Virgin Qualified Train Drivers

[RJ]

Well I don't wish to start a debate about the value of degrees. The point I am making is simply a response to RJ's post, which is that the only reason such a large number of people apply for trainee driving positions is because of the large and unjustifiably high salary in comparison to other unskilled jobs. I wouldn't want to promise anyone that such salaries are sustainable and secure for decades to come.

Whilst I won't get drawn into the debate over the nature of the job, I will concur that a lot of people are probably only interested in it because they can earn a good wage without the requirement to hold any special qualifications at the stage of applying. Fair play to them as well, there comes a point where we all have to put food on the table so why not go for a job that you feel you are capable of doing?

That said, I do wonder sometimes, probably 90%+ of threads in this section are related to train driving posts. Quite a few from people seemingly barely able to string a sentence together properly!

 

[Dave1987]

Whilst I won't get drawn into the debate over the nature of the job, I will concur that a lot of people are probably only interested in it because they can earn a good wage without the requirement to hold any special qualifcations at the stage of applying. Fair play to them as well, there comes a point where we all have to put food on the table so why not go for a job that you feel you are capable of doing?

That said, I do wonder sometimes, probably 90%+ of threads in this section are related to train driving posts. Quite a few from people seemingly barely able to string a sentence together properly!

My local station Colchester put up advertisements for SC platform dispatch staff. You would not believe some of the applications that came in. One guy asked the supervisor if he could fill it out for him as he couldn't read english very well. One looked like it had been scrunched up in the guys pocket until he could be bothered to hand it in. Im sure of the 900 applicants for every trainee job at least half dont even get through the paper sift due to ppl trying to fill the application form out in five minutes on the back of a match box. Took me 3 hrs to write mine out and I did it all in rough first so I was just copying onto the form itself so I didnt make a mistake and it looked extremely neat.

 

[whhistle]

Train driving is NOT an unskilled job. If it were, anyone could do it and those that did do it could be replaced relatively easily like the bus drivers you mentioned earlier. Now that job is relatively unskilled.

The problem is the unions.

I would think there are hundreds of people who would be happy to drive trains for £30k a year and have the skills to do so, but as ASLEF is so strong then the company cannot just let drivers go.

While I don't want to really start comparing bus drivers to train drivers, a bus driver has to deal with other vehicles on the road, a train driver has a pre-set path in which they have little influence over. I agree, train drivers may have a lot of knowledge but lots of people can learn things if they are given the chance.

 

[E&W Lucas]

This is very off topic, but as alluded to above, I'm opting for the degree route instead. Working on the railways did appeal to me for a time (probably when I was more naive!), but not anymore.

Just think of this. Whilst you're racking up about £30k in debts at Uni, I'll be earning about £180k + driving trains!
Good, isn't it! Almost wish I had done it, instead of my degree!

What would happen to us if the railways shut down tomorrow?
Well, as has been explained many, many times before, most of us are doing this as a second career, having had decent jobs previously. We would just go back to that which we also know. maybe not as good, but we wouldn't be unemployable by any means. Perhaps we also have the management skills, trade skills, etc. that you mention.

 

[dangie]

Most on the forum who would like to become a train driver wish it for one reason:

They like trains.....

 

[Emilymay86]

Well I don't wish to start a debate about the value of degrees. The point I am making is simply a response to RJ's post, which is that the only reason such a large number of people apply for trainee driving positions is because of the large and unjustifiably high salary in comparison to other unskilled jobs. I wouldn't want to promise anyone that such salaries are sustainable and secure for decades to come.

Not everyone has the opportunity to get degrees. Some people have a rubbish start in life through no fault of their own and totally have the ability and intelligence to gain a degree...but not the opportunities.

So why can they not have a shot at a highly responsible, well paid job?? I think it is great that some jobs like Train Driving are out there where they take on board your abilities and attributes instead of whether or not you have a degree to prove those skills.

