West Yorkshire.... Common Sense???

[yorkie]

HHF did take a while to learn how to use the RG to be fair

I wouldn't say it is "simple" to use. Well, only in ATOC's definition of "simple" and we all know how complicated that is!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I can't disagree with that! When someone posts here asking for advice and within a very short space of time calls people trolls and moaning over 50p, alarm bells start ringing.

reb0118 - If that's the shortest available route, I'd say yes. If it's just infrequent on a Sunday then, no.

Infrequency isn't an excuse to go via an invalid route (but if you ask a guard nicely they may show discretion).

uksweet - I don't think the Routeing Guide is the best of documents to use, but at least it's not kept secret and is available for free (the restriction codes for off-peak tickets are another matter...!), but really this is a journey of 29 miles via Leeds compared to 9 direct and 15 via the shortest available train. I don't see how the RG is at fault here.


This isn't a routeing issue; it's a frequency issue.

Northern do not decide on frequency. It will be decided by West Yorkshire PTE. A higher frequency means charging more taxes, something I'd support but many car owners wouldn't.

Then why the Chuff are there hundreds of posts asking about valid routes?

Or are You just calling them Thick?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And I presume you know roughly what you are doing. If you are an infrequent rail traveller, this is likely to deter you rather than encourage, in the same way that the plethora of restrictions on fares does. There is a different way of doing things via network theory that would take the burden off the customer while ensuring fairness for providers. But it would take a lot of groundwork.

Absolutely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't wish to get into an argument but I do find your attitude somewhat irritating.

The local train services in West Yorkshire are mainly subsidised by Metro, ie West Yorkshire Tax Payers. The level of service provided is generally good, and is no doubt about right for level of traffic on offer or the amount of revenue available. There are many parts of the country which have no Sunday service at all.

Just because the timetable on offer does not meet your needs does not mean there is anything drastically wrong with it. Nor does it mean you can go whereever you want with whatever ticket you want. To compare with buses in your area, someone who didn't have a free travel pass couldn't buy a First Day ticket which is only valid on First Buses, then decide to use it on a service offered by Centrebus just because they didn't like the times or couldn't be bothered to wait for a First Bus. The timetables are published for a reason.

And on the subject of Manchester there are many routes which, by comparison, have a far lower quality of service than West Yorkshire.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No, the clerk does not have an attitude problem, I think you do. The Clerk appears to have done their job and has given you the correct information as to where and when your ticket is valid. Just because you do not like the information you are given does not mean they have an attitude problem.

Would You like to explain the problem, or obviously You wouldn't as Northern arev Perfect, and never have ever done anything wrong, all their Staff are saints and are never rude about coustomers....

That's why I said for another time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Then why the Chuff are there hundreds of posts asking about valid routes?

Or are You just calling them Thick?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Absolutely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Would You like to explain the problem, or obviously You wouldn't as Northern arev Perfect, and never have ever done anything wrong, all their Staff are saints and are never rude about coustomers....

That's why I said for another time.

Well, I know You need a degree in Astro Physics, but if I'm reading the Map LY, I was correct....

But then My degree is in Computer Science, so I'm probably wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
"Just because the timetable on offer does not meet your needs does not mean there is anything drastically wrong with it."

Erm, that would passably be the concise dictionary definition.

 

[MikeWh]

... but if I'm reading the Map LY, I was correct....

But then My degree is in Computer Science, so I'm probably wrong.

Why would you be reading map LY?

Halifax is a member of Halifax routeing group.
Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield routeing group.
The only map for routes between Halifax group and Huddersfield group is SY.
Map SY only permits travel direct between the two groups.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Why would you be reading map LY?

Halifax is a member of Halifax routeing group.
Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield routeing group.
The only map for routes between Halifax group and Huddersfield group is SY.
Map SY only permits travel direct between the two groups.

And where is Mirfield even on any line on the SY map?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I imagine there is nothing clearer than telling somebody the restriction, in person.
But, when they actually do that, they are 'jobsworths'?

Personally, I think that for 'Any Permitted' tickets then the quickest route should also be valid, as well as the shortest route. You could disallow break of journey if it causes major fare anomolies.

