Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[ComUtoR]

Pretty certain platform one is 8 car only

It's 13

 

[NorthKent1989]

Whenever I go past, there seems to be plenty of evidence of Exmouth Junction's concrete works !

indeed.

Just watched the 1989 Xmas special had to say I was rather delighted at seeing Margate station in Network South East colours

 

[BluePenguin]

indeed.

Just watched the 1989 Xmas special had to say I was rather delighted at seeing Margate station in Network South East colours

Now that is something I would like to see! Care to share?

 

[yorksrob]

indeed.

Just watched the 1989 Xmas special had to say I was rather delighted at seeing Margate station in Network South East colours

Ah yes, and an exploding coach !

 

[LLivery]

Thinking back to the 2tph days, the Penge East line is something of a big success story. The Hayes Line is also busier all day; Catford Bridge is very busy throughout the day but has more potential. Over the past few years, even Lower Sydenham in it's "hidden location" feels much busier in the last few years, helped by local developments. Developers want more, but it keeps being refused by Bromley Council for a few reasons. That said, I think they may give in eventually and I think the Lewisham side will have more proposed eventually.

Going back to whether 8tph is an overkill on the Greenwich Line, I don't think it is. As stated, development will be huge along there and higher frequency services in London always attract more people. Look at residential Earlsfield (16tph), usage of 7 million, while Greenwich (6tph) is only 2.8 for SE, despite probably being South London's biggest tourist hub.

I think whoever the new franchise holder is, 10 car trains all day should be the aim for the suburbs. Also, higher frequencies where possible should happen, including Sundays which are currently a disgrace.

I would love to have 6tph via Penge East but just don’t see how they would fit, even with much more regular use of the Kent House loops (which would lengthen journey times).

They manage it in the peaks. Albeit, it's 2tph Blackfriars - Beckenham Jun. Maybe that should be all day?

My view on this is that everything should become more semi-fast. Unpopular probably - but longer distance Kent services should switch to Charing Cross.

And everything out of Victoria should stop at least once between Bromley South and Victoria... it's 2 track so needs smoothing out to increase frequency. More people would benefit I think, for all of Bromley's 2-3 added minutes. And services from Victoria only run as far as Medway, Orpington/Sevenoaks and Maidstone, and become more metro/semi-fast in nature.

Or... there is a 15 min cycle of: fast to Bromley South, one stop following (eg Beckenham) and then Bromley, two stops (eg Herne Hill and Penge East) and then Bromley, and slow towards Bromley. The slow could terminate elsewhere, but I suspect Kent House is better for pathing/overtaking than terminating.

Earlier this year, the timetable was altered for the weekend and I had the pleasure of a fast Victoria - Penge East service - it was great.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Going back to whether 8tph is an overkill on the Greenwich Line, I don't think it is. As stated, development will be huge along there and higher frequency services in London always attract more people. Look at residential Earlsfield (16tph), usage of 7 million, while Greenwich (6tph) is only 2.8 for SE, despite probably being South London's biggest tourist hub.

Possibly something to do with Cutty Sark station being much more conveniently located for most tourists? (although with slower journey times from central London). And more generally, there are numerous other stations pretty close to Greenwich, so someone living as little as a quarter of a mile from Greenwich station may find it more convenient to use a different station to get to Central London: That's not the case at Earlsfield, which therefore would have a wider catchment area than Greenwich.

Realistically, once you get to a train every 10 minutes, I would suspect that additional services would have very little impact on generating demand - how many people would refuse to use the train because they might have to wait 10 minutes for the next one? So conversely, it doesn't really make sense to argue that a 10 minute frequency would be suppressing demand significantly - unless of course trains are so packed that you either can't get on them or journeys are extremely uncomfortable. And from when I've travelled on that line, off-peak that's nowhere near the case in Greenwich (peak might be another matter).

 

[387star]

Let's hope there is no needless replacement of the 375s... they are actually very comfortable

 

[londonteacher]

Let's hope there is no needless replacement of the 375s... they are actually very comfortable

That's a good point they definitely are really comfortable!

