Violent York thug is locked up (but not for very long)

[mikeg]

It's not often I call for harsher sentences, if anything I think the incarceration rate in this country is a tad high, but this does seem to be one case where it is worth paying to lock him up for longer and shall we say put him on some severe 're-educational' programme.

I saw the article in the York Press and thought 'think I recognise that name from somewhere' - now I know where.

 

[furnessvale]

It's not often I call for harsher sentences, if anything I think the incarceration rate in this country is a tad high, but this does seem to be one case where it is worth paying to lock him up for longer and shall we say put him on some severe 're-educational' programme.

I saw the article in the York Press and thought 'think I recognise that name from somewhere' - now I know where.

William Whitelaw invented the "short, sharp shock". 6 months hard discipline to teach young offenders the error of their ways.

It had one major flaw. If the recipient of such treatment reoffended, the "shock" was deemed to have failed with him and he was sent to a normal "soft" prison thereafter.

Word soon got round that you only had to suffer one shock and that thereafter you were back in the normal system.

What should have happened is that, on reoffending, an initial 6 months was followed by 9 months, then 12 and so on until the offender realised the system would always win.

 

[TheEdge]

Too kind for this type of scum.

For repeat violent criminals, who reject the societal ideals the rest of us accept, you might as well extract some labour to cover the costs of their incarceration.

Off to the Gulag.

Hobbling wheel?

 

[Bevan Price]

The jusitce system is a disgrace, I would hang him no questions, bring back the death penalty.

If you are serious, I suggest you read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans

And then ask yourself - would YOU be willing to put the rope around the neck of a convicted parent/child/partner/relative, etc., knowing that there might be a small chance that they were innocent ?

Or would you like to be hanged for something that you had not done ?

The death penalty is too final in a flawed legal / police system.

 

[TheEdge]

And in response I return the likes of Shipman and the Wests. Those who are unquestionably guilty.

In truly heinous cases where there is absolutely no doubt, at any level, to the guilt of the offender then I would support it.

 

[AlterEgo]

And in response I return the likes of Shipman and the Wests. Those who are unquestionably guilty.

In truly heinous cases where there is absolutely no doubt, at any level, to the guilt of the offender then I would support it.

If there is any reasonable doubt as to whether someone is guilty then they should not be convicted.

 

[LowLevel]

If you are serious, I suggest you read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans

And then ask yourself - would YOU be willing to put the rope around the neck of a convicted parent/child/partner/relative, etc., knowing that there might be a small chance that they were innocent ?

Or would you like to be hanged for something that you had not done ?

The death penalty is too final in a flawed legal / police system.

There are plenty of offenders for whom there is absolutely no doubt of their guilt - I refer to people like Lee Rigby's murderers and so on. I see absolutely no reason not to put them to sleep in the manner you would a crazed dog in order to avoid having to spend money on keeping them alive, but locked up forever. The likes of Dale Cregan etc as mentioned a few years back now are other cases. It's economically and in my personal opinion, morally, sound.

You read of people with literally hundreds of convictions for things like assaults, burglary, and so on racking up over decades - may as well get shot of them as well. If you've been brought before a court 50 times and can't stop yourself the rest of society may as well cut their losses.

I hate to say it but I feel I turn into an angrier person every year - there needs to be a way of wiping the smirk off the faces of people who don't respect other people's rights to live their lives unmolested.

If rehabilitation is given a good chance and doesn't work then I'm sorry to say I feel I've reached a point in life where actually, just hurting them instead works for me.

I see far too many people going about life in a way that's a disgrace with total impunity.

Isn't it horrible that a fairly normal (ish), law abiding person feels this way about other humans? Guess what, there's plenty of it about and lo and behold, Donald Trump is president.

People who say that 'violence is wrong full stop' etc need to come up with a workable solution some time soon, ideally, before the lunatics take over the asylum.

 

[yorkie]

People who say that 'violence is wrong full stop' etc need to come up with a workable solution some time soon, ideally, before the lunatics take over the asylum.