Now THAT is Very sensible.

 

[90019]

Would You like to explain the problem, or obviously You wouldn't as Northern arev Perfect, and never have ever done anything wrong, all their Staff are saints and are never rude about coustomers....

I think this shows quite clearly who has the attitude problem in this case.

 

[MikeWh]

And where is Mirfield even on any line on the SY map?

Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield group. The blob on the map marked Huddersfield represents all stations within the group.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I think this shows quite clearly who has the attitude problem in this case.

So, A member of Staff, who after selling You a ticket, THEN, tells You the journey You wish to make is not possible, and refuses to give You a refund as You decided not to make said Journey, without even leaving the Ticket Window han Noooooooo Atitude problem?


Get back under Your Rickety Bridge.

 

[MikeWh]

So, A member of Staff, who after selling You a ticket, THEN, tells You the journey You wish to make is not possible, and refuses to give You a refund as You decided not to make said Journey, without even leaving the Ticket Window han Noooooooo Atitude problem?

You haven't said any of that before. If true then the member of staff does have a problem because I'm sure he should provide an immediate refund in the circumstances you outline. However, if you used language like

Get back under Your Rickety Bridge.

at him then I can see why he might have decided to be less than helpful. You really really really do have a huge attitude problem.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You haven't said any of that before. If true then the member of staff does have a problem because I'm sure he should provide an immediate refund in the circumstances you outline. However, if you used language like at him then I can see why he might have decided to be less than helpful. You really really really do have a huge attitude problem.

No, the People who have an attitude problem, making assumtions, whithout knowing any of the facts.

I know You are trying to defend a Company, who are widely known for their Loony Routing, like Leeds York valid Via Harrogate, and Middlesbrough Carlisle Via Leeds. both routes that would NEVER be quicker, and very much longer.

I mearly pointed out somthing that would be sensible to most People on this Forum.

To make it clearer, if I went from Mirfield to Halifax, via Huddersfield on Sunday, the wait at Huddersfield is 1Hr 58Min, as the train to Halifax, leaves 2 Min before the Mirfield Huddersfield Arrives, every Two Hours.

A journey that is considered worth while in having a through Train the other six Days a Week.

No sane person on the planet would find that acceptable.

It's a 35 Min Journey, with a 2 Hour Gap in the Middle.

As aposed to a 55 Min Journey, with a 20 Min Gap.

Longer, but Quicker, Like a Motorway (As the Northern Chap Said).

And most people agree that 99 out of 100 Conductors wouldn't give a hoot.

That makes the 1 left a Jobsworth in My book. We were given free will by God, and those who fallow orders blindly, end-up falling off the Cliff.

All I did was ask for My Money back, no "Language" was used, all I got from HER, was "I don't run the Trains"

Not much help, when She's in a Northern Ticket Office, on a Northern Station, Wareing a Northen Uniform, selling a Ticket for a Northern Train.....

So, nowt to do with Northern then?

Sombody with less of a problem talking to the people who pay Her wages, may have sugested a comment or compaint form, instead of denying the bleedin' obvious.

 

[yorkie]

Then why the Chuff are there hundreds of posts asking about valid routes?

Or are You just calling them Thick?

Did you read what I posted?! I said " I don't think the Routeing Guide is the best of documents to use", how is this calling people who find it difficult to use "thick"? I would never say, or suggest, such a thing!

Would You like to explain the problem, or obviously You wouldn't as Northern arev Perfect, and never have ever done anything wrong, all their Staff are saints and are never rude about coustomers....

That's why I said for another time.

If you actually read kwvr45's posts, you will discover that he does not believe Northern are "perfect", and has never said or suggested any of the things you are attributing to him. Did you actually read what he said about a report he provided which Northern disregarded?

Well, I know You need a degree in Astro Physics, but if I'm reading the Map LY, I was correct....

But then My degree is in Computer Science, so I'm probably wrong.

The routeing guide is complicated, but you don't have to read it, you can ask National Rail Enquiries or enquire at a ticket office. Admittedly you won't always got a correct answer, and you won't always get the answer you like either.