 

[A-driver]

I am rather confused how a job with no transferable skills should be low pay-by my logic its the opposite. If a company is going to train me in lots of skills I can then take to other employers and make more money from then I would expect to be paid less. If they want me to do a job of no use elsewhere with 'no' transferable skills then I expect to be compensated for that-if you like I need the extra pay to put aside for this day you talk about when train drivers will apparently be obsolete (which isn't going to happen by any stretch of the imagination in our or our kids lifetimes!)

As for skill-I'd be interested to know what you class as a skilled job. Surely a year of intense training plus more on the job training counts for something. Plus you do need a fair but of experience in related fields to get through the interviews and testing-not a school leavers job.

If I went for a job interview tomorrow outside the railway the fact I can drive trains would count for nothing. However what skills has it given me? Well...I can organise my diary effectively through flexible shift work (a different kind of shift work to most shift workers); I can get to work when required by public or private transport; capable of working long hours with few breaks; able to work outside office hours if needed; able to concentrate on my work 100% and ignore distractions; work alone very effectively without the need for help from others; equally able to work as a team; able to communicate clearly; able to write reports effectively and on time; able to make important decisions on my own quickly and effectively often within a split second. Just to provide a few examples of my lack of skills.

 

[ReverendFozz]

Course it is unskilled, it is like a bus driver, innit, get up, goto work, get in the cab and p**s about with knobs, levers and wheels for the rest of the shift, then go home...

Am kidding

While you may not need to be highly qualified to be a train driver, I would imagine you need to be highly skilled on a personal level, skills like near unlimited concentration and attention, the ability to accurately remember what happened 5 minutes ago and being able to think ahead of time, in that kind of job I would imagine being able to think ahead takes a lot of work and concentration knowing your next move could be a matter of life and death seeing as your responsible for staff and passengers.

While you may not need a qualification to drive a train it is far unskilled or semi skilled, and the skills needed simply cannot be taught in some college or university.

I would personally love to be a train driver, but I have not got the patience for it, I respect and kind of envy train drivers for what must be a head busting jobs at times.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

 

[All Line Rover]

I would imagine you need to be highly skilled on a personal level, skills like near unlimited concentration and attention, the ability to accurately remember what happened 5 minutes ago and being able to think ahead of time, in that kind of job I would imagine being able to think ahead takes a lot of work and concentration knowing your next move could be a matter of life and death seeing as your responsible for staff and passengers.

While you may not need a qualification to drive a train it is far unskilled or semi skilled, and the skills needed simply cannot be taught in some college or university.

I completely agree with this. Train driving does require many instinctive skills and competencies that not everyone possesses, and the job is more difficult and demanding than other jobs such as bus driving, even without having to deal with the passengers! But...

While you may not need to be highly qualified to be a train driver

...this point is what most people seem to be overlooking. Train drivers are not highly paid because of the skills and competencies required for their job. More people possess these than there are vacancies. The high pay is mostly down to, as I've already pointed out, the high training costs (which encourage 'premium' TOCs to 'poach' qualified drivers by raising pay) and strong union power. The latter is fair enough but the former needs to be sorted out.

I am aware that train driver's rights (such as Sunday working) have been eroded over the years. I don't think they are any worse than other types of shift work, but it is right and proper for the unions to object to any further changes.

 

[455driver]

This is very off topic, but as alluded to above, I'm opting for the degree route instead. Working on the railways did appeal to me for a time (probably when I was more naive!), but not anymore.

So you are one of those graduates that have never done the job but expect to tell others how to do it because you have a degree!:roll:

We have a name (well several actually) for people like you but this is a family forum!

You dont actually know anything about the job but feel you have enough of an idea to state we are overpaid, yeah whatever.

