We've got the Key, it's no secret... (Smartcards on GTR)

[talldave]

I doubt Govia even know the answer to that question. The whole thing is a shambles.

My card has no photo, but then I never gave any indication that I was going to put a season ticket on it. I stupidly thought they'd support daily travelcards! I discovered on my first trip that it's useless in a "tickets are being accepted on local buses" situation and never used it again.

 

[jon0844]

I'll keep saying it; something as important as this should have been managed by the DfT, not individual TOCs - especially when there appears to be no sense of urgency to do anything. Take the bodge on enabling the Key at GN stations, which did meet the deadline but doesn't offer half of the services that people expected (day tickets, day travelcards, pay as you go).

The lack of any equipment at ticket offices, meaning you use the TVMs or do it online, shows there's no interest and we won't see more action unless there's another deadline to meet, or a chance of punishment for not doing so.

We could have had one particular route, operated by one TOC, doing a trial but with the aim to then go national by a certain date. The only thing each TOC would have done would have been issue cards that could have had their own artwork (while also including a logo that would be common on all).

Clearly having a way to identify the card user as being the correct person would have been part of this. Unless the plan is to let people share their season tickets around?

 

[billc.cn]

I'll keep saying it; something as important as this should have been managed by the DfT, not individual TOCs - especially when there appears to be no sense of urgency to do anything. Take the bodge on enabling the Key at GN stations, which did meet the deadline but doesn't offer half of the services that people expected (day tickets, day travelcards, pay as you go).

The lack of any equipment at ticket offices, meaning you use the TVMs or do it online, shows there's no interest and we won't see more action unless there's another deadline to meet, or a chance of punishment for not doing so.

We could have had one particular route, operated by one TOC, doing a trial but with the aim to then go national by a certain date. The only thing each TOC would have done would have been issue cards that could have had their own artwork (while also including a logo that would be common on all).

Clearly having a way to identify the card user as being the correct person would have been part of this. Unless the plan is to let people share their season tickets around?

The card does store the holder's name (also printed on the front) and the DOB, which I hope is enough info for the revenue protection people to verify the identity with the help of any photo ID.

Agree absolutely on the deadlines though. GTR have not done anything for their customers apart from things outlined in the franchise agreement.

 

[Hadders]

The card does store the holder's name (also printed on the front) and the DOB, which I hope is enough info for the revenue protection people to verify the identity with the help of any photo ID.

Agree absolutely on the deadlines though. GTR have not done anything for their customers apart from things outlined in the franchise agreement.

Are you saying that it should be necessary to carry some other form of photo ID (not railway related) when travelling? If so that is concerning and unacceptable.

I agree smartcards should be a nationally driven thing. One problem of allowing operators to do their own thing is that we will lose through ticketing.

 

[Stats]

Are you saying that it should be necessary to carry some other form of photo ID (not railway related) when travelling? If so that is concerning and unacceptable.

It is necessary to carry some form of photo ID if travelling on certain tickets as required by the NRCOC.

15. Photocards
Some types of tickets (including many Season Tickets, tickets bought with a Railcard and Electronic Tickets) are only valid with either:
(a) a photocard showing a photograph which is a true likeness of the person for whom the ticket was issued; or
(b) another form of personal identification.

Details of this requirement, and the tickets to which it applies, are available where the relevant tickets are sold. If the use of a Season Ticket or Railcard requires you to carry a photocard, the Season Ticket (unless it is an Electronic Ticket) or Railcard must show the photocard serial number.

 

[Hadders]

It is necessary to carry some form of photo ID if travelling on certain tickets as required by the NRCOC.

I agree that a photo card is required by many rail season tickets (I am a season ticket holder myself).

The post from bills.cn suggests that some other form of photo ID might be required (non rail related) with a season ticket on a smartcard. This would be unacceptable IMO.

 

[plcd1]

I'll keep saying it; something as important as this should have been managed by the DfT, not individual TOCs - especially when there appears to be no sense of urgency to do anything. Take the bodge on enabling the Key at GN stations, which did meet the deadline but doesn't offer half of the services that people expected (day tickets, day travelcards, pay as you go).

The lack of any equipment at ticket offices, meaning you use the TVMs or do it online, shows there's no interest and we won't see more action unless there's another deadline to meet, or a chance of punishment for not doing so.

We could have had one particular route, operated by one TOC, doing a trial but with the aim to then go national by a certain date. The only thing each TOC would have done would have been issue cards that could have had their own artwork (while also including a logo that would be common on all).

Clearly having a way to identify the card user as being the correct person would have been part of this. Unless the plan is to let people share their season tickets around?