If the RG didn't exist, and we wen't back to 'reasonable' routes, this route would not be considered 'reasonable' by most guards and ticket clerks, so you'd be no better off.

You can't blame the RG for the fact you can't do a 29 mile journey for the price of a 9-15 mile journey.

You had the option to pay £1 for the journey via Leeds, or wait a couple of hours until the next train via the accepted route for 50p. Many people do not have such a choice. Yes, the service could be more frequent, so campaign to your MP for a tax rise to fund rail improvements or to divert money from road schemes to rail. I'd support that, but many others wouldn't.

So, A member of Staff, who after selling You a ticket, THEN, tells You the journey You wish to make is not possible, and refuses to give You a refund as You decided not to make said Journey, without even leaving the Ticket Window han Noooooooo Atitude problem?.

You didn't tell us that.

Get back under Your Rickety Bridge.

There's no need for that. Do you want help from this site or not?

I know You are trying to defend a Company, who are widely known for their Loony Routing, like Leeds York valid Via Harrogate, and Middlesbrough Carlisle Via Leeds. both routes that would NEVER be quicker, and very much longer.

If you are referring to Northern, it's ATOC who set the rules.

Leeds to York via Harrogate is entirely sensible; it's a direct train. It can never be barred on a York to Leeds ticket. The lack of a RP between Leeds and York via Harrogate also makes any ticket that has validity between Leeds and York valid via Harrogate. There are no anomalies here. You are wanting to go via Leeds which, you can expect to carry a premium for. The same hardly applies at Harrogate!

As for Middlesbrough to Carlisle, this isn't Northern's choice, and the distance is less than double the shortest route. In your case of wanting to go via Leeds, the distance is triple. Yes, some long routes and anomalies exist in the RG, and I can understand that you are disappointed that your particular journey doesn't have one of them, but that's just the way it is - accept it.

...All I did was ask for My Money back, no "Language" was used, all I got from HER, was "I don't run the Trains"

Not much help, when She's in a Northern Ticket Office, on a Northern Station, Wareing a Northen Uniform, selling a Ticket for a Northern Train.....

So, nowt to do with Northern then?

Sombody with less of a problem talking to the people who pay Her wages, may have sugested a comment or compaint form, instead of denying the bleedin' obvious.

OK, now I realise you opted not to travel, as when you were sold the ticket you were then informed of the rather long journey. You didn't make this clear earlier. I believe the member of staff should have given you a refund in such a case.

You can't have a go at us over this issue, when you never presented it to us in the first place.

If you had posted a reasonable post detailing all the problems, I would have advised you to send the original ticket to Northern asking for a refund and asking why you were not given a refund in the first place. However I suspect that you may have irritated the clerk to such an extent that they decided to be awkward, I suspect this based on the tone in your posts here. The clerk should be above that, but we're all only human...

 

[90019]

There's no need for that. Do you want help from this site or not?

It doesn't look like it, I think he just wants to complain about it, and won't accept any other point of view.

 

[bnm]

Of course uksweet could get a refund of his 50p fare (:roll if he decided not to travel, but as there were no delays to the service that he didn't want to take then I'd've charged him the £10 admin fee!

 

[yorkie]

Of course uksweet could get a refund of his 50p fare (:roll if he decided not to travel, but as there were no delays to the service that he didn't want to take then I'd've charged him the £10 admin fee!

To be honest, it's debatable, it depends how the conversation went. e.g. "Return to Huddersfield please" "50p, sir" (hands over 50p) "Oh, by the way Sir, you have to wait ages for the next train, then have a 2 hour wait in Huddersfield...." it would then be reasonable to offer a refund. However, the tone of uksweet's posts here suggest that the conversation may have gone in a direction that made the clerk rather less willing to issue a refund....

Given that I know people who travel round on W Yorks Day Rangers to random places, it's tempting to ask one of them to make 'enquiries' about this incident, as I suspect it would be rather interesting to hear it from the clerk's view...

I think I'll send a PM...

