Who is right? Season ticket problem

[Bumblebee]

Do you actually "pass through" Headstone Lane on the LM service, given that it only has platforms on the Overground DC line and not on the main lines?

No. The main lines are next to the Overground lines but the Overground stations are mostly enclosed so I don't actually go through Headstone Lane but go past it every morning. I often look out of the window and wonder why my LM train can't stop at a special Headstone Lane platform, just for me.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ha ha ha I thought about that too but didn't want to mention it as I thought there were already enough debatable factors

It is a valid point. I consider the Watford DC Lines as separate to the WCML.

What about Watford High Street? It's on a small dog-leg; would going Euston-Watford Jn and then back to High Street be doubling back?

I fail to see how it could be.

 

[sheff1]

) The journey planner suggests travel via H&W as Headstone Lane is not a timing point in RJIS so the software cannot detect the double back. However it is well established that the Journey Planner offering a set of times is not of itself conclusive evidence that the route is permitted.

I don't think anyone is arguing that a set of times is evidence that a route is permitted on one ticket - NRE often offers timings and indicates that more than one ticket is required. In this specific case though, NRE clearly indicates thet the journey can be made on one ticket.

NRE is part of ATOC and advertises itself as the definitive source. So if NRE says the route is valid, which it does, then that is it surely. Unless, of course, NRE is not actually definitive at all, in which case the declaration on the NRE site is false.

 

[John @ home]

Just to be pedantic, to me "the" implies there is one permitted route, otherwise it would say "a permitted route".

That pedantic argument fails due to the use of or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles later in the same sentence.

 

[RJ]

If NRE says it's valid, then it's valid, end of.

However, we all know that some validities are only made possible through some bizarre quirk. If this is the case, then you should be prepared to articulate this to staff during the course of the journey. There is the option of going through customer services to get staff briefed, but this can also double as a way to get a quirk removed so you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

For the sake of £1 a week, even I wouldn't bother with it but it's up to you.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

For my tuppence worth:

I do not believe that the "3 mile rule" supersedes the "no double back" rule. My interpretation is that if you double back then it is not a valid journey, irrespective of whether that is within the extra 3 mile allowance, unless there is an easement which allows it.

Essentially, you cannot travel further than your ticket allows unless there is an easement to allow it.

It is a well known fact that NRE often gives incorrect advice. In this point I suspect it is because there are no timing points to allow the journey planner to determine that you are doubling back.

Lets look at a similar example. Is a Warrington to Hunts Cross ticket valid to double back via Liverpool South Parkway? Well no in my opinion, because there is a double back. But the double back still complies with the "3 mile rule". But NRE says it is not valid, and two tickets need to be purchased. This is probably due to the fact that there is a timing point in the way which allows the journey planning software to determine that you are doubling back, and hence says it is not valid.

NRE used to say you could double back at Huddersfield with a ticket from Deighton to Leeds - which clearly isn't valid (we had the debate some years ago) - but as there are no timing points along the route then the journey planner could not determine that you were doubling back. (I believe a negative easement or some other program code has been put in place to force the journey planner to recognise the double back).

 

[Paul Kelly]

I do not believe that the "3 mile rule" supersedes the "no double back" rule. My interpretation is that if you double back then it is not a valid journey, irrespective of whether that is within the extra 3 mile allowance, unless there is an easement which allows it.

As the routeing guide is so vague, I concede that this interpretation may not be impossible to rule out. I don't think there is any doubt though, that if the absolute shortest route by scheduled services involves doubling back, that this doubling back is allowed, since the shortest route by scheduled services is allowed by the NRCoC without consulting the routeing guide, and the NRCoC does not mention any restriction on doubling back.

An example of this would be Yarm to Eaglescliffe. No trains which stop at Yarm also stop at Eaglescliffe, so passengers must travel through Eaglescliffe non-stop to Thornaby before changing to go back one stop to Eaglescliffe (see this thread). Yet NRE still says incorrectly that two tickets are required for this journey.

 

[yorkie]

I do not believe that the "3 mile rule" supersedes the "no double back" rule.

The "no double back" rule applies to mapped routes.