While I don't agree with violence as the answer, but certainly do think punishments for the sort of crimes you describe should be harsher, I do certainly understand your frustration.

 

[Bevan Price]

There are plenty of offenders for whom there is absolutely no doubt of their guilt - I refer to people like Lee Rigby's murderers and so on. I see absolutely no reason not to put them to sleep in the manner you would a crazed dog in order to avoid having to spend money on keeping them alive, but locked up forever. The likes of Dale Cregan etc as mentioned a few years back now are other cases. It's economically and in my personal opinion, morally, sound.

You read of people with literally hundreds of convictions for things like assaults, burglary, and so on racking up over decades - may as well get shot of them as well. If you've been brought before a court 50 times and can't stop yourself the rest of society may as well cut their losses.

I hate to say it but I feel I turn into an angrier person every year - there needs to be a way of wiping the smirk off the faces of people who don't respect other people's rights to live their lives unmolested.

If rehabilitation is given a good chance and doesn't work then I'm sorry to say I feel I've reached a point in life where actually, just hurting them instead works for me.

I see far too many people going about life in a way that's a disgrace with total impunity.

Isn't it horrible that a fairly normal (ish), law abiding person feels this way about other humans? Guess what, there's plenty of it about and lo and behold, Donald Trump is president.

People who say that 'violence is wrong full stop' etc need to come up with a workable solution some time soon, ideally, before the lunatics take over the asylum.

We will have to agree to disagree about the death penalty when court procedures are involved. However, I would have no objection to armed police "taking out" armed criminals or terrorists whilst actively participating in serious crime.

I would also support the return of some corporal punishment for crimes involving violence or vandalism, etc. - and also use of the cane in schools. The threat of "6" on the bare bottom in front of class or the whole school would be enough to make the majority behave sensibly (although there would always be an unwise minority who might never be controllable).

As for Mr Trump - well he is making himself popular to some, and very unpopular to others. I hope the FBI & CIA are well prepared to protect him in a country where any "disturbed" person seems able to obtain guns & ammunition. I hope I am wrong, but I fear for his safety.

 

[AlterEgo]

There are plenty of offenders for whom there is absolutely no doubt of their guilt - I refer to people like Lee Rigby's murderers and so on. I see absolutely no reason not to put them to sleep in the manner you would a crazed dog in order to avoid having to spend money on keeping them alive, but locked up forever. The likes of Dale Cregan etc as mentioned a few years back now are other cases. It's economically and in my personal opinion, morally, sound.

You read of people with literally hundreds of convictions for things like assaults, burglary, and so on racking up over decades - may as well get shot of them as well. If you've been brought before a court 50 times and can't stop yourself the rest of society may as well cut their losses.

I hate to say it but I feel I turn into an angrier person every year - there needs to be a way of wiping the smirk off the faces of people who don't respect other people's rights to live their lives unmolested.

If rehabilitation is given a good chance and doesn't work then I'm sorry to say I feel I've reached a point in life where actually, just hurting them instead works for me.

I see far too many people going about life in a way that's a disgrace with total impunity.

Isn't it horrible that a fairly normal (ish), law abiding person feels this way about other humans? Guess what, there's plenty of it about and lo and behold, Donald Trump is president.

People who say that 'violence is wrong full stop' etc need to come up with a workable solution some time soon, ideally, before the lunatics take over the asylum.

I can sympathise with this to an extent.

Mrs AlterEgo likes watching Police Interceptors and all the other police reality shows. The longer I watch programmes like that the more jaded I become. I am quite peed off at watching career criminals take the mickey time and time again.

I am sure that part of the problem lies with me simply reading more news and watching more police shows, but I wish we had a two tier system of sorts. Frankly a three strikes system like they have in the USA might be worth trialling, as long as we are prepared to accept that one off, non-dangerous criminals like fraudsters and so on are not routinely jailed. (Think of the jail space!)

