When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

[SteveM70]

I wouldn't go that far, given that we don't know anything about the circumstances. From what little we know, it may have been a case, of, a having some (half-drunken) fun and banter with someone that went wrong and he thought the other person wouldn't mind being touched, but the other person actually did mind, and he immediately apologised once he realised. If it was something like that, then demanding that a person resign from their job would seem to me like a total over-reaction

The reporting suggests that multiple fellow Tory MPs reporting his behaviour to the chief whip. Unless he’s spectacularly unpopular amongst the rank and file MPs, this seems pretty damning, as you’d expect this sort of stuff is the last thing they’d want in the media. And I’d be pretty confident that this sort of behaviour would be seen as gross misconduct in the vast majority of businesses

I suppose a more apt comparison are those people (mostly on Twitter) who call him “Keith”. How this became a thing is a mystery to me, and it makes such people come across as witless idiots

That would be Private Eye again

 

[ainsworth74]

That would be Private Eye again

"Witless idiots" would be an apt description then!

Now if you'll excuse me I need to go and read the latest edition

 

[Typhoon]

It isn't the first time this has happened with this particular MP however...

Conservative Whip refers himself to police over behaviour claims

Follows report that he made a pass at Olympic athlete

www.independent.co.uk

A Party investigating panel found that he had not breached the code of conduct.

In trying to track down more on the story, the best I have found is from 2017 https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/48448...ower-and-touched-up-labour-mp-tom-blenkinsop/

Mr Pincher appeared in a so-called “dodgy dossier” of alleged Tory sex pests.

His entry said: "Inappropriate with male researchers and heavy drinker + apparently touched (or more) Tom Blenkinsop."

Assuming there is at least a degree of truth in this, why the hell was he appointed to the Whips Office - twice. It is a pretty accurate description, seemingly.

(Tom Blenkinsop was a former Labour MP).

The Sun story is confirmed elsewhere eg https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5050417/Tory-MP-tried-untuck-shirt-Olympic-rower.html - no quotes, the urls tell you everything you want to know (and more).

 

[Lost property]

How would you view the matter of President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky? Howsoever, I just cannot visualise Jeremy Corbyn in a situation similar that that.


I was not aware that Greek Street (the one I know in the centre of Stockport) had such a claim to fame. There is a pub called the Armoury on there., where I suppose "trebles" could be quaffed.


So you would have no problems in referring to Sir Kier Starmer as "Rodney" then?

Well I have to say "quaffing" isn't quite how I would define the social etiquette in "The Armoury "...but Greek St can offer some "entertaining "sights in the evening....plus, when the A6 is grid locked, plenty of time to take in the views.

As for the latest "unfortunate indiscretion ", not the first time...last time, allegedly, he indulged himself he was cleared...this time...alas,

 

[najaB]

It isn't the first time this has happened with this particular MP however...

As for the latest "unfortunate indiscretion ", not the first time...last time, allegedly, he indulged himself he was cleared...this time...alas,

Once is an accident, twice a co-incidence, the third time...? Westminster, we have a problem!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The reporting suggests that multiple fellow Tory MPs reporting his behaviour to the chief whip. Unless he’s spectacularly unpopular amongst the rank and file MPs, this seems pretty damning, as you’d expect this sort of stuff is the last thing they’d want in the media. And I’d be pretty confident that this sort of behaviour would be seen as gross misconduct in the vast majority of businesses

Yeah, if it's actually multiple allegations over a period of time, then I'd agree that makes it more serious.

 

[Howardh]

Be fair, he was a bit tipsy and feeling very romantic, and there wasn't a tractor in sight....

 

[fraser158]

If I were an MP I would simply not get myself into these stupid situations.

Although, maybe that’s what being an MP can do to you…

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We all have human frailties, even in high positions, as Queen Victoria found about in the many affairs of her son, who later became King Edward VII.

Why is it always the plebs who assume the higher up the ladder you climb, the more whiter than white you become?

 

[Gloster]

I think that the general public accept that MPs have their failings like normal mortals. What they don’t like is the way that MPs work together to use their power and influence to avoid any sanctions for even the most serious failings. Pincher has done the right thing (in a practical sense) by not coming out with all sorts of pathetic excuses and having fellow MPs back him up and let him off.

 

[Howardh]

We all have human frailties, even in high positions, as Queen Victoria found about in the many affairs of her son, who later became King Edward VII.

Why is it always the plebs who assume the higher up the ladder you climb, the more whiter than white you become?

Because they make the laws that we have to adhere to?

