"Your ticket has expired, sir"

[RJ]

The guy was just a moron. Quelle surprise. It's not acceptable to have morons hindering innocent members of the public going about their legitimate business. Get onto SWT and get him sacked.

What planet are you on? You can't sack someone for misreading a ticket and having a slightly off attitude.

*Cough*

Anytime Singles are now valid for two days.

I thought so too - but I bought an SOS from Market Harborough to Loughborough this week and the start/end date are one and the same :roll:

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I don't agree.

. . . .

Trial by forum at it's very worst I'm afraid.

I agree.

Anytime Singles are now valid for two days.

I thought so too - but . . . .

"The Manual" might help:

                              Ticket                               |                     Outward Validity #1
 Ticket Code   |    Class     |    Name    |    Single or Return   |         Day           |      Time    
    SOS        |   Standard   |   Anytime  |         Single        |         2 days        |    Any time  
                                                                    until 04:29 after last
                                                                        day of validity

 

[RJ]

I agree.

"The Manual" might help:

Not really, if a ticket is valid for two days, surely the "Valid until" date should be shown as the date following the "Start Date?" One "day" in this context is 00:00 until 04:29 the following day is it not?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . if a ticket is valid for two days, surely the "Valid until" date should be shown as the date following the "Start Date?" . . .

It should. You are quite correct.

I seem to recall reading that ticket issuing systems, including TVMs, would be printing the, er, clarified details correctly.
But since then, I have also read that not all machines (incl on-board Avantix printers) have been fully and adequately updated.

[My post was actually an attempt to clarify the intended revisions; I agree that the physical revisions fall short of those aspirations and that this failure is an illustration of a significant failure within ATOC and its members to implement its agreed aspirations in any binding form. Probably not the first time that ATOC's ageed and approved aspirations have failed to reach Points of Sale!]

 

[4SRKT]

What planet are you on? You can't sack someone for misreading a ticket and having a slightly off attitude.

Why not, if their job is correctly reading tickets and displaying good customer service?

Some railway staff seem genuinely to believe that their service industry alone is immune from the need to treat customers with respect. This is seen day in day out from some of the posters on these forums, whose view is little more than that all passengers are potential cheats unless proved otherwise. Unbelievable.

 

[AlterEgo]

So someone gets sacked for one error?

 

[RJ]

Why not, if their job is correctly reading tickets and displaying good customer service?

Some railway staff seem genuinely to believe that their service industry alone is immune from the need to treat customers with respect. This is seen day in day out from some of the posters on these forums, whose view is little more than that all passengers are potential cheats unless proved otherwise. Unbelievable.

Treating people with respect and making a mistake are not mutually exclusive.

 

[jon0844]

Nobody will get sacked on the say so of an angry customer! If a company has had loads of complaints, or the person is on a last warning, it may happen - but that won't be down to the actions of that single complaint.

I'd be terrified to learn that someone got the boot for what could be a one-off mistake. But if it's a common problem and I've just become the 'final straw' then I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I don't agree. The mistake made was so ridiculous that I reckon the vast majority of people would have done exactly what the OP did.

There is no mention of any money being demanded, and the person did go and check with the ticket office and let the OP through in the end.

It's incredible that this happened, but all this talk of disciplining someone and even dismissing them base don what we know of just one incident is way over the top.

Trial by forum at it's very worst I'm afraid.

All I can say is I disagree.
Is it really that difficult to look at the valid until line on a ticket?
And I also thinking you are underestimating how much people trust railway staff.
What would have happened if the OP had been at a station where there was only one member of staff? There wouldn't have been anyone else to have a second look at the ticket, and judging from the OP's comments (yes, I know we only have one version of events and should be cautious because of that) the guy still thought he was in the right even after he was told otherwise!

While I think saying the person should be sacked is very harsh, they certainly do need a talking to from up above! At the very least to make sure the person doesn't keep making the same mistake.

 

[GB]

Why not, if their job is correctly reading tickets and displaying good customer service?

Some railway staff seem genuinely to believe that their service industry alone is immune from the need to treat customers with respect. This is seen day in day out from some of the posters on these forums, whose view is little more than that all passengers are potential cheats unless proved otherwise. Unbelievable.

Mr perfect I presume? Should you get the sack in your line of work for what could be a one off mistake?

Disciplinary (if required) should be proportionate to the alleged offense.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Why not, if their job is correctly reading tickets and displaying good customer service?

Some railway staff seem genuinely to believe that their service industry alone is immune from the need to treat customers with respect. This is seen day in day out from some of the posters on these forums, whose view is little more than that all passengers are potential cheats unless proved otherwise. Unbelievable.

You said you made mistakes, should you be sacked for them? After all it is your job, I presume, to get things right.