Why do you imagine the DfT would do any better? Surely they wrote the lax and poorly defined franchise requirement in the TSGN franchise that means Govia have seemingly done the bare minimum for smartcards to be "accepted" even if it's nigh on impossible to get hold of one, add a ticket to it or for staff to offer anything resembling customer service?

I only dip in and out of this thread every so often so haven't read every last detail but things certainly look very messy. I don't think the DfT have any sort of real strategy around ITSO ticketing other than "get it out there and hope for the best". It's another example of Chancellor Osborne's obsession with "infrastructure" and not caring about how it works / what it costs once it's there. The same flawed logic can be seen in him supporting rail and tube investment projects and then scrapping revenue grants / screwing down the money to run services in franchises. He just assumes users will cough up enough money. I think he's going to be found out in the not too distant future.

The fact the costs for SEFT have ballooned badly and there is next to no transparency about progress, scope, objectives etc from the DfT or the SEFT project says it all. There have been bits and bobs in "ITSO News" from ITSO itself but that doesn't tell you very much. I have my own horrible cynical thoughts about what's going on but can't substantiate them but I've seen this sort of thing before. I think we're going to get an awful lot of kit deployed in the field but very poor usage levels and negligible integration between TOCs never mind with TfL / buses. It's a crying shame that something with great potential is likely never to work effectively or deliver a genuine step change in customer service / flexibility for passengers.

 

[jon0844]

The plan for smartcards predate Mr Osborne somewhat don't they? Wasn't it SWT that came up with a system first?

They're all supposed to be compatible of course, but they're not in reality.

I noticed another standalone reader saying out of service earlier this week, and it was still broken today.

I am sure the franchise requirements weren't for sometime this shoddy!

You're probably right that the DfT would have screwed up too, but that's not an excuse!

 

[JaJaWa]

I strongly feel that if the transport authorities in Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle can combine to form 'Transport for the North' and provide a smartcard and rail services fit for the north, then Transport for London should be allowed to combine with transport authorities in Hertfordshire, Kent, Essex and Surrey to form 'Transport for the South East' and provide a smartcard and rail services fit for the south east.

 

[Hadders]

I strongly feel that if the transport authorities in Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle can combine to form 'Transport for the North' and provide a smartcard and rail services fit for the north, then Transport for London should be allowed to combine with transport authorities in Hertfordshire, Kent, Essex and Surrey to form 'Transport for the South East' and provide a smartcard and rail services fit for the south east.

Hertfordshire, Kent, Essex and Surrey don't operate rail services. They're under the control of the DfT.

 

[JaJaWa]

Hertfordshire, Kent, Essex and Surrey don't operate rail services. They're under the control of the DfT.

Neither did some of the local authorities I mentioned until their partnership with the DfT as given them a say in the next Northern franchise.

One of the main reasons preventing London Overground expansion has been the lack of support from neighbouring authorities, which wouldn't happen if they were represented in providing the new service.

 

[fkofilee]

I had a Southern One, then changed it in for a white TL one.
I have had a season ticket on it for almost 3 years... Not ONCE have i been asked for any ID

I think its safe to say you dont need ID...

 

[plcd1]

Neither did some of the local authorities I mentioned until their partnership with the DfT as given them a say in the next Northern franchise.

One of the main reasons preventing London Overground expansion has been the lack of support from neighbouring authorities, which wouldn't happen if they were represented in providing the new service.

The last time Kent and Surrey reps sat down in from the Assembly Transport Committee there was a much more "accepting" tone in terms of TfL taking over the operation of some services in those areas. There were some conditions set down but TfL and Isabel Dedring, Dep Mayor for Transport, were not overly concerned about them and felt they could easily work within those constraints or had always assumed they were there anyway (e.g. not nicking long distance train paths for TfL services which is matter for ORR not TfL).

I actually wouldn't want a "Transport for the South East" unless there was a massive increase in funding. This is because there would be too much risk of London's funding being spread over a large area meaning less is spent in Greater London. Given the rumoured loss of TfL's revenue grant it is gong to be a miracle if TfL can maintain service levels, especially on the bus network. Spreading none existent cash (i.e. fares revenue) to try to rebuild the bus networks in the Home Counties isn't going to work. Can you imagine the spending needed to get Surrey and Kent bus services up to TfL levels? I also can't see DfT wanting to see rail revenue streams / premia being channelled into TfL / TfSE and not to them and off to the Treasury.

