would be a much safer place for us all.

Not especially and I do think that some sentences are not sufficient for the crime (such as this one). However that does not mean that the state should be given permission to murder its citizens in the name of 'safety'. The death penalty does not work as a deterrent to crime and it does not make people safer. Indeed it probably makes people less safe. After all there's no chance I could be put to death in this country for a crime I have been falsely convicted of. Personally I believe that it is better that ten guilty people should go free than one innocent be punished (Blackstone's Formulation).

If this youth did something to your family what would you have to say about it?

I would expect them to face the full force of the law for the crimes they had committed. I personally might prefer to see them go away for life, however, as the victim of that crime it is not my place to decide their fate. That is the role of an impartial justice system and judiciary.
 

radamfi

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I would say that 50 years in jail is worse that the death penalty. I would much prefer a pain free death than the rest of my life in jail, especially if I was guilty. If you have committed a serious crime then your life is ruined anyway. I think if a prisoner wants to kill himself then he should allowed to die and the death be made as pain free as possible.

Almost all policy decisions involve risk. Allowing cars is a risk. Allowing paracetamol to be sold in supermarkets is a risk. Sentencing someone to 10 years in prison is a big risk - what if he is innocent? If I was in prison for 10 years, I'm not sure any amount of compensation would be enough.
 

transmanche

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Do you agree with the justice system at the moment?
If you don't then you lobby for it to be changed so that it's more effective. You don't just start executing people!

In GB, just over 150 people per 100,000 are in prison (in NI & RoI, it's just under 100 per 100,000).

Let's compare that with some of our North Sea neighbours:

Denmark: 74
Germany: 83
Netherlands: 87
Norway: 73
Sweden: 70

Now are these countries (most of whom have what are perceived as more 'liberal' penal systems) more dangerous than the UK? They all have lower murder rates than the UK.

So what's more important? Retribution or rehabilitation?
 

radamfi

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Denmark: 74
Germany: 83
Netherlands: 87
Norway: 73
Sweden: 70

These are countries with very high levels of social cohesion and equality. They are not like the Anglo-Saxon countries with divided societies and many people who feel socially excluded. Following the Nordic model like the northern European countries is a far more better way of cutting crime than developing a comprehensive penal system. Although Conservatives say that the cut in UK crime between the mid-90s and today is a result of the 'prison works' policies of Michael Howard.
 

Yew

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So what's more important? Retribution or rehabilitation?

Rehabilitation. And this inculdes support de-institutionalising people, and when they have been released, assistance getting them on their feet, to reduce the chance of reoffending.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Rehabilitation. And this includes support de-institutionalising people, and when they have been released, assistance getting them on their feet, to reduce the chance of re-offending.

Do you not agree that there will still be certain individuals, despite being given all assistance to turn their lives around, will still want to be seen as a personage to be "regarded" within their own community once released. I am thinking of Liverpool and two notorious gangs with members involved in much lucrative crimes such as the Croxteth Crew and the Norris Green Strand Gang, who could make large sums of money from their involvement from the drugs trade....far more than than could be earned in a normal full-time job.

Manchester once had the nickname of "Gunchester" for obvious reasons, but there are young gang members of the same age as the youth who is the one in the report in this thread who will have no compunction to shoot anyone as proof of their gang status. If they place no value upon a life, do you honestly think that measures proposed will have Damascene life-changing results on these youths ?
 

swj99

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I don't think there's any evidence to support the assertion that the death penalty is an effective or consistent deterrent. In fact there are those who suggest that the death penalty (in places where it is used) promotes murder instead of deterring it. In addition to this, the murder rate in Canada dropped after the death penalty was abolished there.

Some crimes are so harmful to society that I think the primary objective should be to remove the perpetrator from society, not necessarily as a punishment, but so that society is protected.

There are some crimes where the potential sentence acts as a deterrent. An example might be car cloning. On the one hand, if you were caught with a warehouse full of stolen cars, you might be looking at a custodial, and some people may be put off such a crime because of this. It would be an informed decision whether or not to do the crime, based on the perceived risk involved, and the estimated sentence if caught. Murder and attempted murder on the other hand are not always committed by people who are thinking as rationally as the potential car cloner in the first example, who makes a calculated decision. If a man comes home and finds his wife in bed with his friend, and stabs him to death, he's likely to do this in a fit of rage, and as such, will not be subject to the normal rational thought process where possible capture, and the question of what sentence he might get, are likely to be considered. The fact that he might be put to death for his crime would not necessarily deter him from killing or trying to kill, in the heat of the moment. In other words, to someone in that situation, it wouldn't make any difference whether the likely sentence was hanging or community service, he's going to do it anyway.
The main reason for prison is to protect the public. ........
Have to agree there. But I would say he should be put away indefinitely, or at least until he is no longer a risk to society, which I'm sure he is at the moment.

If we were really serious about cutting down deaths, we would have mandatory 20 mph speed limits in town with speed automatically controlled by GPS tracking and comprehensive segregated cycle paths.
Alternatively, we could just teach pedestrians to look both ways before crossing the road. It would be much cheaper. I'm sure there used to be public information films on tv about it years ago.