 

[HH]

375s will not be replaced.

 

[urpert]

That’s good, they have the nicest post-privatisation interior IMO (especially as built).

 

[ScotGG]

Greenwich station typifies the problem with franchises in SE area going back 20 years. It's completely open and many know it. Why pay? No staff on trains and most other stations also open. So passenger numbers not well counted.

On DLR the staff member will check tickets 1 in 4 times at least. 1 in 100 on SE is probably good going!

I doubt numbers accurately measured on trains.

Also promo is poor. SE aren't good at advertising to tourists. TfL do have big advantage with the tube map though. I've known many tourists go very long way round from Waterloo/L Bridge area on tube then DLR rather than less than 10 mins on SE train as they didn't know.

At stations or areas where DLR and SE compete DLR is demolishing Southeastern. Cutty Sark grew 20% in 5 years and Greenwich SE went nowhere. At Woolwich DLR it's up 8m to 14m in 5 years yet SE trains stagnant. Whatever they have done, TfL wiped the floor with Southeastern in terms of counted passengers. Given all the new homes one would expect some increase on SE - aside from those going Poplar/Canary Wharf.

 

[brad465]

Let's hope there is no needless replacement of the 375s... they are actually very comfortable

That's a good point they definitely are really comfortable!

375s will not be replaced.

Agree, especially after their recent refurb, but as someone who has to often put up with 377s out of Maidstone I hope they get refurbished first ahead of any of new refurbishment in the new franchise, if they're to stay

 

[NorthKent1989]

Now that is something I would like to see! Care to share?

Ah yes, and an exploding coach !

Here you are! I do miss NSE! So much more colour in railways in those days

 

[yorksrob]

Here you are! I do miss NSE! So much more colour in railways in those days

View attachment 54869

Yes so much better than bland yellow and grey inspired by Connex !

 

[387star]

375s don't have doo cameras

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes so much better than bland yellow and grey inspired by Connex !

Indeed, though I prefer the Connex yellow over the current bland blue any day.

I have written a short story regarding NSE surviving into the 2000s and beyond.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Regarding the 6tph vs 8tph on the Greenwich line issue.

I think it’s more about raising the NK Line up to 10tph, which makes sense long term.

Ideally if Thameslink does stay then it should be rerouted to run via Blackheath
Then upgrade the Greenwich line to 8tph

- 4tph CS to Gravesend

- 2tph Rounders to Bexleyheath line

- 2tph Rounders to Sidcup line

- 2tph Thameslink via Lewisham, selected stations (not calling at St. John’s, Woolwich D, Belvedere, Erith, Slade Green, Stone Crossing, Swanscombe & Northfleet, I’m undecided about New Cross as a potential stop, so I’d have the Thameslink stop there st peaks for the Overground line)

This will balance out certain needs along the line, with population growth and increases links to major interchanges.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, though I prefer the Connex yellow over the current bland blue any day.

I have written a short story regarding NSE surviving into the 2000s and beyond.

That's interesting. I quite like the blue colour scheme. Also like Southern's two tone green. I guess I just like pastels !

NSE surviving into the 21st century. An electrified Marshlink operated with cascaded phase 1 CIG's operating a through service to Brighton !

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That's interesting. I quite like the blue colour scheme. Also like Southern's two tone green. I guess I just like pastels !

NSE surviving into the 21st century. An electrified Marshlink operated with cascaded phase 1 CIG's operating a through service to Brighton !

NSe certainly did incredibly well in the early Green years , but was increasingly challenged as the economy veered into / towards recession. Incredible really how the staff and public bought into it , the excellent marketing and the speed at which often complex projects and upgrades were delivered. Even my beloved DC lines were improved with "Operation Sparkle" ...

Far better than the so called "magic" of privatisation delivered , especially on SE where the once proud Networkers were effectively trashed by the vandals and the staff were less than content in being attired in Swiss postal caps and part yellow uniforms.

Can we see this NSE in the 21stC please ?