While he's groping around, how many officers have been surrounding Mr Steve Bray confiscating his equipment and asking him to "move along sir"?

 

[najaB]

Why is it always the plebs who assume the higher up the ladder you climb, the more whiter than white you become?

If you want to be in a position of power and respect then you need to earn that respect. Nobody expects anyone to be a proverbial saint, but I know that if I was to grope one (or more!) of my fellow employees I would be out of the door so fast that my feet wouldn't touch the floor, why should it be any different for them?

As I noted above, if the men concerned are truly happy to let it go as "one of those things" then so be it, but if it was really unwanted then he should be subject to the same penalties that any of us "plebs" would be.

 

[Lost property]

By way of a bit of light relief, a special mention for, who else but.....Nadine !

Her future career, post Boris being evicted, remains uncertain, however, in the interim, she continues to display her latent comedienne potential....who would think she's actually a Gov't Minister in her day job...intent on the demise of C4, along with trying to ensure only the right forms of broadcasting are available to ensure the public have no distractions with various agendas being quietly imposed.

Nadine Dorries: Culture Secretary confuses rugby codes in speech at Rugby League World Cup event

Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries confuses the two rugby codes in a speech at a Rugby League World Cup event in St Helens.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[brad465]

By way of a bit of light relief, a special mention for, who else but.....Nadine !

Her future career, post Boris being evicted, remains uncertain, however, in the interim, she continues to display her latent comedienne potential....who would think she's actually a Gov't Minister in her day job...intent on the demise of C4, along with trying to ensure only the right forms of broadcasting are available to ensure the public have no distractions with various agendas being quietly imposed.

Nadine Dorries: Culture Secretary confuses rugby codes in speech at Rugby League World Cup event

Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries confuses the two rugby codes in a speech at a Rugby League World Cup event in St Helens.

www.bbc.co.uk

Dorries might as well be an opposition member, as recently she's not only been showing signs of stupidity like that which don't help the Government overall, but she's actually attacked other Tory MPs who've been critical of Johnson as if she was an opposition MP. For example, ahead of the confidence vote she attacked Hunt's record regarding the NHS being unprepared for covid, the following PMQs Starmer used this attack in one of his questions.

 

[birchesgreen]

Sooner or later Johnson will see she is a liability and unceremoniously dump her, and that will be the funniest thing for years.

 

[Lost property]

Dorries might as well be an opposition member, as recently she's not only been showing signs of stupidity like that which don't help the Government overall, but she's actually attacked other Tory MPs who've been critical of Johnson as if she was an opposition MP. For example, ahead of the confidence vote she attacked Hunt's record regarding the NHS being unprepared for covid, the following PMQs Starmer used this attack in one of his questions.

True, but nothing will ever surpass " Boris doesn't tell lies " ..

 

[jfollows]

We all have human frailties, even in high positions, as Queen Victoria found about in the many affairs of her son, who later became King Edward VII.

Why is it always the plebs who assume the higher up the ladder you climb, the more whiter than white you become?

We're all human, we all get things wrong, and it's right that if we recognise our failings, apologise sincerely for them, that we can be forgiven for them.
That said, I don't think it's acceptable to do something wrong more than once. In the case of Pincher, this looks like a repeat offence. I don't have much sympathy for that.
In the last place I worked, I worked with someone who had been there a long time. After I left, I heard that he was walked out of the building and fired. After a while I discovered (no proof, but good sources) that he'd committed some kind of behaviour (before I worked there) which was viewed as inappropriate by the person to whom it was directed, his behaviour was investigated and he was warned not to do it again. I gather that, after I left, he did "do it again", a number of years after the first warning, and so he was fired. This seems correct and appropriate to me, although I'll gladly admit I don't know all the facts in the case for certain.
From what I see reported today, Pincher is a repeat offender and, as such, I don't think he should remain a Conservative MP, and I think pressure will build to ensure that this isn't the case. Boris doesn't want him to resign because it'll be another seat lost to Labour if so.

EDIT It's hardly surprising that Neil Parish, the former MP for Tiverton and Honiton, who had the Conservative whip withdrawn for admitting to having watched pornography twice on his mobile phone in parliament, is pretty adamant that the whip should also be withdrawn for Chris Pincher and talks about "double standards" because it hasn't already happened (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...vatives-chris-pincher-uk-politics-latest-live).

The first thing they did to me, and I made a huge mistake, is that they withdrew the whip. There cannot be double standards.

My belief is that Christopher Pincher has things to be answered for, the whip must be withdrawn and he has the opportunity then to go before the parliamentary standards board to see what his conduct actually was - those that were affected can also give evidence.

