Why The Obsession With Electric cars?

[MotCO]

"A

2: Hybrid: runs on fossil fuel. Brakes are a combination of friction (used where severe braking is needed and/or to hold the vehicle stationary) and regenerative. More controlled deceleration uses a motor/generator to charge up a relatively small onboard traction battery; on acceleration, the power in that battery is used via the same motor/generator set to either fully propel the vehicle - typically for only a few yards - or to assist the petrol engine; either way it reduces fuel consumption specifically in those circumstances. Most dramatic effect is in crawling town/city traffic, with a lot of braking and light acceleration; and the least effect is on motorway cruising etc.

My only experience is with hybrid buses. I had thought that the diesel engine charged up the battery for the battery to propel the vehicle. I therefore saw this as an efficient use of the engine since it would run at a constant speed to charge the battery, rather than the variable (inefficient) use of a ICE engine to propel the vehicle at different speeds (and stop/start).

Am I wrong in my assumption?

 

[Bald Rick]

My only experience is with hybrid buses. I had thought that the diesel engine charged up the battery for the battery to propel the vehicle. I therefore saw this as an efficient use of the engine since it would run at a constant speed to charge the battery, rather than the variable (inefficient) use of a ICE engine to propel the vehicle at different speeds (and stop/start).

Am I wrong in my assumption?

Most hybrid buses use the electric motor to start off, and then assist the engine driving directly through the transmission. Boris buses in London drive electrically at all times, and use the engine to charge the battery.

 

[MotCO]

Most hybrid buses use the electric motor to start off, and then assist the engine driving directly through the transmission. Boris buses in London drive electrically at all times, and use the engine to charge the battery.

I didn't realise they were different. Which is better / more efficienct?

 

[Bald Rick]

I didn't realise they were different. Which is better / more efficienct?

Well there’s a PhD worth of answers to that!

 

[edwin_m]

"All other things being equal"...... The vehicle most often referenced in the context of the misuse of plug-ins and grants etc., is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, as it is one of the more "upmarket" examples, hence often favoured by fleet buyers etc. The comparison is best made between the PHEV and the straight petrol version of this car.

Do you have real-world consumption figures for the two versions of the Outlander to allow this comparison to be made?

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think a PHEV is a happy medium. You get the benefits of an EV but the backup and security of a 'normal' car.

I think a PHEV is the most polluting vehicle out there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a PHEV is the most polluting vehicle out there.

What documented scientific grounds do you have to believe that?

 

[LOL The Irony]

What documented scientific grounds do you have to believe that?

Well there's the shpping the batteries all over the world, then there's the ICE and then there's the fact that it could be being charged from a coal or gas fired power station.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well there's the shpping the batteries all over the world, then there's the ICE and then there's the fact that it could be being charged from a coal or gas fired power station.

Shipping all over the world - like most car parts.

ICE - like most cars

Could be charged from a coal /gas power station - or could not be. As I wrote the U.K. power mix is 54% carbon neutral.

 

[507021]

Well there's the shpping the batteries all over the world, then there's the ICE and then there's the fact that it could be being charged from a coal or gas fired power station.

A lot of cars (or car parts) are shipped across the world, it isn't just batteries for plug in electric hybrids.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Shipping all over the world - like most car parts.

A lot of cars (or car parts) are shipped across the world, it isn't just batteries for plug in electric hybrids.

Going back to the Prius video...

 

[507021]

Going back to the Prius video...

What Prius video?

 

[Bald Rick]

Going back to the Prius video...

A good example, but that is but one example. The supply chain for Toyota at Burnaston (Derby) is extremely complex, for example.

 

[LOL The Irony]

What Prius video?

Page 1.

 

[507021]

Page 1.

Whilst the production of batteries does (unfortunately) cause pollution, the whole point of eco friendly vehicles, such as hybrids or battery powered vehicles, is reduced emissions at the point of use.

 

[Harpers Tate]

My only experience is with hybrid buses. I had thought that the diesel engine charged up the battery for the battery to propel the vehicle. I therefore saw this as an efficient use of the engine since it would run at a constant speed to charge the battery, rather than the variable (inefficient) use of a ICE engine to propel the vehicle at different speeds (and stop/start).