I'm afraid I view "Transport for the North" as a massive con trick being played on Labour politicians who refuse to see that the Chancellor is going to underfund them forcing them to make unpalatable decisions about fare levels, rail investment, service levels and cutting bus networks to pieces. Playing games with Smartcard ticketing won't solve those issues when you consider the underlying issues that need fixing.

 

[jon0844]

I had a Southern One, then changed it in for a white TL one.
I have had a season ticket on it for almost 3 years... Not ONCE have i been asked for any ID

I think its safe to say you dont need ID...

But the point is; is the lack of ID because Southern never managed to set the cards up properly - either with a photo stored on the card, or printed ON the card - or because the plan is to not require ID once seasons go on smartcards?

If the second, isn't that going to be a problem with season ticket sharing?

If the former, how come they've been allowed to drag their heels and just change the rules to suit its lack of progress?

 

[Stats]

I would put forward this theory about lack of requirement for photo id

With a paper season, it is very easy to fraudulently claim a duplicate while the original remains in use. The only way to link the season to a person is through the photocard number printed on the season. It is much more difficult to duplicate an electronic season which is linked to the smartcard. The smartcard may have personal id loaded on it, and the holder can prove it to be theirs either by answering questions or by providing any id. Unlike a paper season, the electronic season can be cancelled remotely if fraud or misuse is suspected.

It doesn't entirely stop transfers between users, but some of the risks for the TOC such as duplicate seasons being in use, transfers between husband and wife, or transfers between and old and young person (if DOB is on the smartcard) are removed by the use of an electronic ticket.

 

[paddyk]

Ive been using mine on the GN route for a few weeks now. On the times it been checked a few have looked and said thats fine and some have got the reader out and scanned the card. None have asked for my photo card.

 

[fkofilee]

But the point is; is the lack of ID because Southern never managed to set the cards up properly - either with a photo stored on the card, or printed ON the card - or because the plan is to not require ID once seasons go on smartcards?

If the second, isn't that going to be a problem with season ticket sharing?

If the former, how come they've been allowed to drag their heels and just change the rules to suit its lack of progress?

3 years ago Southern did have photos on them... I was one of the first to have one.... Since Then They have dropped it

 

[StateOfPlay]

Had a ticket inspector on the train yesterday. I showed him my "key" and my picture travel card and he just looked at me like I was mad. A few seconds later he twigged, and said he hadn't seen one of these keys before. He dug around in his bag and using a reading device he was able to see the ticket and that I had logged in at KGX. We were both pleased it worked!

As an aside, I was having to stand for the whole journey, and what really annoyed me was a couple of people who were very comfortable in their seats didn't even have a ticket. Cheeky beggars!

 

[Mike395]

Well... after praising The Key's reliability for me on buses here a couple of pages back... just been on two successive buses which have declined it (One saying 'Not valid for travel. Please use another way to pay for this journey' and the other saying my pass had expired!) Luckily the second one was a Borismaster and I elected to stay on it, but the thought occurred that if I'd have been stranded due to a technical error, what could happen? (The pass doesn't expire until 30th Nov - and I confirmed this with the LU Oyster machines at Farringdon... where the card worked smoothly)

I'll be giving GTR's Key team a call first thing Monday to report this - and they need to bang their heads together with TfL as a matter of urgency - the cards are becoming more popular on TL, and all it'll take is one person to go to the press having been (genuinely) stranded, and this could blow up in their face...

 

[fkofilee]

I wouldnt worry, I already complained to my local MP as well as that of Reigate and Redhill.

To top it off, I referred it to all the newspapers. Ive had major issues with TL this year, So much so my complaint went to the top and was read by Mr Horton.

 

[MikeyL]

I have a "London Terminals" Annual Season Ticket which I use to travel to Moorgate, taking advantage of the Joint Availability Rules to travel in to London Kings Cross and then continue my journey on London Underground to Moorgate. I have just transferred this ticket on to "the Key" smartcard. WHAT A DISASTER-

The Key does not work on the underground barriers at Kings Cross Station. Worse still the London Underground staff at Kings Cross have clearly been given a briefing on what to so with these cards that does not recognise the validity under the joint availability rules. On the first occasion that I was refused entry to the underground, I was marched over to a ticket machine, the LU gatekeeper swiped my card, pointed to a line that said "No entitlement" and said that means your ticket is not valid. I tried to explain that I was travelling to Moorgate and that the Joint Availability rules applied - but the answer was still - no your ticket is not valid. National Rail Tickets are not valid on London Underground they said.

I complained to Great Northern - but they said - your ticket should work. We are aware that there are problems with some cards not working at Kings Cross but don't worry - if it doesn't work, LU staff will let you through the gate - sorry Great Northern they won't!

