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W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

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yorkie

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Thats not what I said and you know it. I'd expect word twisting like that from some of the lesser informed members of this forum; someone who's admin should know better.

Of course there are, which is why I'll probably walk through the train without my machine to keep an eye on such things. However, I shall perform a dynamic risk assessment as I am trained to do as a professional guard as to the safest course of actions.
That's not word twisting at all.

I can see contradictions in the claims against DOO, and you're not making it clear what is and isn't unsafe, as it appears to depend on various factors.

Is what happens in an unreachable part of the same train less of a concern than what happens in another train?

Perhaps we can agree that we cannot always have everything as safe as we'd like and sometimes that's just unavoidable, particularly at very busy times or times of disruption?

Possibly not but surely that's all the more reason for there to be more trained staff on board? Incidentally, we won't be seeing more than two units without corridor connections at FGW so with one staff member in each unit your situation doesn't arise.
But what about other operator services?

Are you saying that there should be 3 Guards on a 12-car train formed of 3 non-corridor units, or not?
Noones suggesting that it should be an either/or. Obviously things like GSMR are a big safety improvement. But why does that make it safe to dispense with the guard? Did we do away with seatbelts when air bags were invented?
Seatbelts would probably make trains marginally safer, but they don't have them, because it's considered an acceptable risk not to have them. You cannot eliminate all risks. There is a finite amount of money to go around and it's about making the best of it.

People have the right to be unhappy at losing pay (though that isn't actually going to happen to anyone currently employed by FGW) and they have the right to say what they'd like in an ideal world if money was no object.

But what I find concerning is when it is claimed that practices which take place on the majority of passenger rail journeys are unsafe. That isn't the case and commuters are far safer being on rail than on the roads.
 
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craigybagel

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I don't believe we're ever going to agree on acceptable risk - but for what its worth I don't think DOO is acceptable risk any where, and I think we've just been lucky so far. I do believe there should be a trained member of staff in every unit, and yes that includes 3X4 car sets. On the rare occasions I get two units together that don't have corridors, I always stay in the back, even though unit hopping is approved at my TOC.

That said, most of the places where it occurs at the moment is in suburban areas at lower speeds. I think its especially unacceptable for a high speed intercity train travelling through rural areas, and that is what is being proposed here.

I accept that a balance has to be struck here between cost and risk, but I don't believe the savings brought about by permitting DOO on high speed FGW services are worth the risk.
 

Failed Unit

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I can think of a few what I would consider high speed examples. Kings Cross - Cambridge via the cruiser? Although not DOO Edinburgh - Glasgow where the front 3 is the fare evading heaven.
 

ainsworth74

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Seatbelts would probably make trains marginally safer, but they don't have them, because it's considered an acceptable risk not to have them.

Actually the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) investigated this in the aftermath of Ufton Nervet and determined that seatbelts would increase fatalities and injuries rather than reduce them.
 

yorkie

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I can think of a few what I would consider high speed examples. Kings Cross - Cambridge via the cruiser? Although not DOO Edinburgh - Glasgow where the front 3 is the fare evading heaven.
Plus the fastest domestic trains in the country on HS1 are DOO!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) investigated this in the aftermath of Ufton Nervet and determined that seatbelts would increase fatalities and injuries rather than reduce them.
With current design of seats, yes, and I agree that we're better off without them.

Sometimes there are choices that have to be made, and as stated in the Railway Gazette
The result was that a choice had to be made: belts or crashworthy seats?
and unless everyone is going to wear a seatbelt (never going to happen) you have to design seats to assume that people are not going to wear a seatbelt.

Another interesting point from that article is that
although 11 lives of ejected passengers might have been saved by belts, they would have caused 88 lives to be lost by keeping some passengers in ‘lost survival space
The fact is choices have to be made, and if a minority are placed at greater risk to make a majority safer, then that's the way it has to be.
 

notadriver

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Plus the fastest domestic trains in the country on HS1 are


They aren't really DOO. They are DOD (Driver only Despatch) and an OBM fully trained in HS1 evacuation procedures must be present on every train in passenger service.
 

craigybagel

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I can think of a few what I would consider high speed examples. Kings Cross - Cambridge via the cruiser? Although not DOO Edinburgh - Glasgow where the front 3 is the fare evading heaven.

Plus the fastest domestic trains in the country!

