What to do with an old Pacer

[GrimsbyPacer]

In the case of trolleybuses, many built in the 1920's were completely rebodied a couple of times and still in service in 1960's. The electric traction package and chassis were bombproof.

Sandtoft near Scunthorpe has a large trolleybus museum.
Maybe a national Pacer museum would be good?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Maybe a national Pacer museum would be good?

They've got one. It's called Newton Heath. *innocent whistle*

 

[deltic08]

I am surprised no-one has mentioned the Ministers visit to Teesside yesterday.
He stated he could not replace the Pacer as soon as the Prime Minister promised last year. Some could be with us until 2030.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I am surprised no-one has mentioned the Ministers visit to Teesside yesterday.
He stated he could not replace the Pacer as soon as the Prime Minister promised last year. Some could be with us until 2030.

The BBC are on the case as this video from BBC North West Tonight on 6th Feb 2015 demonstrates.

http://youtu.be/obtf2hRXOag

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I am surprised no-one has mentioned the Ministers visit to Teesside yesterday.
He stated he could not replace the Pacer as soon as the Prime Minister promised last year. Some could be with us until 2030.

Who would have thought Pacers would outlive HSTs and all those othertrains?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They've got one. It's called Newton Heath. *innocent whistle*

Good posting..

There are some who refer to it as the "National Shrine", with pilgrimages on a regular basis of "Pacer enthusiasts".

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Good posting..

There are some who refer to it as the "National Shrine", with pilgrimages on a regular basis of "Pacer enthusiasts".

I should add, at this point, that I do actually like going on Pacers myself - I enjoy the bouncing and will try to sit as close to the end of the carriage as possible...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I should add, at this point, that I do actually like going on Pacers myself - I enjoy the bouncing and will try to sit as close to the end of the carriage as possible...

I like Pacers too, but I find it's bounciest in the corridor between cars.

 

[satisnek]

Maybe a national Pacer museum would be good?

They've got one. It's called Newton Heath. *innocent whistle*

Good posting..

There are some who refer to it as the "National Shrine", with pilgrimages on a regular basis of "Pacer enthusiasts".

Well there you go. 25 years ago the same could be said of Tyseley with regard to Modernisation Plan DMUs. What goes around comes around.

Travelling between Sheffield and Doncaster, as I was yesterday, I prefer to sit in an all-stations Northern Rail Pacer than stand in a non-stop vomiter, but maybe I'm just weird....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well there you go. 25 years ago the same could be said of Tyseley with regard to Modernisation Plan DMUs. What goes around comes around.

25 years ago, "Newton Heath's Finest" had already been in operational use for a number of years by then...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

25 years ago, "Newton Heath's Finest" had already been in operational use for a number of years by then...

But they weren't used on metro routes were they?
I was under the impression these Pacers were on rural routes in Norfolk or Cornwall etc.

 

[sprinterguy]

But they weren't used on metro routes were they?
I was under the impression these Pacers were on rural routes in Norfolk or Cornwall etc.

Pacers have worked frequent stop suburban services their whole lives: The first fourteen 142s were procured for GMPTE and worked routes such as the Hope Valley and up through Rochdale, amongst others. A number of later build units from the first batch were given “Network Northwest” branding and were used on the likes of the Manchester to Liverpool, Wigan and Southport routes.

The 143s were built specifically for the North East local services worked from Heaton depot: Newcastle to Hexham/Carlisle, Newcastle to Sunderland/Hartlepool/Middlesbrough, etc.

The 144s were West Yorkshire PTE sponsored and were primary traction on the Airedale and Wharfedale Leeds to Keighley/Skipton/Ilkey services prior to electrification, and the 141s were prevalent in South Yorkshire on the likes of the Knottingley services.

I’m not aware that Norfolk ever had a squadron allocation of Pacers: The prototype class 140 underwent some extensive trials in the region after which it seems to have been decided not to proceed with such a scheme. After the 142s were dispatched from the West Country as being unsuitable in around 1990, the entire Pacer fleet, from classes 141 to 144 inclusive, was based across the North of England for a number of years, so they worked a wide range of urban commuter services out of Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool.
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He stated he could not replace the Pacer as soon as the Prime Minister promised last year. Some could be with us until 2030.

