W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[OxtedL]

Thats the elephant in the room nobody seems to want to consider . The cost basis for making the guard a non essential member of staff doesn't add up unless you plan to run some services without one .

Switching to DOO (with train manager) there is the potential to also cut out a lot of the training/refreshing that guards need on trains, platforms, route knowledge, etc. This is a non-trivial saving and a major operational convenience if you can pull it off.

 

[yorkie]

Plus increased income potentially, if they're able to spend more time collecting revenue, as well as potentially increased patronage as people feel safer when staff are regularly patrolling the trains.

 

[island]

There is a fine example of a stop board having gone up at a station that is served by one TOC for all but one in each direction. On the down side the 4 car board it short and seems to have been put in place for 20m or shorter vehicles, which has led to a number of trains stopping short! As far as the driver was concerned with me the other day he was quite happy he'd stopped in the right position, meanwhile at the back I was looking down at a footpath running underneath the line.

That's a good case against DOO, but only because the station is badly equipped. I presume in this instance it's six bells and wait until you get fully onto the platform?

 

[craigybagel]

Switching to DOO (with train manager) there is the potential to also cut out a lot of the training/refreshing that guards need on trains, platforms, route knowledge, etc. This is a non-trivial saving and a major operational convenience if you can pull it off.

Can't speak for other depots and TOC's but I get one day every 39 weeks for Route Refresh. Not exactly a huge expenditure. It's true some depots will need more and some less, but in the grand scheme of things is it really that huge?

Most Route Knowledge is kept up to date by empty stock/very early morning/very late trips over diversionary routes that are run for both the guard and the driver. You can remove the guards route knowledge, but the driver will still need to keep up their competence some how.....

On the traction side, given that most TM's at FGW only sign 1 traction it shouldn't be too hard to remain competent on that either!

Plus increased income potentially, if they're able to spend more time collecting revenue, as well as potentially increased patronage as people feel safer when staff are regularly patrolling the trains.

But on FGW HSS services how much time really is spent doing doors? I can see the point on local/urban services where stops are frequent, but most of the time that's not the case with the trains we're talking about here.

By the way, nice of you to edit the post where you identified the headcode and train you were travelling on where the guard for whatever reason didn't do revenue, and to delete 455Drivers post where he correctly called you out on it. Any chance of an apology to the guard concerned as well?

 

[yorkie]

By the way, nice of you to edit the post where you identified the headcode and train you were travelling on where the guard for whatever reason didn't do revenue

Edit: OK, I understand there has been some confusion here and thought that was a criticism. To clarify I am absolutely not criticising the Guard nor saying it was unsafe in any way, it was one an example of a train where the Guard did not enter the passenger saloon (see last paragraph below).

and to delete 455Drivers post where he correctly called you out on it.

The only post I deleted he'd already deleted the content, it was blank by the time I read it, but if you want to discuss moderation issues, please contact us via PM. Thank you.

Any chance of an apology to the guard concerned as well?

Apology for what? The fact is, a significant number of trains with Guards I travel on have no appearance from the Guard in the passenger saloons.

Some people seem, if I've understood them correctly, to be arguing that it's not safe if the Guard doesn't walk up and down the train. That's not my argument, and I'm not saying those trains are unsafe. It would be true that revenue would go up on some of those trains though.

 

[RPI]

On the traction side, given that most TM's at FGW only sign 1 traction it shouldn't be too hard to remain competent on that either!

Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance all sign units as well as HST's

But on FGW HSS services how much time really is spent doing doors? I can see the point on local/urban services where stops are frequent, but most of the time that's not the case with the trains we're talking about here.

Have you ever been on an HST through Cornwall or the Cotswolds? Obviously not.

 

[craigybagel]

Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance all sign units as well as HST's

Thanks for that, I didn't know that. I knew that some of the drivers had been integrated but wasn't sure about the guards. However, my point still stands - if TM's were kept on HSS services they wouldn't struggle to keep up their traction competencies

Have you ever been on an HST through Cornwall or the Cotswolds? Obviously not.

Actually I have. Whilst I will admit it's intensive for a HST, ~13 stops in over 2 hours is still nothing compared to suburban stuff. And what percentage of the HSS network is made up of Cornwall services?

Yes, obviously DOO can speed up the dispatch process and free up traincrew for other duties such as revenue protection, but the benefits are still going to be much smaller on InterCity services than on Suburban.

That said, if all they were proposing was to have the drivers do the doors, then that is something I could live with, grudgingly. It's the proposal to potentially run their high speed services with no guard at all that worries me.