The Cambridge Cruiser is an interesting one. I believe we were lucky that when it did have an incident it occurred at a staffed station, and from what I remember there was a.2nd driver onboard who was able to assist. It'd be interesting to know how things would have panned out had neither been the case, it may well have decided this debate one way or another.

The other two examples always run with two members of staff. The guard of the Edinburgh Glasgow might not be much use for revenue protection, but he will be of more use in an emergency than the patch of empty space that should have been occupied by a Tm on FGW had they not decided they weren't necessary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The fact is choices have to be made, and if a minority are placed at greater risk to make a majority safer, then that's the way it has to be.

Now explain to me if you would be so kind, who's journey is made safer by the removal of the Tm from the train?
 

yorkie

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Now explain to me if you would be so kind, who's journey is made safer by the removal of the Tm from the train?
The journeys are made safer by the implementation of various systems that have to be in place for DOO.

Also, journeys are considerably safer if they are made by rail, rather than by road.

If those against DOO successfully campaigned for it to be banned, rail's costs would increase massively (the majority of rail passenger journeys are on DOO services), but the subsidy would be unlikely to go up to match, meaning some lines or services would become unviable and cease to run, causing modal shift away from rail.

If rail doesn't cut its costs, rather than increase them, it will cease to be viable on some routes.
 

muz379

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No-one wants such a situation, but given the amount of money available is finite, I'd rather it was spent on avoiding such situations from ever arising.

But Is DOO actually going to make any better use of the currently finite amount of money we have .

Taking FGW as that is the relevant example - Every service is going to have a diagrammed TM , So every service will have 2 members of staff restored to it as it is already . The communication from FGW management says they arent going to make any compulsory redundancies so staff numbers wont decrease . The FGW communication also says that Train managers will retain their current pay and conditions .

It also seems common sense to me to suggest that ASLEF will fight for more money for drivers if they are to be taking on more responsability by dispatching the train as well .

I cant see any cost saving .

Now take a TOC like Northern - Every train will most likely have to have a second member of staff on board to assist passengers in wheelchairs on and off the trains .And this person will be the person that is currently the "conductor" , unless they make everyone redundant and rehire them under new T's &C's they will be paid what they currently are . Not to mention for revenue protection purposes . But if the drivers at northern are going to be assuming responsibility for the doors then they will want extra money .

This is without thinking about the possibility that dispatchers might argue for more pay and better condition because they are going to be assuming more responsability when dispatching DOO services .

And you are going to have to increase numbers of dispatchers as I said earlier I can think of half a dozen stations that currently dont have dispatchers that will have to get dispatchers because of curvature of the platform or other visibility issues .

This is before considering the extra delay minutes incurred because drivers might have to deal with things like pulled pascoms or call for aid alarms in toilets .

I can understand people feeling that the compromise in safety in shifting to DOO is an acceptable compromise to make however I really cant actually see the cost argument for it . Unless TOC's plan to run services without a second member of staff(which some wont be able to do) which it appears on this thread is a universally accepted reduction in service nobody wants to see .
 

craigybagel

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The journeys are made safer by the implementation of various systems that have to be in place for DOO.

But the kit is going in anyway. GSMR is still getting installed almost nationwide, as are resignalling schemes, and not just in areas likely to get DOO.

Muz379 has excellently covered the cost angle, but I thought I might also include a link to a country that is increasing the amount of onboard staff, not reducing it.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2015/04/railways-to-take-extra-measures-to-protect-staff/
 

muz379

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The other two examples always run with two members of staff. The guard of the Edinburgh Glasgow might not be much use for revenue protection, but he will be of more use in an emergency than the patch of empty space that should have been occupied by a Tm on FGW had they not decided they weren't necessary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anybody for the smithy bridge fire ? could have been a terrible disaster even with a guard had the train gone up in the tunnel just a few miles ahead or had the passengers started wandering about just as an express was coming past . Would obviously be miles more dangerous a situation without a guard .
 

yorkie

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Muz379 has excellently covered the cost angle, but I thought I might also include a link to a country that is increasing the amount of onboard staff, not reducing it....
FGW is increasing onboard staff, not reducing it.
 

cjmillsnun

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But thats the thing, no one will be unemployed under this plan.

For now. This is always how they creep these things in.

First add the technology that removes the position from being "essential" in the company's eyes, but reassure everyone their job is safe.

Next offer voluntary redundancy (funny how FGW is doing both)

Now when the next round of cost cutting comes in, make these "non essential" workers redundant.
 

craigybagel

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FGW is increasing onboard staff, not reducing it.