 

[LowLevel]

Those police things do my head in. You watch someone wreak havoc for 15 minutes then 'this Muppet won't be doing it again - he got a suspended sentence and community service' far from sounding like a harsh denunciation just makes me put my head in my hands.

 

[LowLevel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-38859270

A "mindless" vandal who caused £3,500 of damage to an ambulance by throwing a concrete slab at the window has been ordered to pay £50 compensation.

Josh Thacker kicked and punched the ambulance and threw projectiles at it while the crew were inside a nearby house treating a patient.

Oh wait, another one. 50 quid compensation for smashing up an ambulance with a concrete slab, having twice damaged other people's property in the same time scale, plus a racist offence. Euthanise.

 

[455driver]

How come she got a suspended sentence?
I thought we had equality these days!

 

[godfreycomplex]

Oy vey
Reading this thread makes the words "judge not lest ye be judged" spring to mind in ten feet tall neon writing
Remember these young men and women in these situations haven't become this way by accident, like everything else, it's a combination of genetics and environment that makes them react to outside stimuli with violence and aggression, and environment, and one's conscious and unconscious reactions to genetic predisposition, can be changed, to the extent that the person doesn't react in a violent and aggressive way to outside stimuli any more. That is rehabilitation and that is what a custodial system is there for. Think about how difficult it must be that the only way you know how to react to the world is with violence and aggression, it must be a very distressing and lonely existence, and if those reactions aren't addressed, the whole vicious cycle starts again.
That's not to say that what they do should go unpunished, there are victims on both sides I recognise that, but if they are punished for committing crime the only focus must be to ensure they can change, and to go some way in ending their personal nightmare, and by making the world better by having these people fully participating in it. You don't get that by simply locking people up, or worse, the cycle simply begins again and more people get hurt.
There, I said it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One verse from the W S Gilbert song from "The Mikado":-

"My object all sublime
I shall achieve in time,
To let the punishment fit the crime,
The punishment fit the crime
Any make each prisoner pent
Unwillingly represent
A source of innocent merriment
Of innocent merriment"

MOTTO...So called "hard men" cannot stand being laughed at, especially when ensconced in a set of stocks in public view.

 

[yorkie]

Oy vey
Reading this thread makes the words "judge not lest ye be judged" spring to mind in ten feet tall neon writing
Remember these young men and women in these situations haven't become this way by accident, like everything else, it's a combination of genetics and environment that makes them react to outside stimuli with violence and aggression, and environment, and one's conscious and unconscious reactions to genetic predisposition, can be changed, to the extent that the person doesn't react in a violent and aggressive way to outside stimuli any more. That is rehabilitation and that is what a custodial system is there for. Think about how difficult it must be that the only way you know how to react to the world is with violence and aggression, it must be a very distressing and lonely existence, and if those reactions aren't addressed, the whole vicious cycle starts again.
That's not to say that what they do should go unpunished, there are victims on both sides I recognise that, but if they are punished for committing crime the only focus must be to ensure they can change, and to go some way in ending their personal nightmare, and by making the world better by having these people fully participating in it. You don't get that by simply locking people up, or worse, the cycle simply begins again and more people get hurt.
There, I said it.

And this is why Tooley (I had to be careful with the auto-correct there!) has so many victims.

Some people can change but some people can't. Until there is confidence they have changed their ways, they shouldn't be let loose to inflict misery on yet more victims.

 

[LowLevel]

'Yes, we think they have changed. Release them on parole and we will see how they get on'.

'Aww shucks, seems we got it a bit wrong, they've put another innocent person in a mortuary'.

No one should ever get hurt in an effort to give these people their lives back.

I once got involved in a court case with a bloke who was 56 who had committed a crime on the railway. His recent convictions included a telling off for shooting a shop window out with an air rifle after he'd been ejected for aggressive behaviour and shouting at the fruit and veg. He'd been in trouble, regularly, for over 40 years. He got a 60 quid fine and a victim surcharge for his latest offence.