 

[Greenback]

That said, if all they were proposing was to have the drivers do the doors, then that is something I could live with, grudgingly. It's the proposal to potentially run their high speed services with no guard at all that worries me.

That's my feeling too, the doors issue isn't so great for me as the issue of not having a guard/TM on board at all.

 

[thelongestroad]

Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance all sign units as well as HST's

At least one of those depots has TMs that only sign HSTs. Some sign both because they're in a mixed traction link and some sign both because they have retained their unit competency after moving onto HSTs from being a conductor.

 

[Robertj21a]

That's my feeling too, the doors issue isn't so great for me as the issue of not having a guard/TM on board at all.

So, after 300+ postings in this thread, the issue comes down to having little really to do with the doors, it's more the lack of a guard/TM on board.

If that's our speed of decision making I hope we never have to make a difficult decision on here !!

 

[Greenback]

So, after 300+ postings in this thread, the issue comes down to having little really to do with the doors, it's more the lack of a guard/TM on board.

If that's our speed of decision making I hope we never have to make a difficult decision on here !!

This isn't a decision making forum, it's a discussion forum. I don't think I've posted much on this thread previously, I'm afraid I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? I'm pretty sure that there are other points of view and that no consensus has been reached.

 

[muz379]

Switching to DOO (with train manager) there is the potential to also cut out a lot of the training/refreshing that guards need on trains, platforms, route knowledge, etc. This is a non-trivial saving and a major operational convenience if you can pull it off.

Depends on what the role is .

If as the second member of staff you are going to have to be involved in evacuating a train in an emergency then you will need training on the layout of the train as well as the location of emergency equipment and other safety features .
And you will need your route knowledge .

And also you cant provide good customer service without refresher training in customer service . As well as briefs and updates on revenue changes .

And TBH route knowledge helps a lot when providing customer service on the railway . especially when things have gone to pot .

The savings that will be made are in not training guards on dispatching or door operation which would save something . But its not going to make much difference because this will be spent on extra training for drivers and wage increases for drivers .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plus increased income potentially, if they're able to spend more time collecting revenue, as well as potentially increased patronage as people feel safer when staff are regularly patrolling the trains.

Personally my experience is that I wouldn't collect much more revenue if I didnt have to do the doors.If anything more door control panels would make it possible to do a lot more revenue and would cost very little compared to the capital that will be required to make DOO possible at my TOC .

There are trains I dont get through because I physically couldn't get through with a ticket machine anyway they are too crowded so even if I didn't have to return to the rear to do my doors I still couldn't do revenue on them .

The trains I choose not to go through are because it would be too dangerous for me too carry out revenue duties . Not going to change even if I dont have to do the doors . Although the TOC might decide that it could revise the policy and expect revenue staff to put themselves in more danger because they are more expendable and not required for the trains to run so if they get lamped they can just be offloaded at a stop and send the driver on his way with the passengers .

The other trains I dont get through consist of non corridor stock coupled together and I am not permitted to unit hop . My toc has recently started employing RPA's to perform revenue duties on the front set . But even if I was on my own and was permitted to unit hop there is always going to be passengers traveling between intermediate stations who get a free ride because there are no booking offices or barriers and I cant get to them .

 

[380gk]

From a Scottish perspective, on train Ticket Examiners are diagrammed for all DO trains aside from trains which terminate at unstaffed locations late at night on the way to depots (eg Garscadden).
It is a franchise commitment to have at least two members of staff on all trains. Failure to do this results in the franchisee facing hefty fines if it fails this on regular government inspections (which can happen at anytime of the day).

Most ticket examiners are diagrammed on DO trains to provide customer service, sell tickets and provide passenger information. There are also ticket examiners who are not diagrammed and assist guards and TEs on busy DO services in peak times.

Trains can run without a ticket examiner. However, due to the fines that the company can face, a heavy recruitment drive has occured for these roles over the last decade or so with that grade and the gateline grade growing significantly in the last few years. To avoid fines through non compliance, spare TEs are rostered.

In recent years the unions and company have introduced safety briefings for staff and now all TEs are shown unit types before working them.they are required to know where the emergency equipment, first sid and wheelchair ramps are before working the train. Also, theyre required to regularly patrol the train and be visible.

Not arguing for or against DO, but it's an interesting conparisson to the DO in the south east which is often no staffing on the train and relying heavily on roving RPIs to tackle fare evasion.