I had better stop there, dont want another telling off from da admin.:cry:

edit, I have a degree in origami* but it doesnt mean I could tell a builder how to do his job, a degree is a bit of paper with no real relevance in 90% of jobs but just gives some people that "I am better than you because I have a degree" feeling where-as what is required is some actual knowledge of what is required and you dont get that from a piece of paper.

We had to tolerate one of these a couple of years ago that tried to re-invent the wheel before he was shown the door, his replacement (an ex-driver) has got industrial relations back where they were before this clown practically destroyed the depot.

* I dont actually.

 

[Dave1987]

So you are one of those graduates that have never done the job but expect to tell others how to do it because you have a degree!:roll:

We have a name (well several actually) for people like you but this is a family forum!

You dont actually know anything about the job but feel you have enough of an idea to state we are overpaid, yeah whatever.

I had better stop there, dont want another telling off from da admin.:cry:

I know this is completely off topic and I apologise as such in advance. My other half works as a team leader in the internet home shopping department of a supermarket. They have a lot of Uni students employed as there people who "pick" the items off the shop floor. She says they have a real big problem with them as half of them are partying on the town until 3am and then claim they cant get to work on time. A lot of uni students have their priorities all wrong. They expect to walk into high paid jobs just because they have a bit of paper saying they are clever but they have no work ethic or common sense. Can you imagine what would happen to one of us if we said sorry I was out drinking last night till the early hours so I cant come in to drive a train. Anyway I think I have made my point, drivers get paid an appropriate amount of money for the amount of responsibility they have, simple as that!

 

[455driver]

The problem is the unions.

I would think there are hundreds of people who would be happy to drive trains for £30k a year and have the skills to do so, but as ASLEF is so strong then the company cannot just let drivers go.

While I don't want to really start comparing bus drivers to train drivers, a bus driver has to deal with other vehicles on the road, a train driver has a pre-set path in which they have little influence over. I agree, train drivers may have a lot of knowledge but lots of people can learn things if they are given the chance.

What a load of rubbish, bus drivers are (mostly) in unions so why are they not on £40k?
When was the last time you were on a bus doing 125mph in freezing fog in complete safety?
Any monkey can make a train go and stop (even a monkey with a degree) but that is probably 1% of train driving, but hey you have seen us driving and drinking tea so it must be easy.:roll:

edit, I have stated my case and will bow out of this thread now so mr high and mighty can exclaim his fountain of knowledge (or ignorance depending on your opinion of him) for all to see.

Oh I was a bus driver for 15 years before going traindriving so have apretty good idea about both jobs!

 

[notadriver]

Here here 455driver we all sing from the same song sheet. Don't let 'them' wind you up.

 

[Pumbaa]

I think there is a general current concensus that train drivers are relatively overpaid. I seem to recall that they have also featured in the top 20 best paid jobs (median) for the last few years.

Quick fact-check;per unit staffing costs within TOCS are 40% higher today than they were in 1997. Whether or not you think that is a good/bad thing, it is certain that inflation of drivers pay has contributed to that. I am not one to say whether or not drivers current pay truthfully reflects the responsibilites of the role - I am not a driver. Drivers will say 'yes', non drivers will say 'no'. Etc etc etc repeat till dawn.

What we have seen, and what (in my opinion) will continue to happen is the continued erosion of traincrew responsibilities (both drivers and guards) in the decision making during operations. Train driving today is not as highly skilled a job as it was 40 years ago. With the move to computer based in-cab signalling, automatic control, centralised operations, the role of train driving will be reduced to repetitive button pressing with no responsibility other than to confirm the computer is behaving as expected.

Now that wouldn't be worth £63k.

 

[notadriver]

What about pilots then? The autopilot can fly the plane from take off to touch down. I don't hear people saying they are unskilled and overpayed?

 

[A-driver]

I think there is a general current concensus that train drivers are relatively overpaid. I seem to recall that they have also featured in the top 20 best paid jobs (median) for the last few years.

