Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[The Planner]

Its also seen as a quick easy foot in the door for people that have no real interest in the role, get a job in train planning and then very quickly move off to something else. Its been an issue for a while.

 

[Meerkat]

Connections at Birmingham are right next door to Moor Street and a 10 minute walk if that from New Street so connections there are fine.

In the PRM era a 10 minute walk is not a connection

I think HS2 is a white elephant, politician willy waving, and going to be hopelessly expensive - how will the business case look at final cost, particularly if overruns mean the latter stages don’t get done?
I think the argument that incremental improvements are too disruptive (and Euston isn’t?) is overdone as the lines will need upgrades/renewals anyway.
Also HS2 green credentials are paper thin, excessive speed using a lot of energy, all that concrete, and the business case is based on new journeys (lots of which will be drive ups) rather than modal shift.

It’s supposed to help the regions but I think it will damage them - the money would be better spent on proper commuter networks for the northern cities.

 

[PR1Berske]

In the PRM era a 10 minute walk is not a connection

I think HS2 is a white elephant, politician willy waving, and going to be hopelessly expensive - how will the business case look at final cost, particularly if overruns mean the latter stages don’t get done?
I think the argument that incremental improvements are too disruptive (and Euston isn’t?) is overdone as the lines will need upgrades/renewals anyway.
Also HS2 green credentials are paper thin, excessive speed using a lot of energy, all that concrete, and the business case is based on new journeys (lots of which will be drive ups) rather than modal shift.

It’s supposed to help the regions but I think it will damage them - the money would be better spent on proper commuter networks for the northern cities.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the PRM era a 10 minute walk is not a connection

Then provide a free taxi on demand between the two for those who can't do the walk (or, if applicable, wheel their chair that distance). Most people can do that.

For instance look at how many people walk between Liverpool Central and Liverpool Lime Street, and how many do the Moorfields change and use the Loop for one stop. Almost everybody does the former as it's quicker and easier.

 

[Meerkat]

Get off train, leave station, hope taxi is there, get out of taxi, enter station.......it’s not a connection to someone who worries about such things - elderly, disabled, lots of luggage, kids, concerned about personal safety in a city.

 

[Ianno87]

The tram will also connect New Street and Curzon Street for those really unable to walk.

And it's not beyond the realms of imagination to have the New St assistance staff be able to transfer passengers to Curzon Street or vice-versa. Little difference to changing platforms at New Streer today.

And HS2 won't completely replace the ability to use remaining, albeit slower, services remaining from New Street.

Besides, PRMs who already need to transfer from Moor Street to New Street will no longer need to do so, so swings and roundabouts.

Oh, and HS2 stations across the whole network will be designed to be fully accessible and inclusive, unlike the existing 'legacy' stations.

Summary: Needs consideration yes, but a pretty spurious reason to stop a major project.

 

[Aictos]

Get off train, leave station, hope taxi is there, get out of taxi, enter station.......it’s not a connection to someone who worries about such things - elderly, disabled, lots of luggage, kids, concerned about personal safety in a city.

I'm sorry but Birmingham New Street to Birmingham Moor Street is hardly a crime infested slum as you seem to paint a picture of.

If you've booked assistance then assistance will be there and even if you haven't booked assistance then staff will do their best to help you.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill so well done!

In the PRM era a 10 minute walk is not a connection

I disagree, depending on the connection and how far they have to go, 10 minutes is plenty of time and if it isn't then just give some extra time.

The tram will also connect New Street and Curzon Street for those really unable to walk.

Indeed, it already connects New Street to Snow Hill and once Curzon Street is on the network, it will give direct links to HS2 from Wolverhampton and Birmingham itself.

And it's not beyond the realms of imagination to have the New St assistance staff be able to transfer passengers to Curzon Street or vice-versa. Little difference to changing platforms at New Streer today.

Indeed that happens today as I observed a New Street member of staff doing just that taking a wheelchair bound passenger with luggage from New Street to Moor Street and it happens all the time at Kings Cross with GTR or LNER staff taking booked assistances either to the Underground where LUL staff take over or across to St Pancras where either GTR or EMT staff take over.

So it's not a big deal as some here are trying to make it is

And HS2 won't completely replace the ability to use remaining, albeit slower, services remaining from New Street.

Indeed, you will still have LNWR and XC services using New Street along with WMT and TfW services so HS2 won't get rid of these.