 

[fgwoll1e]

uksweet - you need to remember that a ticket clerk CANNOT tell you to get on a train with an invalid ticket - it isn't their place - as has been mentioned already - ask the guard. It is not helping anyone with the attitude you currently have - as nobody will really be inclined to help you.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

uksweet, perhaps you would like to give us a word for word account of what happened, then we can stop 'making assumptions'. We can only make assumptions based on what is written here.

The impression you gave is that the clerk was acting properly and you weren't happy with the rules. Now if that is wrong then fine, tell us what happened.

You can't expect to have a moan about something, leaving out half the story, and have a balanced discussion about it.

It is at the clerks discretion to non-issue the ticket, a refund would have cost you £4.50! (50p - £5 admin fee) unless it is .

HHF did take a while to learn how to use the RG to be fair ....

If you're refering to when I first came onto this forum, then I think you know that the online Routeing Guide was not the one staff were supposed to use at the time. Infact I didn't know the online version existed until I came on this forum. No instruction had been given to use the online guide until well after the FRPP appeared.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

[/COLOR]

Did you read what I posted?! I said " I don't think the Routeing Guide is the best of documents to use", how is this calling people who find it difficult to use "thick"? I would never say, or suggest, such a thing!

So "Normal People" then, can't use it, so therefore, not much use to the occasional passenger.



If you actually read kwvr45's posts, you will discover that he does not believe Northern are "perfect", and has never said or suggested any of the things you are attributing to him. Did you actually read what he said about a report he provided which Northern disregarded?

So, I'm Right again about Northern


The routeing guide is complicated, but you don't have to read it, you can ask National Rail Enquiries or enquire at a ticket office. Admittedly you won't always got a correct answer, and you won't always get the answer you like either.

What's the point? You said "won't always got a correct answer" well I think that also proves My point.

If the RG didn't exist, and we wen't back to 'reasonable' routes, this route would not be considered 'reasonable' by most guards and ticket clerks, so you'd be no better off.

Well, from the posts here, Most would acctually be happy to allow it, so wrong again.

You can't blame the RG for the fact you can't do a 29 mile journey for the price of a 9-15 mile journey.

You had the option to pay £1 for the journey via Leeds, or wait a couple of hours until the next train via the accepted route for 50p. Many people do not have such a choice. Yes, the service could be more frequent, so campaign to your MP for a tax rise to fund rail improvements or to divert money from road schemes to rail. I'd support that, but many others wouldn't.

As I said the 50p / £1 dosn't have anything whatsoever to do with it, any Passenger would have the same problem of paying doubble or more.

You didn't tell us that.

That's why I said "thats for another time".


There's no need for that. Do you want help from this site or not?

I was making an observation, I never asked at any time for assistance in the matter.... So, in this instance NO, I Don't.


If you are referring to Northern, it's ATOC who set the rules.

Well, again, when I asked Northern, they said it was themselves, not ATOC, so, on or the other is wrong. "won't always got a correct answer" is True here too.

Leeds to York via Harrogate is entirely sensible; it's a direct train. It can never be barred on a York to Leeds ticket. The lack of a RP between Leeds and York via Harrogate also makes any ticket that has validity between Leeds and York valid via Harrogate. There are no anomalies here. You are wanting to go via Leeds which, you can expect to carry a premium for. The same hardly applies at Harrogate!

Rubbish again There's a direct Train between Wakefield and Leeds, Via Mirfield, Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford and New Pudsey. are You trying to tell Me that is the same fair?

If not, then Your theory about York - Leeds via Harrogate is wrong too.

As for Middlesbrough to Carlisle, this isn't Northern's choice, and the distance is less than double the shortest route. In your case of wanting to go via Leeds, the distance is triple.

Stop making it up. It's not Tripple, its not even double.

Your trying to compare journeys possible on Weekdays with those possible on Sundays.

Even if it was, My way, on a Sunday, is considdered reasonable by practicaly everybody.

I'm not doing it any Day but Sunday, 'cos of the pathetic freqency on some very well used routes. Why else would there be a Hourly weekday through Train. This is a massive difference in journey oportunities.