I complained to TfL - their first response was an unhelpful - "your ITSO card is valid if accompanied by a National Rail Annual Travelcard. " I complained AGAIN - asserting that under the joint availability rules, the ITSO card should also be valid for a journey to Moorgate if accompanied by a London Terminals season ticket. Unhelpfully they replied the same way AGAIN "your ITSO card is valid if accompanied by a National Rail Annual Travelcard". I COMPLAINED FOR A THIRD TIME - this time they finally checked with a ticketing expert who confirmed - yes your ITSO card should be valid for a journey to Moorgate if accompanied by a London Terminals Annual Season valid for journeys between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate.

AT LAST some sense! My card continued to fail to work on the underground barriers but armed with a copy of the response from TfL customer services, I continued to present my "Key" card and receipt to the LU staff, who after a while began to let me through the gates. "We know who you are" they said!

NEVER AGAIN I SAID - WHEN MY CURRENT SEASON RUNS OUT (ON 31 DEC) MY SMARTCARD GOES IN THE BIN

Today however, my "Key" card finally opened the gates at London Kings Cross. Checking my account online, it seems that an additional ticket has been added to my KEY card - valid from Potters Bar to London Zones 123456. Clearly my complaint to Great Northern has had some effect - but it would have been nice if they had told me directly that it had now been fixed, instead of leaving me to discover the change for myself!

I checked with a work colleague who also travels the same route and has faced the same problems. Yes he said, after checking, - a ticket from Potters Bar to London Zones 123456 had also been added to his Key card on November 20th - again without actually informing him (unlike me, he had been avoiding confrontation by taking the slow train and changing at Finsbury Park each day)

DESPITE OF THIS BELATED "FIX" I AM HAPPY TO SAY THAT "THE KEY" WILL STILL GO INTO THE BIN ON 31 DEC TO BE REPLACED WITH AN OLD FASHIONED, BUT FUNCTIONING PAPER TICKET (EVEN IF I HAVE TO KEEP REPLACING IT EVERY 4 OR 5 WEEKS WHEN THE MAGNETIC STRIP STOPS WORKING)

The moral of this post however, is simple. If (like me) you are stupid enough to ask for one of these so called "smartcards" stick to your guns, keep complaining and insisting that your ticket is valid and eventually you will get there - BUT BETTER STILL STEER CLEAR OF "THE KEY" AND STICK TO PAPER TICKETS INSTEAD.

 

[JaJaWa]

I have a "London Terminals" Annual Season Ticket which I use to travel to Moorgate, taking advantage of the Joint Availability Rules to travel in to London Kings Cross and then continue my journey on London Underground to Moorgate. I have just transferred this ticket on to "the Key" smartcard. WHAT A DISASTER-

The Key does not work on the underground barriers at Kings Cross Station. Worse still the London Underground staff at Kings Cross have clearly been given a briefing on what to so with these cards that does not recognise the validity under the joint availability rules. On the first occasion that I was refused entry to the underground, I was marched over to a ticket machine, the LU gatekeeper swiped my card, pointed to a line that said "No entitlement" and said that means your ticket is not valid. I tried to explain that I was travelling to Moorgate and that the Joint Availability rules applied - but the answer was still - no your ticket is not valid. National Rail Tickets are not valid on London Underground they said.

I complained to Great Northern - but they said - your ticket should work. We are aware that there are problems with some cards not working at Kings Cross but don't worry - if it doesn't work, LU staff will let you through the gate - sorry Great Northern they won't!

I complained to TfL - their first response was an unhelpful - "your ITSO card is valid if accompanied by a National Rail Annual Travelcard. " I complained AGAIN - asserting that under the joint availability rules, the ITSO card should also be valid for a journey to Moorgate if accompanied by a London Terminals season ticket. Unhelpfully they replied the same way AGAIN "your ITSO card is valid if accompanied by a National Rail Annual Travelcard". I COMPLAINED FOR A THIRD TIME - this time they finally checked with a ticketing expert who confirmed - yes your ITSO card should be valid for a journey to Moorgate if accompanied by a London Terminals Annual Season valid for journeys between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate.

AT LAST some sense! My card continued to fail to work on the underground barriers but armed with a copy of the response from TfL customer services, I continued to present my "Key" card and receipt to the LU staff, who after a while began to let me through the gates. "We know who you are" they said!