Lord help us all. Spent fifteen minutes on a Pacer struggling to get round the curve at Gateshead on Saturday, being revved desperately and intermittently yet going nowhere at more than a crawl (Combined with being let out behind a late running Metro at Sunderland turning a 20-ish minute journey into a 45 minute one). This was shrugged off as being down to “overcrowding”, and granted we were standing down the aisles but surely this is more indicative that the trains are no longer fit for their intended purpose, being unable to even propel themselves forward reliably with a full load or meet the passenger demand on the route, even on a weekend?

 

[pemma]

Routes have changed in the last 25 years.

Manchester Airport station didn't exist 25 years ago, so Pacers certainly weren't designed with the intention of being used on services to/from Manchester Airport.

When Altrincham-Sale-Manchester was converted to Metrolink, Southport-Piccadilly services became through services to Chester via Stockport and services were mainly operated by 150s. Now both Mid-Cheshire and Southport-Airport services see a significant number of 142s.

On the other hand Windermere services got longer (running through to Manchester Airport) so they got better stock.

Wakefield-Victoria was a through route operated mainly by 142s but that was split at Huddersfield in 2004.

Huddersfield-Sheffield services and Sheffield-Lincoln services got joined at one point so got upgraded from mainly Pacers to mainly 156s, then when the route got split again the Pacers reappeared again.

Buxton-Blackpool was a through route (and was consequently Pacer free) but getting split up means 142s can now appear on Manchester-Preston/Blackpool services.

There's probably loads of other examples.

 

[sprinterguy]

25 years ago, "Newton Heath's Finest" had already been in operational use for a number of years by then...

At which time they represented one of the peaks of modern rolling stock investment, while Tyseley still had to wait for "second hand" 150 units to replace their venerable (and extensive) first generation DMU fleet (and slightly longer again until new 323 units were ready for use on the newly electrified Cross-city line). Swings and roundabouts in the generational game of rolling stock renewal.

 

[pemma]

At which time they represented one of the peaks of modern rolling stock investment, while Tyseley still had to wait for "second hand" 150 units to replace their venerable (and extensive) first generation DMU fleet (and slightly longer again until new 323 units were ready for use on the newly electrified Cross-city line). Swings and roundabouts in the generational game of rolling stock renewal.

The North West had 1st gen DMUs until 2003 and had regional services operated by mk1 and mk2 stock until 2004. The 142s only replaced the worst of the 1st gen DMUs.

 

[sprinterguy]

The North West had 1st gen DMUs until 2003 and had regional services operated by mk1 and mk2 stock until 2004. The 142s only replaced the worst of the 1st gen DMUs.

Second generation DMUs (including 142s to the fore) replaced most of the first generation DMUs around the North West. It was a fairly small contingent of 101s that made it into the mid nineties and survived until 2003. Certainly no more than a drop in the ocean compared to Tyseley’s first gen DMU allocation at the opening of the nineties.

 

[pemma]

Second generation DMUs (including 142s to the fore) replaced most of the first generation DMUs around the North West. It was a fairly small contingent of 101s that made it into the mid nineties and survived until 2003. Certainly no more than a drop in the ocean compared to Tyseley’s first gen DMU allocation at the opening of the nineties.

You were arguing poor Tyseley still had many 1st gen DMUs when the Pacers were introduced in other areas in 1985 - so did most depots as the 150s were mainly used on longer distance routes initially until 155/6/8s were introduced. In fact Tyseley did well to get rid of all it's 1st gen DMUs much faster than other depots.

 

[sprinterguy]

You were arguing poor Tyseley still had many 1st gen DMUs when the Pacers were introduced in other areas in 1985 - so did most depots as the 150s were mainly used on longer distance routes initially until 155/6/8s were introduced. In fact Tyseley did well to get rid of all it's 1st gen DMUs much faster than other depots.

I simply thought that turning the whole “new rolling stock” argument on its’ head to argue that Newton Heath was hard-done by because it had new trains in place of old ones was somewhat bizarre.

Interesting to note that some NSE area depots were amongst those that held onto first generation DMUs in great numbers the longest, while they awaited "their turn in the queue" to receive new stock, in the form of Network Turbos.

 

[pemma]

Interesting to note that some NSE area depots were amongst those that held onto first generation DMUs in great numbers the longest, while they awaited "their turn in the queue" to receive new stock, in the form of Network Turbos.

The NSE area depots had trains like the 205s and 207s which were DEMUs. Apparently electric motors are expected to last longer - I'm not sure if that applies to DEMUs as well. I think the 207s were the newest of the 1st gen diesel trains so logically they would be replaced last.

 

[sprinterguy]

The NSE area depots had trains like the 205s and 207s which were DEMUs.