 

[Bald Rick]

A good challenge but I fear one that has been put to the poster before.

Will that be a nacho sombrero that you will be eating ala homer simpson?

Mmmmmmmmmm. Nacho Sombrero.....

Really? I have to admit, when I read that, my first reaction was, Wow, that sounds absolutely fascinating. I'd love to do a job like that.

(Unfortunately, about minute later, reality returned - in the form of, but I already have a perfectly good career and life in software development, which I have no wish to give up).

Out of curiosity, does 'plenty of jobs' mean it's the kind of thing that it's hard to find enough suitable people for?

@Ianno87 @The Planner and @ChiefPlanner (and others) have provided excellent insight on this and other threads into the world of timetable development and train planning. Of course it is not just NR that do it, TOCs and FOCs have train planning departments too.

In Network Rail there has recently been a recruitment drive in the Capacity Planning team (the name of the timetabling department), which has been rather successful. There have also been some changes to the structure so that there is clear career progression in the department, to help with retention. Also better pay. Nevertheless with nearly 500 people in the team there will always be ‘churn’, as people retire, move to other departments, or leave the company altogether. Hence there are always jobs available.

I might add that none of these people, new or experienced, have yet to discover the holy grail of ‘smart timetabling’ that miraculously provides a load of extra capacity. They clearly aren’t trying hard enough...

 

[swt_passenger]

I might add that none of these people, new or experienced, have yet to discover the holy grail of ‘smart timetabling’ that miraculously provides a load of extra capacity. They clearly aren’t trying hard enough...

They probably need to get the pro version of “NRTT Editor”. Available in all good app stores. Might even be an in-app purchase...

 

[The Planner]

I might add that none of these people, new or experienced, have yet to discover the holy grail of ‘smart timetabling’ that miraculously provides a load of extra capacity. They clearly aren’t trying hard enough...

Steady, it can't be long until annual reviews!

 

[Clip]

In the PRM era a 10 minute walk is not a connection

Yet there are already stations on the network that have around that sort of time for a connection to get from one side to the other so whats the difference between them and this new connection?

Nothing. Thats the answer. Nothing.

Its just another feeble excuse to bring to the table

 

[Clip]

They probably need to get the pro version of “NRTT Editor”. Available in all good app stores. Might even be an in-app purchase...

No - they have played with simsig long enough to know how it all works and thats where smart timetabling comes from

 

[Meerkat]

I'm sorry but Birmingham New Street to Birmingham Moor Street is hardly a crime infested slum as you seem to paint a picture of.

I think there are many people who wouldn’t want to leave the station in an unfamiliar city whilst changing trains.
The fact it is perfectly possible is irrelevant to an infrequent traveller given that option.

 

[camflyer]

I think there are many people who wouldn’t want to leave the station in an unfamiliar city whilst changing trains.
The fact it is perfectly possible is irrelevant to an infrequent traveller given that option.

It comes down to a question of cost vs benefit. How many of "these infrequent" travellers are there who would benefit from an expensive direct connection between Moor St and New St? It's the same reason why a direct connection between HS1 and HS2 was scrapped as it would be very expensive for a relatively small number of passengers.

People complain about the overall cost of HS2 yet there are equally complaints when reasonable cost savings are made. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Esker-pades]

I think there are many people who wouldn’t want to leave the station in an unfamiliar city whilst changing trains.
The fact it is perfectly possible is irrelevant to an infrequent traveller given that option.

Surely those people can use Birmingham Interchange? As far as I understand, there will be a direct connection between there, the Airport and Birmingham International.

 

[Mojo]

I think a lot of the opposition into HS2, certainly in the South East, is the disruption it will cause but for no real benefit. Take people living in the Borough of Hillingdon and out into Buckinghamshire; there will be lots of disruption in terms of roadworks, noise, legal issues and paperwork if the tracks go underneath or through your land, etc., but no real benefit in terms of either being able to either use HS2 or have any better trains on the existing railway lines that serve where you live.

 

[Meerkat]

The volume is due to who is being upset by HS2. No one wants nearby construction, eyesores, and noise near them but the richer folk are better connected with politicians and have the skills and cash to mount effective campaigns.

 

[swaldman]

I think there are many people who wouldn’t want to leave the station in an unfamiliar city whilst changing trains.
The fact it is perfectly possible is irrelevant to an infrequent traveller given that option.