Quick fact-check;per unit staffing costs within TOCS are 40% higher today than they were in 1997. Whether or not you think that is a good/bad thing, it is certain that inflation of drivers pay has contributed to that. I am not one to say whether or not drivers current pay truthfully reflects the responsibilites of the role - I am not a driver. Drivers will say 'yes', non drivers will say 'no'. Etc etc etc repeat till dawn.

What we have seen, and what (in my opinion) will continue to happen is the continued erosion of traincrew responsibilities (both drivers and guards) in the decision making during operations. Train driving today is not as highly skilled a job as it was 40 years ago. With the move to computer based in-cab signalling, automatic control, centralised operations, the role of train driving will be reduced to repetitive button pressing with no responsibility other than to confirm the computer is behaving as expected.

Now that wouldn't be worth £63k.

There will be a certain erosion of the job but not that severe. Train drivers will still be expected to have the same knowledge.

One of the factors with the channel tunnel fire years back was that they tried training the drivers on the shuttle with the bare minimum. Basically they skipped all rules training to make drivers easier to train and replace and instead gave them direct radio contact to control who have a rule book infront of them.

Basically the driver has no rules knowledge relevant to the fire emergency. He phoned control who did a sort if q&a on the situation. They came to the conclusion that the scenario that was happening was impossible and didn't exist-basically computer said no.

Since then drivers have been fully trained and always will be. The thing with incidents is they are never the same so those on the ground need full training and initiative.

 

[the sniper]

You and thousands of others! I think the long distance ex Intercity Train Operating Companies are in a position to only recruit drivers who have already been trained up so you may be waiting indefinitely for a trainee position to come up!

Personally I think this is a good thing. I'm not a driver and am not sure whether I'd ever want to be, but the pinnacle opportunity of a driver's career should not be getting the best pick of some crappy suburban diagrams.

Equally, I just don't think it's right that someone should just be able to walk in 'off the street' and get what would have been some top link work in BR/pre-nationalisation days, while guys with clean 20+ year driving records are stuck in crap 'top' links in Suburban TOC depots.

This is very off topic, but as alluded to above, I'm opting for the degree route instead. Working on the railways did appeal to me for a time (probably when I was more naive!), but not anymore.

Ah, so obviously if you ended up in a job that paid more than £40k a year, you'd have actually earned it (unlike train drivers) because your job required a proper education...? Whereas train drivers are just doing something that virtually anyone without a degree can do, obviously. :roll:

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The problem is the unions.

I would think there are hundreds of people who would be happy to drive trains for £30k a year and have the skills to do so, but as ASLEF is so strong then the company cannot just let drivers go.

While I don't want to really start comparing bus drivers to train drivers, a bus driver has to deal with other vehicles on the road, a train driver has a pre-set path in which they have little influence over. I agree, train drivers may have a lot of knowledge but lots of people can learn things if they are given the chance.

Bus driving has a lot of transferable skills from car driving, train driving doesnt. I've never driven a bus before but give me a key and a bus and I'm fairly confident I could have it figured out within a day or two.
Give a man who cant drive a train a key and see how long it takes for him to figure out how to even get the thing out of the sidings.

I actually agree with the argument that a lot more people want to go train driving today than ever because the money is so good. Why wouldn't you want to earn £1000 a week at Virgin West Coast? There were less applicants for every job fifteen, hell even ten years ago because the money, while still good wasnt such a big factor.

As for the argument that strong unions is a problem? Because they wont allow train driving to become a race to the bottom like so many other industries and services have? I'm sure people were saying the same thing when the unions were asking for paid leave, sick pay, a forty hour week (etc) but they were all good for the working man.
It's almost insulting how much unions have been demonised in this country over the past thirty years, the gap between the rich and poor is bigger than it ever has been because the people at the top have been very successful at turning the working classes against each other. Just look at the ever growing gap between executive pay and the national average wage.

 

[Pumbaa]

What about pilots then? The autopilot can fly the plane from take off to touch down. I don't hear people saying they are unskilled and overpayed?