There is no need to apply it to the shortest route rule IMO, because it's only ever going to be allowed to double back when the stations are very close together, so not really an issue. If the stations are greater than 1.5 miles apart, it will be prohibited anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An example of this would be Yarm to Eaglescliffe. No trains which stop at Yarm also stop at Eaglescliffe, so passengers must travel through Eaglescliffe non-stop to Thornaby before changing to go back one stop to Eaglescliffe (see this thread). Yet NRE still says incorrectly that two tickets are required for this journey.

I once had a York to Eaglescliffe "Route Direct" and was told off by a Northern guard for not doubling back between Eaglescliffe and Thornaby! :roll: Quite why he felt the need to be rude I do not know. If he really felt he was in the right he should have politely sold a change of route excess to Any Permitted.

 

[Bumblebee]

For the sake of £1 a week, even I wouldn't bother with it but it's up to you.

I've already decided that next Tuesday (when my current week season card expires) I will ask for a season ticket from Leighton Buzzard to Harrow and Wealdstone. I can easily afford the extra £1 a week.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The "no double back" rule applies to mapped routes.

There is no need to apply it to the shortest route rule IMO, because it's only ever going to be allowed to double back when the stations are very close together, so not really an issue. If the stations are greater than 1.5 miles apart, it will be prohibited anyway.

Well, NRCoC Condition 18 says that you cannot travel beyond the destination shown on your ticket without payment of an XS fare. Now, in some cases the fare to two stations close together may be the same , but in some cases it may not.

Also, Warrington to Hunts Cross isn't valid to double back via Liverpool South Parkway according to NRE, but the two stations are very close together and the double back doesn't increase the mileage by more than 3 miles, so if the 3 mile rule allowed you to double back then this should be allowed.

Lets look at a similar example. Is a Warrington to Hunts Cross ticket valid to double back via Liverpool South Parkway? Well no in my opinion, because there is a double back. But the double back still complies with the "3 mile rule". But NRE says it is not valid, and two tickets need to be purchased. This is probably due to the fact that there is a timing point in the way which allows the journey planning software to determine that you are doubling back, and hence says it is not valid.

 

[table38]

There are some anomalies around here too due to the stopping patterns, especially Fairfield to Gorton which NRE suggests I can do via Manchester Piccadilly for £1.40 (so doubling back through Gorton, Ashburys and Ardwick) which is cheaper than the £2.20 fare from Fairfield to Piccadilly.

 

[sheff1]

It is a well known fact that NRE often gives incorrect advice.

But NRE is, quote 'the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland.' ? A passenger can only rely on the definitive source, surely.

 

[richw]

But NRE is, quote 'the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland.' ? A passenger can only rely on the definitive source, surely.

My thoughts also. Also obtaining a route print out from nre would be sufficient in event of action against a traveller to be dropped.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[34D]

It is a valid point. I consider the Watford DC Lines as separate to the WCML.

What about Watford High Street? It's on a small dog-leg; would going Euston-Watford Jn and then back to High Street be doubling back?

I fail to see how it could be.

Fascinating. So if Watford High Street isn't on the WCML, then surely Headstone Lane isn't. Or is there an unwritten rule that says 100 feet away isn't but 10 feet is?

Is Bowes Park on the direct ECML (they're visible from each other, distance say 50/100 feet.....

 

[table38]

But NRE is, quote 'the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland.' ? A passenger can only rely on the definitive source, surely.

Indeed. If you follow the Routes, availability and fares are subject to these provisions link on NRE it says:

Permitted Routes
The ticket that you have selected may require you to travel via a specific route. Our Journey Planner will have already taken this into account with the selection that you have made and will only have shown tickets that are valid for the selected trains. If you wish to travel via a specific route you can use the advanced options on the Journey Planner to select ‘travel via', ‘avoid', ‘include interchange' or ‘exclude interchange' so that the route and the required ticket(s) will be recalculated for you.

All tickets are valid via any reasonable route unless specifically stated on the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Fascinating. So if Watford High Street isn't on the WCML, then surely Headstone Lane isn't. Or is there an unwritten rule that says 100 feet away isn't but 10 feet is?

Is Bowes Park on the direct ECML (they're visible from each other, distance say 50/100 feet.....

Watford High St is clearly not on the Main Line. Neither is Bowes Park. Both are on "loops" (or branches that rejoin).