And that is to be admired - but they're also trying to make it allowable to run services that currently have a TM as DOO - and that I believe is wrong.
 

yorkie

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And that is to be admired - but they're also trying to make it allowable to run services that currently have a TM as DOO - and that I believe is wrong.
It brings it into line with the majority of journeys experienced by passengers on rail journeys in Britain.

Are we agreed that it's not unsafe, but is undesirable?
 

Carlisle

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They aren't really DOO. They are DOD (Driver only Despatch) and an OBM fully trained in HS1 evacuation procedures must be present on every train in passenger service.

I remember an article in Rail magazine when the Javelins were being introduced where the boss of Southeastern said the rule book for HS1 says it was only mandatory to have a second person for evacuation onboard if operating as a double set (obviously occupying the rear set)
 

The Ham

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I don't believe we're ever going to agree on acceptable risk - but for what its worth I don't think DOO is acceptable risk any where, and I think we've just been lucky so far. I do believe there should be a trained member of staff in every unit, and yes that includes 3X4 car sets. On the rare occasions I get two units together that don't have corridors, I always stay in the back, even though unit hopping is approved at my TOC.

In what circumstances is DOO with a second member of staff (what FGW are proposing, putting aside that it could be possible for there to be only a driver on a very few services) would be less safe than a driver and a guard who was in control of the doors?

Are you also saying that in non corridor connected stock it would be better to have more lower grade staff as then there would be more staff if there was major incident and it would ensure better revenue protection?

I accept that a balance has to be struck here between cost and risk, but I don't believe the savings brought about by permitting DOO on high speed FGW services are worth the risk.

What is the extra risk? Given that there will almost always be two members of staff on board (ignoring any catering staff) on FGW's services.
 

craigybagel

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The extra risks are on the services you are putting aside. It might only be a small amount, and it might not be planned, but FGW are proposing running services that currently have to have a Tm, without a Tm. That is what this thread is about, and that is what I am objecting to.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It brings it into line with the majority of journeys experienced by passengers on rail journeys in Britain.

Are we agreed that it's not unsafe, but is undesirable?

In these circumstances I feel that it is unsafe and undesirable.
 

Kentish Paul

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They aren't really DOO. They are DOD (Driver only Despatch) and an OBM fully trained in HS1 evacuation procedures must be present on every train in passenger service.

Except at St Pancras where there is a despatcher on the Platform. They blow the whistle and give normal CD and RA indications. The OBM playing no part in the despatch.
 

Carlisle

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But the kit is going in anyway. GSMR is still getting installed almost nationwide, as are resignalling schemes, and not just in areas likely to get DOO.
Isn't that the main problem DFT is trying to address here? Compare the overall benefit of the past BR total route modernisation schemes on lines like Kings Lynn,Ayr, Chiltern etc that combined major investment simultaneously with productivity gains from new signalling,new trains, DOO etc with more recent schemes like Cambrian or Portsmouth re signalling that bettered the railway but have produced barely any operating efficiencies or cost savings so far
 
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notadriver

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Except at St Pancras where there is a despatcher on the Platform. They blow the whistle and give normal CD and RA indications. The OBM playing no part in the despatch.


As far as I'm aware the OBMs never play any part in despatch at any point in the journey.
 

Mojo

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Taking FGW as that is the relevant example - Every service is going to have a diagrammed TM , So every service will have 2 members of staff restored to it as it is already.
It's worth pointing out that having a Train Manager diagrammed to work a service does not equate to a named individual being rostered to work it.
 

DDB

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A thought experiment: If a train manager is not available for the last service of the day is it safer to be able to proceed without one or cancel the service and put all the passengers in road coaches / taxis?

As a passenger I want a staff member other than the driver on a train but I want them to be proactive, walking their train, answering queries, being a visible deterrent to antisocial behaviour, selling tickets where appropriate and helping reduce ticketless travel.

New trains should be designed to free them up to do this. i.e. the train should make automatic standard announcements e.g. "the next stop is" and every carriage in the train should have the controls needed for them to make non standard announcements and talk to the driver and operate the doors if necessary.

I expect them to be there for emergencies but I don't want them sat in a rear cab doing nothing waiting for them. Lots of potentially high risk industries have staff whose most important role is public safety (airline cabin crew, theatre ushers) but their safety role although the most important is not used as in excuse to prevent them spending 99% of their time on customer service tasks.