Yes, some long routes and anomalies exist in the RG, and I can understand that you are disappointed that your particular journey doesn't have one of them, but that's just the way it is - accept it.


OK, now I realise you opted not to travel, as when you were sold the ticket you were then informed of the rather long journey. No, I was aware of the longer journey, and that it was also Quicker.

You didn't make this clear earlier. I believe the member of staff should have given you a refund in such a case.

Well, somtimes Women are unpredictable.

I notice You didn't mention the "Northern Ticket Office, on a Northern Station, Wareing a Northen Uniform, selling a Ticket for a Northern Train.....

So, nowt to do with Northern then?

You can't have a go at us over this issue, when you never presented it to us in the first place.

I said "for another time". You jumped to the conclusion, whithout the evidence.

If you had posted a reasonable post detailing all the problems, I would have advised you to send the original ticket to Northern asking for a refund and asking why you were not given a refund in the first place. However I suspect that you may have irritated the clerk to such an extent that they decided to be awkward, I suspect this based on the tone in your posts here. The clerk should be above that, but we're all only human...

But some of Us are less human than others apparently, as a member of the public with a sensable sugestion is wrong.

 

[cuccir]

Well, somtimes Women are unpredictable.

Wait, what? You really posted that? Surely that's grounds for closing the thread and ending this discussion.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

[/COLOR]

But some of Us are less human than others apparently, as a member of the public with a sensable sugestion is wrong.

Had you had a row with the bus driver earlier in the day to prevent you returning that way?
You would have saved 50p as well.

 

[dan_atki]

Did you read what I posted?! I said " I don't think the Routeing Guide is the best of documents to use", how is this calling people who find it difficult to use "thick"? I would never say, or suggest, such a thing!

So "Normal People" then, can't use it, so therefore, not much use to the occasional passenger.

The Routeing Guide is considered to be a technical document. It is not something you can read once and completely understand - many of the people on this forum who are familiar with it through helping several others are still finding things out they never knew.

Granted, it isn't the best document out there and it could be argued that some of it is not fit for purpose, but at the end of the day it is the document that forms part of the contract when you purchase a ticket so you either have to live with it or lobby ATOC to make it better (and live with it in the meantime).

As I said, it is a technical document so is difficult for the inexperienced to understand. As time goes on, though, and experience increases then you become better at using it. Allow me to take another crude example as an analogy - a service manual for a car. Again, a technical document that I certainly would not understand at all the first time I opened it. With guidance, however, I would begin to learn and, before long, I would be able to use the service manual competently by myself.

On another note, your attitude towards other members who are simply trying to help is slightly off and I ask that you reconsider the tone of your posts and not resort to name calling (even implicitly) as this is against the forum's rules.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think this shows quite clearly who has the attitude problem in this case.

Agreed.

. . . closing the thread and ending this discussion.

Also agreed.

There's a lot of valuable assistance on this forum and there's constructive and informed debate over issues that can sometimes have an impact on very many rail travellers and personnel.
This thread is neither.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Had you had a row with the bus driver earlier in the day to prevent you returning that way?
You would have saved 50p as well.

Another One Who Knows nothing making a comment.
OAP's Don't pay enything for Bus Travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wait, what? You really posted that? Surely that's grounds for closing the thread and ending this discussion.

Women are ALLWAYS Preditcable????
Well, if not, then the Comment is Corect!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed.Also agreed.

There's a lot of valuable assistance on this forum and there's constructive and informed debate over issues that can sometimes have an impact on very many rail travellers and personnel.
This thread is neither.

Yes it does, it shows Northern are Happy to have totally unreasonable routes as valid, but not reasonable and quicker.

So very useful.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Another One Who Knows nothing making a comment.
OAP's Don't pay enything for Bus Travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


[

1.I know all I need to know about you. I think most reading this would concur.

2. You were wanting to spend 50p on a train fare. You would have spent 0p on the bus. Saving of 50p.

Oh, and by the way, it is not OAP's that get the buses for free, it is people over 60 years of age. Subtle difference.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

1.I know all I need to know about you. I think most reading this would concur.