The former MP expressed disbelief that the party whip had not already been withdrawn.

I can’t believe why they haven’t done it, because that was the first thing they did to me, even though I asked for it to be sorted out privately.

I just feel it is double standards. But I suspect by this evening or tomorrow the whip will be withdrawn. I can’t believe they can treat us in such different ways.

FURTHER EDIT The Conservative whip has been withdrawn from Chris Pincher, reported at 17:10 by The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...p-over-misconduct-allegations-conservative-mp):

Aubrey Allegretti Political correspondent
@breeallegretti
Fri 1 Jul 2022 17.10 BST

A senior MP who allegedly groped two men at a private club and admitted to having drunkenly “embarrassed myself” has lost the Conservative whip.
Chris Pincher, who stood down as the deputy chief whip over the allegations on Thursday night, was initially allowed to continue sitting on the Tory benches.

The government U-turned in the face of pressure from colleagues and withdrew the whip, meaning that Pincher, the MP for Tamworth in Staffordshire, will sit as an independent.
A spokeswoman for the Conservative chief whip, Chris Heaton-Harris, said: “Having heard that a formal complaint has been made to the ICGS, the PM has agreed with the chief whip that the whip should be suspended from Chris Pincher while the investigation is ongoing.
“We will not pre-judge that investigation. We urge colleagues and the media to respect that process.”

 

[SteveM70]

And as is often pointed out to people asking for advice in the disputes and prosecutions section, have you done it twice, or been caught twice?

 

[Howardh]

Tories have now withdrawn the whip, basically sacked him.

 

[SteveM70]

Tories have now withdrawn the whip, basically sacked him.

So they've done the right thing for entirely the wrong reasons

 

[Busaholic]

Tories have now withdrawn the whip, basically sacked him.

Most Tory MPs who have the whip withdrawn get it back eventually, often without any publicity.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Most Tory MPs who have the whip withdrawn get it back eventually, often without any publicity.

Absolutely just playing to the audience so it doesn't dominate the Sundays and reality is BoJo won't be bothered by it.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So they've done the right thing for entirely the wrong reasons

What are the wrong reasons that they have given for sacking him?

 

[Domh245]

What are the wrong reasons that they have given for sacking him?

Quoting some relevant bits from the BBC article about his having the whip withdrawn:

Prime Minister Boris Johnson was under pressure to suspend him from the party after senior Tory MPs and opposition parties said his position was untenable.

Earlier Downing Street had suggested the prime minister considered the matter closed after Mr Pincher's resignation as deputy chief whip.

But on Friday afternoon, the action was taken after a formal complaint was lodged with the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme (ICGS).

A spokesperson for Chief Whip Chris Heaton-Harris said the prime minister agreed that Mr Pincher should be suspended once the complaint had been made.

A government source defended the delay in suspending Mr Pincher, saying No 10 had acted swiftly after the complaint.

Complaints against MPs are examined by independent investigators, who can make recommendations for further action. A spokesperson for the ICGS said it could not provide any information on any complaint for reasons of confidentiality.

Witnesses told the BBC that Mr Pincher was seen "extremely drunk" at the Carlton Club, the Conservative Party members' club in St James's, central London, on Wednesday night.

The BBC has been told that the Metropolitan Police has not received any report relating to an incident at the venue.

The Sun newspaper first reported the resignation, saying he was drinking at the club when he is alleged to have assaulted two other male guests.

Several concerned Tory MPs contacted the Conservative whips' office to complain about his behaviour, the paper said.

...

Labour's Deputy Leader Angela Rayner said the prime minister had been "dragged kicking and screaming into taking any action at all" against Mr Pincher.

"He just can't be trusted to do the right thing. This whole scandal is yet more evidence of his appalling judgement," she said.

"It's time for Conservative MPs to show this chaotic prime minister the door before he can do any more damage."

Liberal Democrat's chief whip Wendy Chamberlain said "once again" the prime minister "had to be forced into doing the right thing".

"It should never have taken Boris Johnson this long to act and withdraw the whip," she said.

"There can be no more cover-ups or excuses. If this investigation confirms these serious allegations, Chris Pincher will surely have to resign."

As pressure on the prime minister to act mounted earlier, two senior female Tory MPs said the party's recent approach to allegations of sexual misconduct posed a risk of "serious reputational damage".

Caroline Nokes and Karen Bradley, who both chair select committees, said anyone under investigation for such allegations should not be allowed to represent the party and called for a new code of conduct for Tory MPs.