Headstone Lane is on the WCML but I can perfectly understand why booking sites do not recognise it as such.

If it was Hatch End I'd say no; the OP would have to change at Watford Jn (or Bushey). But Headstone Lane is very near Harrow & Wealdstone and well within the 3 mile rule, so valid.

That said, I would not be confident that the use of a Leighton Buzzard to Headstone Lane Season could be combined with a Harrow & Wealdstone to London non-Season ticket for non-stop travel. I would also say that break of journey at Harrow & Wealdstone would be dubious. Some people may disagree with me, and that's fine.

Smart card systems such as Oyster resolve such issues, as double-backing is not an issue providing you are within the maximum journey time and if you finish "short" at a more expensive place, you pay the higher price.

 

[infobleep]

Well talking of tickets being valid. There is always the argument if it isn't stated as not being valid then it is. If your allowed to change trains there, then surely you are allowed to exit as it's a season ticket and it's valid between all points.

I mean I've had it confirmed that I'm allowed to travel through the stating station of my season ticket, using the season ticket alone, because it has multiple valid routes to the destination. The fact I'm going from one route to the next without actually stopped at my season tickets starting station doesn't matter.

 

[Bumblebee]

Headstone Lane is on the WCML but I can perfectly understand why booking sites do not recognise it as such.

How is Headstone Lane on the WCML? NR trains can't stop at Headstone Lane. The only line that goes through Headstone Lane is the London Overground line. I go past Headstone Lane on my Leighton Buzzard-Harrow and Wealdstone train. The only time I go through Headstone Lane is when I get my second train from Harrow and Wealdstone to Headstone Lane.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Another interesting thread. Would the OP still not be at risk if NRE changed its journey planner (which it could do at any time), ie. a screenshot essentially just shows the validity of the fare that day but doesn't necessarily provide assurance that it will still be valid tomorrow (since validities/easements etc. can be changed).

 

[yorkie]

Another interesting thread. Would the OP still not be at risk if NRE changed its journey planner (which it could do at any time), ie. a screenshot essentially just shows the validity of the fare that day but doesn't necessarily provide assurance that it will still be valid tomorrow (since validities/easements etc. can be changed).

The Contract is specified at the time of purchase and remains in place for the validity of the ticket. So, for an annual there would be no need to print it each week, but for a Weekly then there could be problems.

That said, there are many of us who believe that if a route is permitted under the shortest route rule, then negative easements cannot prevent that being valid anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If your allowed to change trains there, then surely you are allowed to exit as it's a season ticket and it's valid between all points.

Not necessarily. In some cases you are allowed to double back for "interchange purposes only" (see 'Group Stations'). In this case, it's a debatable issue... I would like to say yes, but the TOCs are not going to be happy at that.

How is Headstone Lane on the WCML?

Well, I could turn that round and ask how isn't it?

NR trains can't stop at Headstone Lane.

LM trains can't, but it's still a Network Rail line with National Rail trains.

The only line that goes through Headstone Lane is the London Overground line.

I would argue the WCML is a 6-track line at this point, and I don't see how that can really be disputed. It doesn't matter that LM and LO run on different tracks, it's all the same route.

I go past Headstone Lane on my Leighton Buzzard-Harrow and Wealdstone train. The only time I go through Headstone Lane is when I get my second train from Harrow and Wealdstone to Headstone Lane.

If you take "go through" as being on a line with a platform, then I could use that argument about any station, such as Doncaster! I really don't think it matters if there are platforms at just one side of the through lines, or both sides.

IMO this is doubling back but the doubling back, but there is no rule against it in this instance. However it would be valid where shown by the National Rail journey planner anyway.

 

[Daz28]

How is Headstone Lane on the WCML? NR trains can't stop at Headstone Lane.

This document from Network Rail lists all of the stations on the WCML, and Headstone Lane is included.

 

[AlterEgo]

This document from Network Rail lists all of the stations on the WCML, and Headstone Lane is included.

It also says Watford High St is on the WCML, when clearly to any layman it is not.

The system should be balanced in favour of common sense and should appeal to the layman's sensibilities. Producing an obscure document that maybe a hundred people in the industry have read does not make Watford High St 'on the same line' as the main WCML.