The logical thing seems to me that the driver should open the doors as they know when they have stopped finally as opposed to stopping short to perform a coupling or because they've been flagged down from the platform for some reason. They also have the best knowledge of which platform they are being signalled to and so which side to open the doors. Technology that automatically tells the train where the platform is and prevents the wrong doors being opened is also a good idea.

This also leads to the quickest door release as the driver doesn't have to stop in the middle of a conversation with a customer and fight their way through queuing passengers to get to the controls like the other on train staff would have to.

It then seems logical to me that a person standing on the platform has the best view of when everyone has stopped getting on and off so and is the best person to decide when to shut the doors. So where they are provided this could be a dispatcher signalling the driver but otherwise should be the "person on the train that isn't the driver" stood on the platform and then boarding at their local door once they have seen the rest of the doors have closed.

Finally although I suspect it isn't the case I would like all staff on a train to have the basic knowledge to help in an emergency. I don't mean detailed knowledge of shunting rules to help attach a rescue train I mean knowing where the big red 'stop all trains and alert the signaller there is an emergency button' can be found, knowing the importance of persuading the passengers to stay on the train in almost all circumstances etc. Things that can be taught in an initial weeks training and refreshed in one day a year.

Safety is very important but that means people shouldn't claim things are a safety disaster when they are an industrial dispute as crying wolf over safety is not acceptable.

DDB
 

muz379

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It's worth pointing out that having a Train Manager diagrammed to work a service does not equate to a named individual being rostered to work it.

No thats true , and I suspect if the second member of on board staff is not required ti run the service it wont be long before rest days to cover sickness are done away with . And then rest day working to cover planned annual leave wont be far behind it .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For now. This is always how they creep these things in.

First add the technology that removes the position from being "essential" in the company's eyes, but reassure everyone their job is safe.

Next offer voluntary redundancy (funny how FGW is doing both)

Now when the next round of cost cutting comes in, make these "non essential" workers redundant.
Thats the elephant in the room nobody seems to want to consider . The cost basis for making the guard a non essential member of staff doesn't add up unless you plan to run some services without one .


As a passenger I want a staff member other than the driver on a train but I want them to be proactive, walking their train, answering queries, being a visible deterrent to antisocial behaviour, selling tickets where appropriate and helping reduce ticketless travel.
This is something all guards are expected to do already . The only caveat to that is if you dont feel safe to do so . Its very rare I will decide not to even have a wander through the train without revenue equipment to make sure that the drunks aren't messing with the fire extinguisher or completely wrecking the train

I can see why a female guard who is 5ft2 and of a petite build might feel less safe doing so on a Friday and Saturday night and might remain in the back cab . In the event of DOO the safety argument would not go away and the second member of onboard staff would still not be expected to put themselves in harms way .If anything with DOO if pay and conditions worsen I can see late night services on fri and sat culled at some TOCS or some sort of meathead G4s bouncer policing the trains and providing their own brand of customer service .

I know that how I work doesn't ring true for all guards but that's an issue at local management level not a problem with the role itself .

The only other time I will be in the back cab apart from feeling unsafe is if I dont have revenue equipment due to a failure and Ive had a wander through or if I am making a phone call to control about something concerning the operation of the train - This is usually reporting a fault or ringing ahead to arrange platform staff to have a ramp ready to get a disabled passenger off to reduce delays .
New trains should be designed to free them up to do this. i.e. the train should make automatic standard announcements e.g. "the next stop is" and every carriage in the train should have the controls needed for them to make non standard announcements and talk to the driver and operate the doors if necessary.
Ive already said earlier on the biggest thing that would assist in offering more customer service is the provision of more door control panels . If Im working a 158 I can spend a lot more time with the passengers compared to working a 156 just because I dont have to run the full length of the train everytime I need to release the doors .


The logical thing seems to me that the driver should open the doors as they know when they have stopped finally as opposed to stopping short to perform a coupling or because they've been flagged down from the platform for some reason. They also have the best knowledge of which platform they are being signalled to and so which side to open the doors. Technology that automatically tells the train where the platform is and prevents the wrong doors being opened is also a good idea.
.
However until that time arrives and we have technology that knows what doors to open there is a very real risk with drivers releasing doors of a stop short . In the past 6 months I can recall a handful of incidents when I have been standing by my rear doors waiting to open them at a station and have had to ask the driver to move forward as we are not fully accommodated in the platform . These can happen for a number of reasons . Drivers who have been driving a short train all day who are suddenly driving a longer train are prone to this . It can also happen if there are engineering works which have temporarily altered the platform length and the driver is either not aware or has forgotten .
As for technology that doesn't open doors not accommodated . What about passengers waiting at these doors ? What if in the time it takes them to run through the carriage to a door that is open the doors have been shut and the train is on the move again ? .