I was thinking about that earlier just after I'd replied. I think there is quite a difference between planes and trains. Automated rail systems are present and well established. Planes and pilots are a different league.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There will be a certain erosion of the job but not that severe. Train drivers will still be expected to have the same knowledge.

One of the factors with the channel tunnel fire years back was that they tried training the drivers on the shuttle with the bare minimum. Basically they skipped all rules training to make drivers easier to train and replace and instead gave them direct radio contact to control who have a rule book infront of them.

Basically the driver has no rules knowledge relevant to the fire emergency. He phoned control who did a sort if q&a on the situation. They came to the conclusion that the scenario that was happening was impossible and didn't exist-basically computer said no.

Since then drivers have been fully trained and always will be. The thing with incidents is they are never the same so those on the ground need full training and initiative.

Good points. I wasn't trying to provide a definite answer, I was just attempting to point out that drivers pay can't exist at this level forever.

I don't have a crystal ball and say how things will change, but they will at some point!

 

[RJ]

Bus driving has a lot of transferable skills from car driving, train driving doesnt. I've never driven a bus before but give me a key and a bus and I'm fairly confident I could have it figured out within a day or two.
Give a man who cant drive a train a key and see how long it takes for him to figure out how to even get the thing out of the sidings.

I actually agree with the argument that a lot more people want to go train driving today than ever because the money is so good. Why wouldn't you want to earn £1000 a week at Virgin West Coast? There were less applicants for every job fifteen, hell even ten years ago because the money, while still good wasnt such a big factor.

True - I drive buses and whilst it's easy to learn, it's tricky to master. You have to have an entirely different mentality to when you drive a car. I won't pretend that buses and trains are the same kettle of fish but you do often need type training between different bus buses - it's not quite as simple as get in the cab, turn the key and go the first time! Full spatial awareness can take a bit of time to develop too, though this probably varies among people.

 

[Jonfun]

I appreciate the following has very little to do with Virgin Trains' drivers but since the topic's waded this way I'll add my two pence.

As someone who's currently doing a degree, I think it's a shame there's so much negativity towards people opting for that route as opposed to other means - and I think it's almost certainly a generational thing, as the attitude a few years back was that only the best students/most well off etc were able to study at university, and everyone else would go out there, get a job, and work their way up. FWIW, the railway would have been my main backup option should I not have got into university.

Nowadays though, it doesn't work like that. The rise in (for want of a better word) 'pretend' universities has meant that less able students are still able to go and get a piece of paper which says they've spent three years studying how to manage an airline or whatever and it'll still be a degree in the eyes of many employers - regardless of whether Mr Z has been to a university with a good reputation, and studied a 'proper' subject. Thus, you end up with more people with these "degrees" in the job market, and the potential there is for employers to disregard the person without a degree and instead employ Miss Y who's been to Anytown Metropolitan to study (read: go out partying every night and do coursework on the last day) Hairdressing Management. I'm not for a second suggesting there's anything wrong with courses like that - but are they really the same as a degree in something like History, English, or a Science? Would they not be more appropriate as vocational courses?

Equally the argument about managers falls down with the basic flaw that it's dependent on the person, not how they've become managers. You can have some absolutely brilliant managers who are graduates, likewise you can have great managers who have experience in the job. I have one manager who's a graduate, and who runs things brilliantly, and another who's worked his way up the ranks - and most people are after his head.

The fact is, train drivers have a lot of responsibility - although it has to be recognised that this will end up being reduced as technology improves (eg ERTMS) - and they have to be paid appropriately for that. Equally they work unsociable shifts and such, all of which has to be compensated for.

Hope this makes some sense,

Jon

 

[Safety365]

Applications for this vacancy closed on Christmas Eve (24/12/12)
Best of luck to all who applied. Interesting that there was nowhere on the application to state a preference of either Manchester or Liverpool.