 

[Fincra5]

Plus increased income potentially, if they're able to spend more time collecting revenue, as well as potentially increased patronage as people feel safer when staff are regularly patrolling the trains.

Having full door control at every door would also encourage staff to be visible. Ignoring places with short platforms.

But the guards role isn't just focused on the revenue. that's what people seem to forget. Safety and Dispatch, Customer Service... then revenue.

I feel anything except metro trains shouldn't be DOO.. out in the sticks theres a lot that could go wrong. If the driver is incapacitated during an incident and the train is running without the TM.. then what. Good luck passengers! Its a rare case thankfully but even so.

 

[40129]

I feel anything except metro trains shouldn't be DOO.. out in the sticks theres a lot that could go wrong. If the driver is incapacitated during an incident and the train is running without the TM.. then what. Good luck passengers! Its a rare case thankfully but even so.

Totally agree with this. It is one thing to have DOO on a self contained metro system where staffed stations are in reasonably close proximity, e.g. LU, than on the mainline where such stations are much further apart and the hazards greater

 

[Bletchleyite]

Totally agree with this. It is one thing to have DOO on a self contained metro system where staffed stations are in reasonably close proximity, e.g. LU, than on the mainline where such stations are much further apart and the hazards greater

Yet it is now common in other European countries for rural stopping services serving quiet, unstaffed stations to be DOO. Very common in Germany, and pretty much universal in Switzerland.

 

[muz379]

Totally agree with this. It is one thing to have DOO on a self contained metro system where staffed stations are in reasonably close proximity, e.g. LU, than on the mainline where such stations are much further apart and the hazards greater

Not to mention that on the tube trains are relatively well tracked by operations control as it is so if something untoward did occur it wouldn't be long before the alarm was raised . Meanwhile out in the sticks some of the sections can be huge and even if it becomes apparent something has happened it can take some time to actually find out what .

Having full door control at every door would also encourage staff to be visible. Ignoring places with short platforms.

I feel anything except metro trains shouldn't be DOO.. out in the sticks theres a lot that could go wrong. If the driver is incapacitated during an incident and the train is running without the TM.. then what. Good luck passengers! Its a rare case thankfully but even so.

Ive said multiple times spending the money on installing extra door panels at more doors on the train would assist me in spending more time with the passengers .

I personally think guards on services that stop out in the sticks are some of those with the most secure jobs .One to get passengers in wheelchairs on and off the train with the old ramp and two because there isn't a cat in hells chance all these places are going to get barriers or anything like that .There will still be times that this person will get to sit in their back cab and read their book because once they have sold everyone on board a ticket , and nobody on board needs anymore assistance with anything else what are they supposed to do for 5-10 minutes whilst waiting for the next stop ?

If you dont like that they might be getting paid a decent wage to sit about and read their book from time to time come and do the job and see if you still think its a cushy job at 01:00 on a Saturday morning when some pillock who has boarded the wrong train is shouting at you because his wife wont come and pick him up and so he has decided to barricade himself in one of the doors so you cant close them until you make the train magically teleport to where he wants to be . Knowing that your booked taxi back to base has gone without you and you face a 45 minute wait for a replacement taxi . All the while the btp are 15 miles away dealing with a load of other drunk pillocks so your call is in a queue waiting for some attention .

 

[yorkie]

Fincra5, 40129 - So would you both not travel on HS1 services, as that's a similar concept to what FGW are introducing? What about the Strathclyde electric trains that go out in the sticks? Are these unsafe?

Or do you agree that, while not ideal, it's actually quite safe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...Meanwhile out in the sticks some of the sections can be huge ...

Ashford to Ebbsfleet is 33 miles.

 

[RPI]

At least one of those depots has TMs that only sign HSTs. Some sign both because they're in a mixed traction link and some sign both because they have retained their unit competency after moving onto HSTs from being a conductor.

Every TM at Plymouth, Penzance and Exeter sign units as far as I'm aware everyone at Bristol does also

 

[lonogrol]

Not to mention that on the tube trains are relatively well tracked by operations control as it is so if something untoward did occur it wouldn't be long before the alarm was raised

I've no idea what "operations control" is (it's not a term I've heard in my time working for L.U.L.) but the Service Controllers on all lines cannot see the location of trains.

On the Circle, H&C, District or Met lines Service Controllers have no guaranteed way to see any of their trains. The information-only system (called TrackerNet) which they do rely on always has trains running that do not exist in reality, and trains running in reality that do not exist on the system. It will also show wrong (or non-existent) train numbers or train descriptions.