I fail to see how the ticket is not valid, as NRE and industry journey planners suggest Anytime Any Permitted fares from Leighton Buzzard to Headstone Lane are valid through Harrow and Wealdstone. I haven't been convinced by any argument in this thread.

It is far quicker, and more sensible, to use Harrow and Wealdstone as a changing station. Obviously the powers that be may be concerned that by allowing this, they essentially green-light breaking your journey at Harrow.

 

[Old Timer]

I am reluctant to gte involved in this debate because quite simply it is one of those where whatever one says from a historical perspective, this will not be accepted by those who have their own trenchant views.......however.

Headstone Lane WAS a station on the WCML many years ago, but no longer is.

The DC Lines do not form part of the WCML for a variety of reasons, most of which will be self-evident.

The DC Lines sits alongside the WCML but is not part of it. The map produced by Network Rail shows the DC lines as a smaller width line, the same as the Bedford branch for example, and this if nothing else should be a giveaway.

As I hinted at the beginning, I am not going to get involved in a long-winded debate about it. I have given you the status of the DC Lines historically, and which I still believe is current even today.

 

[MikeWh]

How is Headstone Lane on the WCML? NR trains can't stop at Headstone Lane. The only line that goes through Headstone Lane is the London Overground line. I go past Headstone Lane on my Leighton Buzzard-Harrow and Wealdstone train. The only time I go through Headstone Lane is when I get my second train from Harrow and Wealdstone to Headstone Lane.

Despite the best efforts of TfL to suggest otherwise, London Overground is still a TOC and their services are just as much NR as LM, VT etc etc etc.

 

[richw]

this is the same scenario as anywhere in Cornwall to Gunnislake, up trains pass through Devonport and Dockyard, if not others, but very few call. routing allows to carry on to Plymouth and change back. This is the same situation

 

[LexyBoy]

I mean I've had it confirmed that I'm allowed to travel through the stating station of my season ticket, using the season ticket alone, because it has multiple valid routes to the destination. The fact I'm going from one route to the next without actually stopped at my season tickets starting station doesn't matter.

Interesting! Where did this confirmation come from? There was some discussion about this a while ago, and whilst I don't think there was a firm conclusion, I was fairly convinced by the arguments against it being valid.

 

[MikeWh]

this is the same scenario as anywhere in Cornwall to Gunnislake, up trains pass through Devonport and Dockyard, if not others, but very few call. routing allows to carry on to Plymouth and change back. This is the same situation

Not quite. In this case there are a number of small stations between two larger ones where mainline trains call. For each station there is the choice of changing at the first station and carrying on on a slow train or changing at the last station and going backwards.

 

[LexyBoy]

The Contract is specified at the time of purchase and remains in place for the validity of the ticket. So, for an annual there would be no need to print it each week, but for a Weekly then there could be problems.

Does the NRE journey planner form part of the contract though? The CoC doesn't mention it, it just says that the validity of routes is determined by the Routeing Guide.

 

[Old Timer]

According to the season ticket calculator on the NRE website, the season is available via routes shown in the journey planner.

If you specify either Harrow or Watford (or both) as the "Via" stations, the same fare is given, indeed in one case the planner enforces a change at Watford Jct, and at Harrow & Wealdstone !

It would seem on the basis of all logical reasoning therefore that the season ticket has the same availability restrictions as the normal fare, and thus must be valid via Harrow at no extra cost.

The old BR test of course would be the excess ticket charge ! Because there is no excess to pay then the ticket is valid.

By the way for clarification as someone has already asked, the DC line stations are included with the WCML stations for simplicity of ticketing as they always have been, because of the existing/former arrangement of interchanges at Bushey (as was), and Harrow and Queens Park (as was).

 

[Bumblebee]

I think the fact that there is still some debate and discussion shows that when the RPI said that he was smart and knew what he was doing was just hot air. I joined this forum and created this thread because I knew I'd find rail experts here and not just bother with a general forum and hope I struck it lucky there. To see people still using other examples that either prove or disprove the RPI's thinking makes me think that if we aren't 100% sure how on earth was he?

Now that I've got a better understanding of how I should buy a season ticket and that I need pay just £1 a week more for a Harrow Wealdstone season ticket I'm going to do that.