Am I wrong in my assumption?

Correct. My own post edited somewhat to reflect this. Either way, it's relatively rare in cars - at the moment. I believe only the BMW i3 "rex" (a PHEV) does it, and I believe they are ceasing offering that variant in this country.

 

[AndrewE]

Whilst the production of batteries does (unfortunately) cause pollution, the whole point of eco friendly vehicles, such as hybrids or battery powered vehicles, is reduced emissions at the point of use.

also the electricity can be sourced from renewables, which is another significant benefit. Batteries can be recycled (as can ICEs of course) but fossil fuels can't.
Public transport is infinitely more fuel- and space-efficient than any type of car though.

 

[Clip]

Whilst the production of batteries does (unfortunately) cause pollution, the whole point of eco friendly vehicles, such as hybrids or battery powered vehicles, is reduced emissions at the point of use.

Indeed as it is well known that its pollution from cars exhausts which are doing serious damage to humans

 

[BananaRepublic]

...Here it is:
1: Conventional: runs on fossil fuel, period. Brakes are just that - friction devices.
2: Hybrid: runs on fossil fuel. ......on acceleration, the power in that battery is used via the same motor/generator set to either fully propel the vehicle - typically for only a few yards - or to assist the petrol engine; .....
3: Plug In Hybrid (PHEV): .....
4: Electric (EV): No fossil fuel, .....
5: Hydrogen Fuel Cell: Electric,.....

You've missed out the introduction of some "mild hybrid" traction packages, which use the battery and electric motors purely to boost engine performance where an ICE uses most of its fuel.
Pulling away under load and heavy acceleration.
With these, there is no electric only propulsion.
Mercedes-Benz have already released their first new "mild hybrid"s and other companies, such as Kia, have also announced their intention to do likewise.

With the rate of Battery development and a growing charging infrastructure, I suspect it's likely this option may be short lived, except for use in performance cars.

c

 

[507021]

You've missed out the introduction of some "mild hybrid" traction packages, which use the battery and electric motors purely to boost engine performance where an ICE uses most of its fuel.
Pulling away under load and heavy acceleration.
With these, there is no electric only propulsion.
Mercedes-Benz have already released their first new "mild hybrid"s and other companies, such as Kia, have also announced their intention to do likewise.

With the rate of Battery development and a growing charging infrastructure, I suspect it's likely this option may be short lived, except for use in performance cars.

c

Renault also has a mild hybrid system (on the Scénic platform only), with hybrid and/or plug-in hybrid versions of the Captur, Clio and Mégane planned in the near future according to an article I read recently.

 

[Domh245]

MHEV is going to be a fairly key part of electrification strategies - it's a system that is cheaper than other types of hybrids (smaller batteries and smaller motors required) and easier to integrate into existing vehicle designs/platforms. I'd expect MHEV to be a key technology for at least the next decade (primarily as the base level solution, with PHEV being more expensive to buy but cheaper to run, akin to Diesel v Petrol), but particularly over the next couple of years - a lot of car companies have talked about offering electrified variants of all their vehicles within the next few years, and MHEV is the most practical way of doing that

 

[AM9]

If full EV technology doesn't advance quick enough it may get some concession as an interim technology, but I wouold imagine that the degree of pollution allowed will be driven by discriminatory pricing making unnecessary deployment of vehicles that burn hydrocarbons e3xtremely uneconomical.

 

[DavidGrain]

I have had a couple of rides on buses, this week when I asked myself, Is this a hybrid? and realised the answer was no. The engine cut out at each bus stop but I realised that it was not a hybrid as the bus did not pull away from the stop on electricity. There was the judder and the flickering lights as the starter motor kicked in after each bus stop. I thought at first that the driver had stalled at each stop then saw a small poster saying that the engine was turned off at each stop to save fuel. I presume this was an automatic action but could not work out how it worked. On the bus today this also happened twice at traffic light stops.

 

[Billy A]

I have had a couple of rides on buses, this week when I asked myself, Is this a hybrid? and realised the answer was no. The engine cut out at each bus stop but I realised that it was not a hybrid as the bus did not pull away from the stop on electricity. There was the judder and the flickering lights as the starter motor kicked in after each bus stop. I thought at first that the driver had stalled at each stop then saw a small poster saying that the engine was turned off at each stop to save fuel. I presume this was an automatic action but could not work out how it worked. On the bus today this also happened twice at traffic light stops.