In addition to the limitations of this system, trains also vanish into a black hole between High St Ken & Paddington (City), Hammersmith & Paddington (Suburban), Whitechapel & Bromley by Bow, Upney & Dagenham East and in the Elm Park and Chorleywood area, and are not visible at all except (when it decides to work) the train number comes up depending on which radio cell it is present in.

 

[muz379]

I've no idea what "operations control" is (it's not a term I've heard in my time working for L.U.L.) but the Service Controllers on all lines cannot see the location of trains.

I was merely using a term to describe someone who is overseeing the operation of the service to make it relevant to all tocs for comparative purposes . The service controllers might not be able to see the location of the trains but what about the signalers or the line controllers ?

Fincra5, 40129 - So would you both not travel on HS1 services, as that's a similar concept to what FGW are introducing? What about the Strathclyde electric trains that go out in the sticks? Are these unsafe?

Or do you agree that, while not ideal, it's actually quite safe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ashford to Ebbsfleet is 33 miles.

Yes but my understanding was that trains in passengers service on HS1 have to carry an OBM that is trained in evacuation procedures so should the worst happen in that 33 mile long section there is someone else there who at least has an idea of what to do .

FGW is proposing that a train could be allowed to run without a second member of on board staff trained in those procedures and that's where I think the real sticking point will come .

 

[lonogrol]

I was merely using a term to describe someone who is overseeing the operation of the service to make it relevant to all tocs for comparative purposes . The service controllers might not be able to see the location of the trains but what about the signalers or the line controllers ?

Line Controller/Service Controller ... they are all the same thing (Service Controller is the official job title).

Service Operators (a.k.a. Signal Operators a.k.a. the Signal Man) can see the location of trains, but only in controlled areas, and all of the black spots I previously mentioned are not controlled areas. Staff operating the signals do not have the same kind of importance on L.U.L. as they do on (ex-)B.R. lines, any incident you always speak to the old man first.

 

[Carlisle]

Yet it is now common in other European countries for rural stopping services serving quiet, unstaffed stations to be DOO. Very common in Germany, and pretty much universal in Switzerland.

The same is true on Irish Rail except Dublin to Belfast and Cork

 

[island]

Dublin to Cork is DOO with on board train manager.

 

[Carlisle]

Dublin to Cork is DOO with on board train manager.

Ok thanks for correcting that one

 

[thelongestroad]

Every TM at Plymouth, Penzance and Exeter sign units as far as I'm aware everyone at Bristol does also

Bristol is one of the places where some sign both, either because they are in a mixed traction link or they have retained their unit competency after transferring from conductor.

There are many train managers (probably a majority) that don't sign units though.

 

[yorkie]

Yes but my understanding was that trains in passengers service on HS1 have to carry an OBM that is trained in evacuation procedures so should the worst happen in that 33 mile long section there is someone else there who at least has an idea of what to do .

So, are we agreed that it's an acceptable solution, and not unsafe, for trains to be driver only operated (DOO) provbiding there's a member of staff on board to do customer service stuff and who is trained in evacuation procedures?

I know you don't think it's ideal, and I know you don't want it, and I understand and respect that, but we're agreed it's not unsafe, right?

 

[Fincra5]

Fincra5, 40129 - So would you both not travel on HS1 services, as that's a similar concept to what FGW are introducing? What about the Strathclyde electric trains that go out in the sticks? Are these unsafe?

Or do you agree that, while not ideal, it's actually quite safe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ashford to Ebbsfleet is 33 miles.

As stated HS1 SE trains run with an OBM and not DOO, they are DOD. I don't believe they can run DOO. I could be wrong there... But that was my understanding.

IMO Strathcylde electrics are more metro style with lots of stations and highish frequency.

But Yorkie, although generally not unsafe.. would you like to be stuck on an IEP somewhere in Somerset, with no near station etc, etc. And no member of staff to assist you. Thats my point.

 

[craigybagel]

The same is true on Irish Rail except Dublin to Belfast and Cork

I'd be wary of ever using Irish Rail as an example of best practice mind......

 

[Sprinter153]

Bristol is one of the places where some sign both, either because they are in a mixed traction link or they have retained their unit competency after transferring from conductor.

There are many train managers (probably a majority) that don't sign units though.

Paddington TMs sign Class 180 and Reading TMs sign Class 150/0, Class 165/6 and Class 180 for Gatwick/Basingstoke/Cotswolds services.