NEVER AGAIN I SAID - WHEN MY CURRENT SEASON RUNS OUT (ON 31 DEC) MY SMARTCARD GOES IN THE BIN

Today however, my "Key" card finally opened the gates at London Kings Cross. Checking my account online, it seems that an additional ticket has been added to my KEY card - valid from Potters Bar to London Zones 123456. Clearly my complaint to Great Northern has had some effect - but it would have been nice if they had told me directly that it had now been fixed, instead of leaving me to discover the change for myself!

I checked with a work colleague who also travels the same route and has faced the same problems. Yes he said, after checking, - a ticket from Potters Bar to London Zones 123456 had also been added to his Key card on November 20th - again without actually informing him (unlike me, he had been avoiding confrontation by taking the slow train and changing at Finsbury Park each day)

DESPITE OF THIS BELATED "FIX" I AM HAPPY TO SAY THAT "THE KEY" WILL STILL GO INTO THE BIN ON 31 DEC TO BE REPLACED WITH AN OLD FASHIONED, BUT FUNCTIONING PAPER TICKET (EVEN IF I HAVE TO KEEP REPLACING IT EVERY 4 OR 5 WEEKS WHEN THE MAGNETIC STRIP STOPS WORKING)

The moral of this post however, is simple. If (like me) you are stupid enough to ask for one of these so called "smartcards" stick to your guns, keep complaining and insisting that your ticket is valid and eventually you will get there - BUT BETTER STILL STEER CLEAR OF "THE KEY" AND STICK TO PAPER TICKETS INSTEAD.

What's your original station? Sounds like they've added a free Travelcard to your key.

 

[plcd1]

What's your original station? Sounds like they've added a free Travelcard to your key.

From the original post I'd say it was Potters Bar. Personally I'd be completely delighted if I had suddenly gained six zones of Londonwide travel at no extra cost! This assumes that that is actually what has been encoded and that it would work throughout the "ITSO Oyster-ised" estate [1] within the zones.

[1] all ticket gates, validators and hand held readers in Z1-6.

 

[jon0844]

By the time they fix all the issues, I'll hopefully be able to use Oyster and just bin my Key.

 

[billc.cn]

From the original post I'd say it was Potters Bar. Personally I'd be completely delighted if I had suddenly gained six zones of Londonwide travel at no extra cost! This assumes that that is actually what has been encoded and that it would work throughout the "ITSO Oyster-ised" estate [1] within the zones.

[1] all ticket gates, validators and hand held readers in Z1-6.

I would not try to use the card outsite the route that were not originally valid though. They have the travel records after all.

However, it would be interesting to know whether TfL or TSGN issued the free Z1-6 ticket.

 

[paddyk]

My ticket also shows an extra Potters Bar + Z1-6. Must have been how they fixed the gate issue at Kings X

 

[talldave]

By the time they fix all the issues, I'll hopefully be able to use Oyster and just bin my Key.

The issues should have been fixed before it was inflicted on paying customers. I'd have sent them an error report and an invoice every time it failed to operate.

I don't know how Southern/GTR get away with operating like a bunch of incompetent amateurs. If banks had rolled out contactless with such deficiencies there would have been high profile media coverage and regulator interest. But when rail travellers are inconvenienced nobody seems to give a toss.

 

[jon0844]

The trick is to making each 'victim' believe it's a minor problem, unique to them, not a big deal etc.

Thus, they get away with it because nobody can prove the problem is widespread.

The problems will likely reveal themselves more in the new year when I assume people renewing annual seasons will be encouraged to get the Key for the first time.

I know you could change to the Key since September but doubt that many did. It's by no means a scientist survey, but I've looked for people using smartcards in the peak and seen very few, despite there being a large number of season ticket holders.

 

[Mike395]

I would put forward this theory about lack of requirement for photo id

With a paper season, it is very easy to fraudulently claim a duplicate while the original remains in use. The only way to link the season to a person is through the photocard number printed on the season. It is much more difficult to duplicate an electronic season which is linked to the smartcard. The smartcard may have personal id loaded on it, and the holder can prove it to be theirs either by answering questions or by providing any id. Unlike a paper season, the electronic season can be cancelled remotely if fraud or misuse is suspected.

It doesn't entirely stop transfers between users, but some of the risks for the TOC such as duplicate seasons being in use, transfers between husband and wife, or transfers between and old and young person (if DOB is on the smartcard) are removed by the use of an electronic ticket.

Just a bump to say both TL/GN & Southern's websites now explicitly say you must have a NR Photocard to use with The Key.

 

[MikePJ]

I'm still waiting for GTR and AGA to link up their systems so I can have a smartcard season between Cambridge and Meldreth. AGA have launched their smartcard product in the last week or so, so it shouldn't be too far away...