 

[yorksrob]

NSe certainly did incredibly well in the early Green years , but was increasingly challenged as the economy veered into / towards recession. Incredible really how the staff and public bought into it , the excellent marketing and the speed at which often complex projects and upgrades were delivered. Even my beloved DC lines were improved with "Operation Sparkle" ...

Far better than the so called "magic" of privatisation delivered , especially on SE where the once proud Networkers were effectively trashed by the vandals and the staff were less than content in being attired in Swiss postal caps and part yellow uniforms.

Can we see this NSE in the 21stC please ?

Alas, NSE never quite outsurvived the early 1990's recession. Had it done, I'm sure we would have seen further improvements.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Alas, NSE never quite outsurvived the early 1990's recession. Had it done, I'm sure we would have seen further improvements.

A very great shame , in all respects. The way they sweated the assets , reduced costs etc etc ......(though I doubt the EPB's would have had another overhaul and refresh .....)

"One railway for London" - with apologies to LUL , a pretty decent slogan that.

 

[yorksrob]

.(though I doubt the EPB's would have had another overhaul and refresh .....)

Yes, well I suppose nothing's perfect

They did look amazing in NSE livery.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes, well I suppose nothing's perfect

They did look amazing in NSE livery.

Agreed - especially in the darker blue - and when NSE imposed a "proper" carriage washing regime. We digress however.

 

[KingJ]

Also promo is poor. SE aren't good at advertising to tourists. TfL do have big advantage with the tube map though. I've known many tourists go very long way round from Waterloo/L Bridge area on tube then DLR rather than less than 10 mins on SE train as they didn't know.

I think this is the key point here. Most tourists will just look at the tube map and see "Ah, Cutty Sark for Maritime Greenwich, and here's the line I take to get there". If or when TfL does take over the SE Metro and turn it orange, I would expect tourism traffic to increase a bit more - you'll still likely get more going to the DLR station because of the 'x for y' naming, but when people see that Greenwich is just two stops from a Zone 1 station? That's a big pull in itself.

At least as of a few months ago, Greenwich still did have an old, but faded, NSE branded sign which indicated that the station was for Maritime Greenwich as well as saying "Welcome" in Japanese.

 

[NorthKent1989]

That's interesting. I quite like the blue colour scheme. Also like Southern's two tone green. I guess I just like pastels !

NSE surviving into the 21st century. An electrified Marshlink operated with cascaded phase 1 CIG's operating a through service to Brighton !

I too love the Southern Green livery it’s very old school, I prefer South Central as a whole.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think this is the key point here. Most tourists will just look at the tube map and see "Ah, Cutty Sark for Maritime Greenwich, and here's the line I take to get there". If or when TfL does take over the SE Metro and turn it orange, I would expect tourism traffic to increase a bit more - you'll still likely get more going to the DLR station because of the 'x for y' naming, but when people see that Greenwich is just two stops from a Zone 1 station? That's a big pull in itself.

At least as of a few months ago, Greenwich still did have an old, but faded, NSE branded sign which indicated that the station was for Maritime Greenwich as well as saying "Welcome" in Japanese.

Greenwich is very poorly advertised, considering SE advertise Kent Coastal towns.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Greenwich is very poorly advertised, considering SE advertise Kent Coastal towns.

Probably low yield on passenger fares (assuming there are those who pay) - yet it is a fabulous destination for all sorts of reasons. Always send visitors from the rest of the world - who we know - down there. Nobody has yet come back dissapointed.

One thing NSE did - (sorry to go back on this) , was to sell off peak places like this. Any future operator ought to do the same. To be fair , having good friends down there , I have never found either the service or the facilities there - lacking.

 

[Barn]

On DLR the staff member will check tickets 1 in 4 times at least. 1 in 100 on SE is probably good going!

I doubt numbers accurately measured on trains.

I would normally completely agree with you. But I have seen more revenue blocks on this line in the last few weeks than I saw in the years before that. Either SE has become conscientious very late in the day, or there is some drive to gather data.

 

[HH]

375s don't have doo cameras

DOO on mainline services is a long, long way away.

 

[Class465fan]

375s don't have doo cameras

So what?