The only seeming reason they withdrew the whip is because a formal complaint was lodged and they'd been pressured all afternoon by influential members of their party to remove the whip.
They should have removed the whip as soon as the allegations came to light in his resignation letter if the Tories had any moral backbone although arguably, given an unquoted bit from the end of the article the real 'right thing' would have been to remove the whip years ago, let alone appointed him to the whips office!

 

[brad465]

So, in light of recent allegations, is this casual trolling or an unfortunate coincidence (or both):

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1542890015482679297

Great to visit Lickey End First School this afternoon to meet with the teaching team and the amazing pupils!

 

[Bayum]

That depends on the men who were groped. If they want to press charges then so it should be, or they may be happy to accept that it was a drunken mistake.

‘Drunken mistake’? What tosh. Would you say the same thing if it were a woman being groped?

 

[johnnychips]

‘Drunken mistake’? What tosh. Would you say the same thing if it were a woman being groped?

I think that’s up to the recipient, whatever their sex. It could be ‘oh the silly sod was just drunk’ or ‘ I felt really upset and violated, I need to report it’ and I stress that the second is in no way a wrong reaction.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Quoting some relevant bits from the BBC article about his having the whip withdrawn:



The only seeming reason they withdrew the whip is because a formal complaint was lodged and they'd been pressured all afternoon by influential members of their party to remove the whip.
They should have removed the whip as soon as the allegations came to light in his resignation letter if the Tories had any moral backbone although arguably, given an unquoted bit from the end of the article the real 'right thing' would have been to remove the whip years ago, let alone appointed him to the whips office!

So in other words, they removed the whip because a formal complaint was lodged. That seems a pretty good reason to me.

Your comment about backbone makes no sense to me: You're implying that the Tories have no moral backbone because they didn't remove the whip sooner, but as far as I can make out from the article it was - ummm - Tory MPs who were the ones calling for the whip to be removed! Maybe if you'd said that the whip's office had no moral backbone or that the Prime Minister had no moral backbone rather than tarring loads of other people with the same brush, it would've made more sense. I'd also point out that it's very easy to come out and call for some punishment as soon as you hear of allegations, but if you're the person responsible for withdrawing the whip, you probably do need to take a bit of time to investigate and find out what you can about the circumstances before you take action that might end up destroying someone's career. It doesn't follow that just because there was a delay it means that there was some some kind of attempted brush-up going on. (Although it doesn't rule out that possibility, and I am inclined to agree that from the information emerging there probably ought to be questions about why he was appointed in the first place).

(To be clear, from the information emerging, it does look to me like Pincher has behaved very badly, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be sufficiently bad that it becomes appropriate for him to resign as an MP: I'm not trying to defend him in that regard. But I also think you do need to allow time for the process to play out and for the relevant people to establish roughly what happened and what action they should take rather than just crying 'foul' because the maximum punishment wasn't meted out within seconds of a story breaking out without even time for any investigation).

 

[najaB]

‘Drunken mistake’? What tosh. Would you say the same thing if it were a woman being groped?

Yes. And I really can't see what difference the gender of the person(s) being groped makes?

If person A makes a physical advance on person B then it's up to person B to decide whether they have been sexually assaulted or not. Only they will know exactly what lead up to the action, and whether they feel that it was a case of mixed signals (possibly helped along by intoxication) which they are happy to let lie, or if they feel that Person A was deliberately being inappropriate.

 

[GusB]

Yes. And I really can't see what difference the gender of the person(s) being groped makes?

If person A makes a physical advance on person B then it's up to person B to decide whether they have been sexually assaulted or not. Only they will know exactly what lead up to the action, and whether they feel that it was a case of mixed signals (possibly helped along by intoxication) which they are happy to let lie, or if they feel that Person A was deliberately being inappropriate.

I've been on the receiving end of a few "advances" from various people over the years, one of which was from a Conservative councillor who was recently convicted of such an offence.

On most of those occasions there was usually a significant amount of alcohol consumed (I worked in a gay club) and there was genuinely no malice intended; such matters were normally dealt with by a polite "no" and that was the end of it. I felt comfortable enough to be able to deal with the matter myself and was satisfied enough with the thought that the person concerned would probably wake up the next morning and think "Oh my god, what did I do last night?".

Having said that, there have been a few occasions where I thought that someone was being a bit too full-on and have felt quite uncomfortable as a result.

Ultimately it's up to person B to decide whether or not person A has crossed a line. In the case of the councillor that I mentioned I was able to brush off his advances and deal with it in a humorous way, but the situation wasn't viewed in the same light by someone else.