Repeat offenders can go out time after time only to re-offend and then some of them go on to kill innocent people. If they were dealt with properly the first time they wouldn't get a chance to do it and the world would be a much safer place for us all.........
Yes, that's definitely something that needs to be urgently addressed. There have been far too many cases where nutters have gradually upped the ante and ended up killing. Raoul Moat is a recent example that comes to mind. There are plenty like him who could and should be taken off the streets, with much longer sentences based on their previous crimes, for the protection of society. Not that it's likely to happen anytime soon. You've only got to read news reports to hear how frustrating it is for serving police officers to see offenders get bailed and go straight out committing crime again, time after time, with magistrates and judges restricted by rules and sentencing guidelines, and oh dear, they've closed a few more prisons, we'll have to sentence them to a 2 week holiday in Spain instead.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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There have been far too many cases where nutters have gradually upped the ante and ended up killing. Raoul Moat is a recent example that comes to mind. There are plenty like him who could and should be taken off the streets, with much longer sentences based on their previous crimes, for the protection of society. Not that it's likely to happen anytime soon. You've only got to read news reports to hear how frustrating it is for serving police officers to see offenders get bailed and go straight out committing crime again, time after time, with magistrates and judges restricted by rules and sentencing guidelines, and oh dear, they've closed a few more prisons, we'll have to sentence them to a 2 week holiday in Spain instead.

I can also cite an even more recent matter where a criminal would kill as part of his everyday existence without any feeling of remorse as was proved by 29 year old Dale Cregan and his admitted "execution" of the two female police officers, Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone.
 

455driver

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Why does every thread about how lenient the sentences are in this country end up going on about the death penalty?

Does anyone think the sentences handed down to ordinary criminals (muggers, thiefs etc) are too severe, about right or too lenient?
That is what the sensible people are on about!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Why does every thread about how lenient the sentences are in this country end up going on about the death penalty? Does anyone think the sentences handed down to ordinary criminals (muggers, thieves etc) are too severe, about right or too lenient? That is what the sensible people are on about!

The death penalty seemed to have been quite an acceptable option to be administered, with him in the role of the executioner, in the mind of Dale Cregan when he executed those two female police officers.

Do we have to now have to have a "double standard" on the death penalty, with sensible thoughtful people with humanity clearly against it as can be seen from some of the postings upon this thread, but a carte blanche freedom to impose the death penalty by members of the criminal and the gangland fraternities ?
 

455driver

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Its dair yoomun roites innit!

People like him should be executed but the point of this thread started off about prison sentences or other "punishments" such as community dis-service being too lenient.
The whole point of prison (to me at least) is as a deterant to stop most people commiting crime in the first place, the fact that prison is little more than a holiday camp means the deterant factor has been lost.
 

RailProfileUK

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You have not answered the question that I asked. I would appreciate it if you could give me an answer to the relevance of my (or anyone else's) direct experience of crime.



Not especially and I do think that some sentences are not sufficient for the crime (such as this one). However that does not mean that the state should be given permission to murder its citizens in the name of 'safety'. The death penalty does not work as a deterrent to crime and it does not make people safer. Indeed it probably makes people less safe. After all there's no chance I could be put to death in this country for a crime I have been falsely convicted of. Personally I believe that it is better that ten guilty people should go free than one innocent be punished (Blackstone's Formulation).



I would expect them to face the full force of the law for the crimes they had committed. I personally might prefer to see them go away for life, however, as the victim of that crime it is not my place to decide their fate. That is the role of an impartial justice system and judiciary.

Relevance being when you have tried to live your life as a law abiding citizen and been faced with scumbags on a weekly basis and had you life made a misery you get a bit fed up hence my opinion. I come from a rough council estate in Manchester and have seen youths like the one this thread is about go on to commit murder, rape, armed robbery etc...
 

yorkie

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I wonder what those who appeared to be defending this thug, and our ludicrous legal system, have to say now?

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/150...r_attack_on_brother___sister_in_Coney_Street/
A THUG has been jailed for two years and seven months for a vicious attack on a brother and sister in York city centre.

Callum Tooley, 21, and his girlfriend Mollie Kilby, 20, punched and kicked Christian Pratt as he lay on the ground, following an altercation between three groups. Kilby was given a suspended sentence...

...Mr Pratt, who is likely to be scarred for life, was taken to hospital with deep cuts to his lips and knuckle marks on his forehead, as well as a dislodged tooth. He was put on antibiotics after the wounds became infected and has suffered headaches ever since.

“He now avoids going out in York and had to take time off work,” added Mr Galley. Kilby and Tooley both admitted wounding Mr Pratt. Kilby also pleaded guilty to assaulting his sister. Tooley had a long list of previous convictions for violence, including assaulting a police officer, affray and attacking staff at a children’s unit. He also had an ABH conviction for biting a prison officer’s thumb when he was a youth. In 2013, he was given a 20-month jail sentence for wounding and common assault after stabbing someone who had ejected him from a party. ..
And it's still not enough.

Who will be next? There is no way that's his last victim.
 

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yorkie

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I'd just want to see (much) longer sentences for violent crime, and more restrictions when they are released.

I don't think punishing violence with violence is the answer.

I do know one of Tooley's many victims, who had a broken skull and was not expected to recover. It was considered miraculous that he did - eventually - fully recover. Despite this, at the time, Tooley was granted anonymity and the freedom to lash out at many more victims.

I am not looking forward to the inevitable response from one or two members who I am aware have very different views to me on violent crime, and I suspect I will feel very upset and angry when I see their responses, unless they've changed their views since (which I hope, but sadly doubt).

I think the main thing is to know you are doing the right thing. I know the right thing is to expose Tooley and raise awareness of his crimes, and to speak out against both him and our joke of a legal system. If people want to disagree with me, they have the right to, but they have to live with knowing that such views are what causes many more people to become victims than would otherwise be the case.
 

Merseysider

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yorkie said:
I don't think punishing violence with violence is the answer.
I don't think violence would be morally defensible, and I'm certainly against the death penalty, but this case does make me wonder if certain other methods of 'justice' would be more effective in curtailing recidivism <(
You called it.

Lashings!
Too kind for this type of scum.

For repeat violent criminals, who reject the societal ideals the rest of us accept, you might as well extract some labour to cover the costs of their incarceration.

Off to the Gulag. <D
 
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