Another bloke who had just been released by the police pulled a gun on the lone station worker at Skegness when he missed the last train. The station guy had to lock himself in the office for 40 minutes until the armed response unit turned up, who it appears were on first name terms with this bloke, cautioned him, and gave him a lift to Boston!!! Sometimes you think the American way of just shooting him would have been just grand.

Why are they still walking around able to cause misery to other people?

 

[GatwickDepress]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38881790

A man has admitted pulling a niqab off a woman and subjecting her to a tirade of racial abuse.

Peter Scotter shouted "you are in our country now" when he attacked his victim, who was with her young son, at a Sunderland shopping centre.

The 55-year-old, of Beach Street, Roker, Sunderland, admitted racially aggravated assault by beating and racially aggravated harassment.

He has 66 previous convictions and was told he was facing a jail sentence.

Both offences were based on Scotter's hostility towards a particular religious group, namely Islam, the court heard.
Grabbed veil

Judge Stephen Earl heard the victim was standing outside the Bridges shopping centre in July when Scotter grabbed her veil, almost throwing her to the ground.

Laura Lax, prosecuting, said the attack had left the victim feeling as if she
could not go out.

Tony Hawks, defending, said Scotter had recently been diagnosed with a cancerous tumour under his tongue and was due to undergo surgery.
'Stupid' Muslim

During the abuse, Scotter was heard to swear at the woman and call her a "stupid" Muslim.

He continued to make derogatory comments when he was being interviewed after his arrest, Miss Lax said.

Scotter's previous convictions include actual bodily harm and racially aggravated criminal damage.

How on earth are you still allowed out in public, especially in a diverse area, if you've got 66 convictions including actual bodily harm and racially-aggravated criminal damage? After the 65th, did they definitely think he'd not do it again?!

I don't want to end up like the United States where your entire life can be ruined by smoking a joint, but I feel you have to admit defeat when it comes to repeat offenders like him.

 

[furnessvale]

We will have to agree to disagree about the death penalty when court procedures are involved. However, I would have no objection to armed police "taking out" armed criminals or terrorists whilst actively participating in serious crime.

That is exactly where capital punishment now resides.

Sadly, the police officer involved is often hounded mercilessly after the event. A colleague of mine never carried a gun again after the hounding he received, despite having let the gunman fire at him THREE times before my friend put two in his chest.

If you want capital punishment then let it be AFTER a court has fully weighed up all the evidence, not after a split second decision by a police officer.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is exactly where capital punishment now resides.

Would you agree that certain elements in the criminal fraternity are unshaken believers in their own warped version of capital punishment, as so often reported in the media.

 

[furnessvale]

Would you agree that certain elements in the criminal fraternity are unshaken believers in their own warped version of capital punishment, as so often reported in the media.

Yes, I can agree with that.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

We will have to agree to disagree about the death penalty when court procedures are involved. However, I would have no objection to armed police "taking out" armed criminals or terrorists whilst actively participating in serious crime.

I would also support the return of some corporal punishment for crimes involving violence or vandalism, etc. - and also use of the cane in schools. The threat of "6" on the bare bottom in front of class or the whole school would be enough to make the majority behave sensibly (although there would always be an unwise minority who might never be controllable).

Yes we had that when I was at school, the deterrent effect of knowing the cane could be used was usually enough to keep us in order. Some countries do still have that available in their legal/judicial systems.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would also support the return of some corporal punishment for crimes involving violence or vandalism, etc. - and also use of the cane in schools. The threat of "6" on the bare bottom in front of class or the whole school would be enough to make the majority behave sensibly (although there would always be an unwise minority who might never be controllable).

The Isle of Man still used birching as a method of corporal punishment until as late as 1976.

 

[GusB]

Yes we had that when I was at school, the deterrent effect of knowing the cane could be used was usually enough to keep us in order. Some countries do still have that available in their legal/judicial systems.

Caning is barbaric. As is any form of corporal punishment, as far as I'm concerned. I started secondary school in 1986, and a few teachers still used the tawse. It wasn't a deterrent; if it was, why was it that the same kids got belted over and over?