Finally although I suspect it isn't the case I would like all staff on a train to have the basic knowledge to help in an emergency. I don't mean detailed knowledge of shunting rules to help attach a rescue train I mean knowing where the big red 'stop all trains and alert the signaller there is an emergency button' can be found, knowing the importance of persuading the passengers to stay on the train in almost all circumstances etc. Things that can be taught in an initial weeks training and refreshed in one day a year.

DDB
The training that gives you the knowledge and skills necessary to deal with an emergency situation takes much longer than a week . To start with you need your traction knowledge so that you where the emergency equipment cupboard is located on each train , and the general layout of the train in case you have to walk through it when it is filled with smoke . Traction training alone took me longer than a week . After this you need training in how to cope in emergency and controlled evacuations we did that over 4 days including some roleplays . And then you need PTS training because you might be stepping out onto a live railway and your employer is required to equip you with the skills necessary to be safe out there . Our PTS course was 4 days ending in an exam followed by another day for a practical assessment . You then need route knowledge in case you are required to carry out an emergency evacuation so that you know about any specific locational risks (OHLE,Third rail, complex junctions with lots of moving pointwork,max permitted speeds and signalling arrangements ) I took 12 weeks to learn all of the routes I operate over . You also need to be assessed on all of the above .

There is no point in just training on board staff for emergencies by telling them to persuade the passenger to stay on the train at all costs because if the carriages are filling up with smoke then you can put money on the passengers reading the instructions for the emergency egress and getting themselves out of there .
 
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HSTEd

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A thought experiment: If a train manager is not available for the last service of the day is it safer to be able to proceed without one or cancel the service and put all the passengers in road coaches / taxis?

Then there will never be any TM available to work that service.
Then there will not be a TM available for the last two services, and so on and so on until there is never a TM rostered to work ever.
 

Aictos

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The logical thing seems to me that the driver should open the doors as they know when they have stopped finally as opposed to stopping short to perform a coupling or because they've been flagged down from the platform for some reason. They also have the best knowledge of which platform they are being signalled to and so which side to open the doors. Technology that automatically tells the train where the platform is and prevents the wrong doors being opened is also a good idea.

This also leads to the quickest door release as the driver doesn't have to stop in the middle of a conversation with a customer and fight their way through queuing passengers to get to the controls like the other on train staff would have to.

It then seems logical to me that a person standing on the platform has the best view of when everyone has stopped getting on and off so and is the best person to decide when to shut the doors. So where they are provided this could be a dispatcher signalling the driver but otherwise should be the "person on the train that isn't the driver" stood on the platform and then boarding at their local door once they have seen the rest of the doors have closed.

DDB

I thought they already had this job highlighted in bold, oh wait they do they're called guards.... :roll:
 
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bunnahabhain

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There is a fine example of a stop board having gone up at a station that is served by one TOC for all but one in each direction. On the down side the 4 car board it short and seems to have been put in place for 20m or shorter vehicles, which has led to a number of trains stopping short! As far as the driver was concerned with me the other day he was quite happy he'd stopped in the right position, meanwhile at the back I was looking down at a footpath running underneath the line.
 

pemma

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Now take a TOC like Northern - Every train will most likely have to have a second member of staff on board to assist passengers in wheelchairs on and off the trains .And this person will be the person that is currently the "conductor" , unless they make everyone redundant and rehire them under new T's &C's they will be paid what they currently are . Not to mention for revenue protection purposes . But if the drivers at northern are going to be assuming responsibility for the doors then they will want extra money . .

The next Northern franchise agreement will talk about Driver Controlled Operation, not Driver Only Operation.

[quote="DfT]Where in accordance with paragraph 18.1, a Passenger Service is operated as
Driver Controlled Operation the Franchisee shall, in preparing the train crew
diagram relating to such Passenger Service plan for an additional Franchise
Employee (that is, in addition to the driver) to be present on such Passenger
Service for the purposes of customer service and/or revenue control, except
where:

[Bidder to populate – Bidder to amend to specify routes/times of
day where DCO would not be operated as required by section [ ]
of the ITT and specified in its bid]
[/quote]
 
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