It's just the same stop/start you get on cars. The driver stops for more than a few seconds. The engine stops. He or she releases the brake and it starts again. On a manual vehicle you'd have to engage neutral and release the clutch, with restart happening when you press the clutch again, but on an automatic vehicle like a bus it happens as I've described.

 

[43021HST]

Shouldn't we be moving towards phasing out car ownership altogether, self driven, electric or otherwise? Particularly in cities.

In the future the only use I can see for individuals owning vehicles would be in rural areas or for specialist uses.
With us approaching midnight hour towards an ecological armageddon, the planet can no longer sustain our individualistic, ego chariots. (As a matter of fact I am a car fan, but pure logic dictates we must dispose of these 20th century hangovers.)

Also I can't stand this American model of Uber style, self driving car infrastructure, that's purported to be the future of transportation. It does nothing to solve traffic congestion or the resource consumption required to build the cars. Really we should be looking to massively expand rail electrification and the rail network, as trains are a far more efficient form of transport.

Trains are the future, not cars.

 

[AndrewE]

...as trains are a far more efficient form of transport. Trains are the future, not cars.

... where trains are the most appropriate type of transport. Don't forget the trams and trolleybuses, plus some buses where custom is too sparse to justify the investment in fixed infrastructure.
There has got to be a big shift to inheriting, re-using and repairing things too, which could cut freight transport dramatically. How much "stuff" being moved round the country could be replaced by a different approach to life?
The country (and half the world) is currently like a car engine overspeeding, it's only a matter of time before it blows up...

 

[43021HST]

... where trains are the most appropriate type of transport. Don't forget the trams and trolleybuses, plus some buses where custom is too sparse to justify the investment in fixed infrastructure.
There has got to be a big shift to inheriting, re-using and repairing things too, which could cut freight transport dramatically. How much "stuff" being moved round the country could be replaced by a different approach to life?
The country (and half the world) is currently like a car engine overspeeding, it's only a matter of time before it blows up...

Exactly! Of course we need to expand electric buses and trams as well. Dare I say it, as much as bicycles have become currently the reserve of pompous, defensive morons. Bicycles are also the future. If only they werent rode by such d***s.

 

[mac]

Shouldn't we be moving towards phasing out car ownership altogether, self driven, electric or otherwise? Particularly in cities.

In the future the only use I can see for individuals owning vehicles would be in rural areas or for specialist uses.
With us approaching midnight hour towards an ecological armageddon, the planet can no longer sustain our individualistic, ego chariots. (As a matter of fact I am a car fan, but pure logic dictates we must dispose of these 20th century hangovers.)

Also I can't stand this American model of Uber style, self driving car infrastructure, that's purported to be the future of transportation. It does nothing to solve traffic congestion or the resource consumption required to build the cars. Really we should be looking to massively expand rail electrification and the rail network, as trains are a far more efficient form of transport.

Trains are the future, not cars.

Spoken like a true train spotter without a thought for how it would work. Would you put rail lines down every road so with trains running say every 15 minutes so people can get to work, shops, doctors? how would you have interconnecting trains? What do you class as rural so needing a car? Would you ban lorries and all delivery vans? Why rail electrification where are you getting the power from for all these trains?

 

[AndrewE]

Spoken like a true train spotter without a thought for how it would work. Would you put rail lines down every road so with trains running say every 15 minutes so people can get to work, shops, doctors? how would you have interconnecting trains? What do you class as rural so needing a car? Would you ban lorries and all delivery vans? Why rail electrification where are you getting the power from for all these trains?

Spoken like a true Ostrich! When you've taken your head out of the sand and read posts 206 and 7 (posted 2 hrs before yours) you might like to consider whether a cleaner healthier urban environment might be more attractive than what we currently have to endure.

 

[mac]

I've read them but can't see any answers to Klamberts 205 post, in 207 he wants everyone out on bicycles and electric buses and in 206 you want things repairing who's going to do it, you also say about moving stuff around the country even your trains get moved by lorry. cCould you maybe answer some of my points