 

[thomas69]

This is very off topic, but as alluded to above, I'm opting for the degree route instead. Working on the railways did appeal to me for a time (probably when I was more naive!), but not anymore.

Funny how my friend has a masters degree but opted for a train driving role. Perhaps it takes a clever person to realise what is a good well paid job. Obviously you need your head testing. MANY drivers have degrees but knowing what i know, MANY people with degrees could not be a driver.

 

[Silv1983]

Funny how my friend has a masters degree but opted for a train driving role. Perhaps it takes a clever person to realise what is a good well paid job. Obviously you need your head testing. MANY drivers have degrees but knowing what i know, MANY people with degrees could not be a driver.

I concur, and I like to think I'm one of them!

I have a degree and an NVQ level 4 - which didn't affect my decision to join the railways as a driver: but it certainly helped with my application and is currently doing so with my training. And before anyone accuses me of getting a 3rd in marketing from Sheffield Hallam: it's actually a 2:1 from Liverpool in Electrical Engineering and Computing.
With a decent salary and lots of paths of progression into management, standards, operations, H&S, various directors etc: more and more graduates are seeing potential for a good solid career which can begin on the footplate.
With many graduate schemes paying in the mid 20's why shouldn't they ignore them and go for a more rewarding nitty gritty / hands-on role.
Many careers which have their roots in working class history and culture are becoming increasingly occupied by the so called "degree wielding middle classes". This is as evident in the railways to me as it was in the police service. I won't add fuel to the fire and share a reason why this is... so I'll leave it there.

 

[Kylemaster]

I'm led to beleive virgin are opening up a training school again. Not sure how true it is but they will be training up new drivers from within the company only. Like I say I don't know for sure if its true though.

 

[A-driver]

I'm led to beleive virgin are opening up a training school again. Not sure how true it is but they will be training up new drivers from within the company only. Like I say I don't know for sure if its true though.

I wouldn't rule it out. If they are serious about starting extra services such as the Blackpool then they will need more drivers. They also often tend to find periods with quite a few people retiring-I have no idea if this is happening now but if so they may start internal recruiting.

I'm pretty sure the last time east coast advertised for qualifieds was due to the proposed Lincoln etc service and I believe they currently have 2 trainee drivers starting at Leeds.

 

[Sammy h]

I'm led to beleive virgin are opening up a training school again. Not sure how true it is but they will be training up new drivers from within the company only. Like I say I don't know for sure if its true though.

May I be nosy and ask the source of your rumour?

I currently work for Virgin and was not having much hope of anything coming up until about 5-10 years away when a lot of drivers are due to retire.

IF this is true, this is fantastic news. I will have to do some digging and find out. They did advertise for a driver trainer a month or two ago, but I presumed that would be for route refreshers etc for the current drivers.

Fingers crossed this is true Kyle.

 

[455driver]

Virgin have had a bolo um a telling off for poaching drivers from other companies so have to recruit a few trainees so they are seen to be "doing their bit".

Funny thing is the "poaching" would have been called promotion in BR days.

 

[SkinnyDave]

May I be nosy and ask the source of your rumour?

I currently work for Virgin and was not having much hope of anything coming up until about 5-10 years away when a lot of drivers are due to retire.

IF this is true, this is fantastic news. I will have to do some digging and find out. They did advertise for a driver trainer a month or two ago, but I presumed that would be for route refreshers etc for the current drivers.

Fingers crossed this is true Kyle.

I was told by a Polmadie driver that around 15 of Glasgow lads are not far away from retiring and that they would need to be replaced

 

[TDK]

Virgin have had a bolo um a telling off for poaching drivers from other companies so have to recruit a few trainees so they are seen to be "doing their bit".

Funny thing is the "poaching" would have been called promotion in BR days.

Who told them off and what source do you have? If I recall all TOC's have to take on some trainees and it something to do with the current employment laws!