Not out along the Thames Valley and associated branches they didn't (and the North Downs line, too, during the same time period).

 

[Wolfie]

I am surprised no-one has mentioned the Ministers visit to Teesside yesterday.
He stated he could not replace the Pacer as soon as the Prime Minister promised last year. Some could be with us until 2030.

My bold

Doubtless the 143/144s... Perhaps Porterbrook have been having words in the ear of DfT...

 

[pemma]

Doubtless the 143/144s... Perhaps Porterbrook have been having words in the ear of DfT...

Apparently the ITT was going mention Pacer replacement but it's now going to say something along the lines of 'look to move towards a fleet consisting of just bogied trains'. Maybe Porterbrook said something about if DfT want a free rolling stock market they can't then rule out a specific class of train.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Routes have changed in the last 25 years. Manchester Airport station didn't exist 25 years ago, so Pacers certainly weren't designed with the intention of being used on services to/from Manchester Airport.

If you may recall, I recently made a posting about the first day of service (much further back in time than 25 years ago) of the Class 142 services on the Oldham loop line and of the rather scathing comment by a retired headmistress to the young PR-type who was asking passengers what they thought about "the new trains".
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Interesting to note that some NSE area depots were amongst those that held onto first generation DMUs in great numbers the longest, while they awaited "their turn in the queue" to receive new stock, in the form of Network Turbos.

Complete this well-known phrase or saying:-
Networker Turbos is to "new trains" as Class 142 Pacers is to......

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I like Pacers too, but I find it's bounciest in the corridor between cars.

Yes, but there's no seats or windows there...

 

[Emyr]

Yes, but there's no seats or windows there...

No choice but to stand there sometimes.

 

[pemma]

If you may recall, I recently made a posting about the first day of service (much further back in time than 25 years ago) of the Class 142 services on the Oldham loop line and of the rather scathing comment by a retired headmistress to the young PR-type who was asking passengers what they thought about "the new trains".

My first journey on a Pacer was in the mid to late 90s. By that point they'd lost any modern feel and felt like a train that had been around since the 60s or 70s - brown interiors and Leyland bus seats didn't give the impression they were modern, while the poor ride quality didn't do anything to help give a modern feel.
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No choice but to stand there sometimes.

Indeed. It's probably the least safe place to stand on any train currently used in mainline operation.

 

[185]

Why dump in the sea when there is scrap value in them?

Some of the most demonic things on this earth are beyond exorcism

 

[WatcherZero]

Have Northern recently refreshed some 142's? One i caught this morning was weird, had a fresh coat on the outside, inside the overhead luggage racks had been recently painted black and it looked like seats had been sloppily converted from bench to airline (lots of exposed metalwork) the seats had been recently upholstered and the weirdest thing of all was unique as far as ive seen all the seats on one side of the aisle faced one way and those on the other side all faced the other rather than the usual arrangement where they face the centre of the carriage.

(Todmorden service)

 

[sprinterguy]

Have Northern recently refreshed some 142's? One i caught this morning was weird, had a fresh coat on the outside, inside the overhead luggage racks had been recently painted black and it looked like seats had been sloppily converted from bench to airline (lots of exposed metalwork) the seats had been recently upholstered and the weirdest thing of all was unique as far as ive seen all the seats on one side of the aisle faced one way and those on the other side all faced the other rather than the usual arrangement where they face the centre of the carriage.

That sounds to just be one of the ex-Northern Spirit units. They were refurbished in this style 14/15 years ago.

See the image here:
http://www.gbrailway.co.uk/Photogra...2091---Seating-area---Northern-Rail-(3)-S.jpg

 

[pemma]

That sounds to just be one of the ex-Northern Spirit units. They were refurbished in this style 14/15 years ago.

See the image here:
http://www.gbrailway.co.uk/Photogra...2091---Seating-area---Northern-Rail-(3)-S.jpg

Yes. They sometimes appear on Manchester area services and have been doing for the past 10 years but there's only a small fleet of them so aren't a common site. Passenger counts have shown they can carry less passengers than the Pacers with bus seating before people start getting left on the platform, so they're unpopular when they appear on busy commuter services.

Strangely those trains used to have armrests between the aisle and window seats but Northern removed them during the refresh. Obviously armrests are too much luxury for us Northerners!

EDIT: Here's a photo of the updated interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/13290350145/in/set-72157616075103222 Just looking at the photo you linked to they did used to have overhead luggage racks on both sides, I was wondering that when I travelled on one a few weeks ago and noticed it only had luggage racks on one side.