There are a few reasons this can be problematic - people with lots of luggage, people with genuine difficulty walking that far, and so forth.
I believe there's a shuttle bus between Glasgow Central and Glasgow for exactly this reason. Most don't use it, as it's quicker to walk, but it's there. Job done.

 

[EM2]

I might add that none of these people, new or experienced, have yet to discover the holy grail of ‘smart timetabling’ that miraculously provides a load of extra capacity. They clearly aren’t trying hard enough...

If extra capacity was there, they'd have found it.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/long-term-planning/

 

[6Gman]

I am eagerly awaiting my son's arrival home , so he (an MKC based timetable professional - who's day job is the WCML , and often does long days and the odd extra day on weekends and Bank Holidays) can read this "idea" about "Smart Timetabling"

His father , the tapper on this post , had just a bit to do with the national timetabling process , specifically the 2004 WCML TT , which took us a mere 3+ years to nail down , the hardest pieces being south of MKC on all lines and the Coventry corridor. I will not mention the number of meetings we had , and many of them were not easy.

This is why we need HS2 ….

If only PR1Berske could pop round and tell you where you've been going wrong ...

 

[6Gman]

I agree with you on track capacity but in terms of passenger loadings I think less fresh air would be carried around WCML services off peak if the destination spread was better.

I use the Pendolinos out of Liverpool & Manchester quite often in the peaks. Even with 3ph the Manchesters seem more heavily loaded than the Liverpools.

 

[Class 170101]

I use the Pendolinos out of Liverpool & Manchester quite often in the peaks. Even with 3ph the Manchesters seem more heavily loaded than the Liverpools.

But at peak times, there is out of London, 3tph to both Manchester and Birmingham at least but Liverpool gets 2tph vice 1tph.

 

[si404]

no real benefit in terms of either being able to either use HS2 or have any better trains on the existing railway lines that serve where you live.

As Chiltern residents kept telling me - they can currently get to Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool alright from Watford/Wycombe/wherever. What they forget is that Watford Junction lost a lot of its ICWC service with the WCML upgrade, as it was the easiest way to eke out an extra path and speed stuff up a little. Without HS2, there would have to be another purge of Watford fast-line stops on the WCML, and probably a similar recast of the CML. They won't get better, but they are very likely to get worse without HS2.

 

[Aictos]

It comes down to a question of cost vs benefit. How many of "these infrequent" travellers are there who would benefit from an expensive direct connection between Moor St and New St? It's the same reason why a direct connection between HS1 and HS2 was scrapped as it would be very expensive for a relatively small number of passengers.

People complain about the overall cost of HS2 yet there are equally complaints when reasonable cost savings are made. You can't have it both ways.

Indeed, couldn't word it better myself.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But at peak times, there is out of London, 3tph to both Manchester and Birmingham at least but Liverpool gets 2tph vice 1tph.

Which must be one of the most frequent (and fast services) in Europe......

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As Chiltern residents kept telling me - they can currently get to Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool alright from Watford/Wycombe/wherever. What they forget is that Watford Junction lost a lot of its ICWC service with the WCML upgrade, as it was the easiest way to eke out an extra path and speed stuff up a little. Without HS2, there would have to be another purge of Watford fast-line stops on the WCML, and probably a similar recast of the CML. They won't get better, but they are very likely to get worse without HS2.

I agree - and there was a very good . lucrative flow , which was effectively lost in 2004 …….Watford to Liverpool was around £300k prior to that.

 

[Bald Rick]

If extra capacity was there, they'd have found it.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/long-term-planning/

I know, perhaps I should have added a

 

[Hadders]

Too much short termism in this thread. A new railway line is built to deal with capacity required over the next 50 years or so.

Worrying about trains are carrying fresh air today or what the fares might be etc is just froth.

 

[underbank]

This sounds to be another example of appalling publicity/information from our politicians, just like the Brexit misinformation.

It's about time that they scrapped the pantomine of the likes of PMQT as that is just turning people off politics and blocking the real messages that need to be given to Joe Public. It's the latest "spat" between politicians that always gets the media attention, leaving no space and no interest for what really matters and what the population should be getting told.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which must be one of the most frequent (and fast services) in Europe......

It (the 3tph routes) is indeed the highest frequency InterCity-type route in Europe.