Some teachers had a policy. Forget your homework once, and I'll they'd make you do something stupid in front of the whole class. Forget it twice and you'll have to do a written exercise. Forget it a third time, and you'll get belted. Fair enough, we knew where we stood, but there were some who didn't have any policy and dished it out according to how crap they were feeling that day.

We had a drama teacher that lashed out with the tawse. As it turned out, he tended to lash out with his fists too, which was his ultimate undoing. Funny how you can strike a child with a cane or a leather strap and it's all okay, but the minute they use their hand it's suddenly so wrong...

No, no, no. It's not what a civilised society should be doing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Caning is barbaric. As is any form of corporal punishment, as far as I'm concerned. I started secondary school in 1986, and a few teachers still used the tawse. It wasn't a deterrent; if it was, why was it that the same kids got belted over and over?

Some teachers had a policy. Forget your homework once, and I'll they'd make you do something stupid in front of the whole class. Forget it twice and you'll have to do a written exercise. Forget it a third time, and you'll get belted. Fair enough, we knew where we stood, but there were some who didn't have any policy and dished it out according to how crap they were feeling that day.

We had a drama teacher that lashed out with the tawse. As it turned out, he tended to lash out with his fists too, which was his ultimate undoing. Funny how you can strike a child with a cane or a leather strap and it's all okay, but the minute they use their hand it's suddenly so wrong...

No, no, no. It's not what a civilised society should be doing.

I note the use of the word "civilised" that is made from a Western perspective which assumes superiority in civilisation but if you were to view the same word from an Islamic theocratic point of view, it would not hold the same connotations.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sure all of the lock 'em up and flog 'em brigade would be very happy to have a super new prison built next door to them followed by an increase in their taxation bills to pay for the building and manning of the new suite of prisons.

It kind of overlooks the point that the prison system is already in chaos and massively underfunded. By all means lock them up. Just make sure you are happy to live next to a prison and pay the bill.

 

[TheEdge]

I am sure all of the lock 'em up and flog 'em brigade would be very happy to have a super new prison built next door to them followed by an increase in their taxation bills to pay for the building and manning of the new suite of prisons.

It kind of overlooks the point that the prison system is already in chaos and massively underfunded. By all means lock them up. Just make sure you are happy to live next to a prison and pay the bill.

I have a better suggestion. Not only does it save money but also helps the environments and makes work safer in Bangladesh;

Prison Hulks!

 

[DarloRich]

I have a better suggestion. Not only does it save money but also helps the environments and makes work safer in Bangladesh;

Prison Hulks!

Very Magwitch.

same issue with nimbys mind! imagine those riverside flats ruined by looking at HMP Ark Royal!

 

[Bevan Price]

Caning is barbaric. As is any form of corporal punishment, as far as I'm concerned. I started secondary school in 1986, and a few teachers still used the tawse. It wasn't a deterrent; if it was, why was it that the same kids got belted over and over?

Some teachers had a policy. Forget your homework once, and I'll they'd make you do something stupid in front of the whole class. Forget it twice and you'll have to do a written exercise. Forget it a third time, and you'll get belted. Fair enough, we knew where we stood, but there were some who didn't have any policy and dished it out according to how crap they were feeling that day.

We had a drama teacher that lashed out with the tawse. As it turned out, he tended to lash out with his fists too, which was his ultimate undoing. Funny how you can strike a child with a cane or a leather strap and it's all okay, but the minute they use their hand it's suddenly so wrong...

No, no, no. It's not what a civilised society should be doing.

Yes - some children continued to misbehave, and got belted many times. But how many more behaved well because of the threat of getting the tawse or cane if they did misbehave ?

(And yes, there ere / were bad teachers who used the belt or the cane for the wrong reasons. Punishment is never a cure for poor memory, or inability to study effectively. )

 

[DarloRich]

I hope anyone calling for longer and harsher sentences more often saw the panorama programme on BBC this evening and will acknowledge the issues and inadequacies with the current prison system and population