2. You were wanting to spend 50p on a train fare. You would have spent 0p on the bus. Saving of 50p.

Oh, and by the way, it is not OAP's that get the buses for free, it is people over 60 years of age. Subtle difference.

Sorry Wrong again:

•for women the eligible age is pensionable age
•for men the eligible age is the pensionable age of a woman born on the same day

So Old Age Pensioners.

As I said the 50p / £1 is irrelevent.

Anybody would be expected to pay Doubble or More.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Sorry Wrong again:

•for women the eligible age is pensionable age
•for men the eligible age is the pensionable age of a woman born on the same day

So Old Age Pensioners.

As I said the 50p / £1 is irrelevent.

Anybody would be expected to pay Doubble or More.

So some of the men are not OAP's then.

 

[Greenback]

Agreed.Also agreed.

There's a lot of valuable assistance on this forum and there's constructive and informed debate over issues that can sometimes have an impact on very many rail travellers and personnel.
This thread is neither.

I agree. What could have been an interesting and useful debate about Sunday services, and the possibility of alternative routes on Sundays only, has been ruined by the aggressive, confrontational and arrogant nature of the OP's posts.

1.I know all I need to know about you. I think most reading this would concur.

I agree.

So some of the men are not OAP's then.

Evidently. It's not just senior citizens that are eligible for free bus travel, in Wales at least, as people who are unable to drive for medical reasons are also entitled.

 

[90019]

Wait, what? You really posted that? Surely that's grounds for closing the thread and ending this discussion.

I agree, especially since he says this;

I was making an observation, I never asked at any time for assistance in the matter.... So, in this instance NO, I Don't.

He doesn't want any help from us, it's just to complain, so I personally think the thread should be locked.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree. What could have been an interesting and useful debate about Sunday services, and the possibility of alternative routes on Sundays only, has been ruined by the aggressive, confrontational and arrogant nature of the OP's posts.

The OP is clearly not interested in that sort of discussion, only in complaining about things that don't suit him.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Before this thread is locked then.

Anyone wanting to get from Halifax to Mirfield (or Dewsbury) on a Sunday, my advice would be to take the short walk to Halifax Bus Station and take the 278 service (hourly from 09.15 until 18.15 then 19.30).

Takes 43 mins.

Now THAT is Common Sense

Regards

SB

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I agree. What could have been an interesting and useful debate about Sunday services, and the possibility of alternative routes on Sundays only, has been ruined by the aggressive, confrontational and arrogant nature of the OP's posts.


I agree.



Evidently. It's not just senior citizens that are eligible for free bus travel, in Wales at least, as people who are unable to drive for medical reasons are also entitled.

The only People defending this Stupid situation are almost entirly, "Industry Insiders" protecting themselves from a sensible and widly acepted sugestion.

How about reading the Papers comment sections about People being fined for leaving stations before the Stated Ticked Destinations.

The People of this Country are sick of being Lied to.

There is precious Little Compatition.

Fairs are set in the main by a centrally managed system that would be Illigal in any other Industry. Imaging if Arriva and First Bus Companys started to fix fairs between them....

The People are sick of Industry Spokesmen and Women Patronising the Passengers.

THAT is all I have had Rail Employees Paronising the Public.

It matters not how much I have or havenot paid. If You can't understand that just following orders that are not sensible is Stupid.

Northern Staff DO run the Trains, the Public DON'T.

So Staff with an attitude are in the Wrong when they say problems are nothing to do with them.

They may not be responsible for the particular incident, but they are there to help. A situation the traveling Public is to far aware of, and management in denial.

 

[Greenback]

Using capital letters does not make your arguments any stronger, nor your posts any more persuasive.

Start a campaign for truth and justice if you like. I am sure the Daily Mail will be glad to have you on board. I, for one, am not interested in discussing anyone who does not respect the views of others.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Using capital letters does not make your arguments any stronger, nor your posts any more persuasive.

Start a campaign for truth and justice if you like. I am sure the Daily Mail will be glad to have you on board. I, for one, am not interested in discussing anyone who does not respect the views of others.

What TOC do You own then, so I can use My democratic right to Aviod it?