 

[Barn]

Mistakes are OK. I doubt the OP would ever have made this post if the chap had admitted his mistake. The problem often experienced is a real stubbornness - the "I do this for a living" attitude. This combined with a ticket gate in front of you can leave passengers feeling really frustrated, worried, wrongly accused and, well, trapped. The fact that no apology was forthcoming at all when the gate was finally opened is the worst bit of the story for me, and I can definitely see why the OP would want to escalate this.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I am very disappointed in reading this thread by the number of people, many of them staff, who have previously shown absolutely no flexibility in their approach to the application of the rules, with regard to possible mistakes made by passengers, but who are now being very negative about criticism of the mistake being made by this member of staff. I certainly don't support the view that the chap in question should be sacked - grossly excessive - but it was a very poor response on his part and, even after he had checked, it was an example of personal opinion being used as a substitute for the published rules and restrictions.

 

[jon0844]

Just press the plunger and walk out/in - then see what he'd do!

Yes, it could involve calling BTP (so I wouldn't really advise it) - but more likely, he'd try and save face by shouting something to get the last word and then move on! To do any more would mean bringing other people in, and that would of course highlight HIS mistake.

A bit severe perhaps, but if you felt trapped and had done nothing wrong then I'd call it an emergency!

 

[mallard]

I am very disappointed in reading this thread by the number of people, many of them staff, who have previously shown absolutely no flexibility in their approach to the application of the rules, with regard to possible mistakes made by passengers, but who are now being very negative about criticism of the mistake being made by this member of staff. I certainly don't support the view that the chap in question should be sacked - grossly excessive - but it was a very poor response on his part and, even after he had checked, it was an example of personal opinion being used as a substitute for the published rules and restrictions.

Quite. Isn't it odd how whenever there's a whiff of criticism against any member of the railway staff the "staff defence force" spring to their defence and accuse everyone else of "staff bashing", while when a passenger makes a mistake the same people are chanting "rules is rules" and proclaiming that the passenger is "obviously trying it on".

Of course this staff member won't be sacked. He was doing exactly what his employer want him to do; extract as much money from the travelling public as possible. The fact that he chose to do this via intimidation and lies shows initiative on his part and is more likely grounds for promotion than sacking.

 

[WestCoast]

This reminds me of my experience on a Stagecoach bus last week. I asked for an area dayrider, which I have bought without issue hundreds of times and the driver said it didn't exist. He wouldn't look either and sold me a more expensive ticket. I was fuming, especially considering there aren't that many bus tickets! Got an OK response from customer services.

I can understand mistakes with more complex matters (of which there are many in rail ticketing), but I expect very basic knowledge such as this be held by every member of staff. If not, SWT needs to look very closely at their training policies and where they are going wrong.

 

[SWTCommuter]

Post 58 makes it easy for any regular user of Southampton Central to identify the individual involved. In my experience he is neither unhelpful nor impolite, quite the opposite in fact.

As he can be identified, some of the more colourfully worded posts in this thread are potentially libellous.

 

[GarethW]

To those saying we should not judge the staff member based on one mistake, I will just suggest one thing. Many people would not have the knowledge or confidence to argue with a member of staff like that. Many people would have just paid up. A staff member claiming an obviously in date ticket has expired is simply unacceptable and at the very least the person involved should be given a firm talking to.

Exactly. No arguments about this, it isn't a complex issue involving split ticketing or somesuch, its basic.

Most SWT staff are very good, but from time to time you do find one with a shocking hole in their basic knowlege.

Examples this year include the gateline man at Basingstoke who didn't want to let me break my journey on the way back on a Fareham-Thatcham day return! And the guard who refused to sell me a Weekend First upgrade from Waterloo-Fareham because I wasn't on a train that went direct to Fareham.

 

[Greenback]

You ar enot being entirely fair here, Mallard. The responses 'defending' the member of staff have to be seen in the context of the demands that they be sacked despite posters not knowing details of the person, the training they have received, or any problems they may be having.

It would be an equally disproportianate response to demand that a passenger be prosecuted for fare evasion having mistakenly boarded a train.

I also don't see any evidence of intimidation or lies. The employee merely informed someone, in error, that their ticket was no longer valid. There were no threats, no demands for money and they even went to check at the ticket office, which resulted in them letting the OP through.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can understand mistakes with more complex matters (of which there are many in rail ticketing), but I expect very basic knowledge such as this be held by every member of staff. If not, SWT needs to look very closely at their training policies and where they are going wrong.

Exactly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Post 58 makes it easy for any regular user of Southampton Central to identify the individual involved. In my experience he is neither unhelpful nor impolite, quite the opposite in fact.

As he can be identified, some of the more colourfully worded posts in this thread are potentially libellous.

Indeed. Most of what has been said against the person concerned cannot be justified on the facts that have been presented.

Exactly. No arguments about this, it isn't a complex issue involving split ticketing or somesuch, its basic.

Most SWT staff are very good, but from time to time you do find one with a shocking hole in their basic knowlege.

The question needs to be asked as to why there is a gap in knowledge.

Examples this year include the gateline man at Basingstoke who didn't want to let me break my journey on the way back on a Fareham-Thatcham day return! And the guard who refused to sell me a Weekend First upgrade from Waterloo-Fareham because I wasn't on a train that went direct to Fareham.

These are all pretty basic mistakes as well. As they involve people in different roels and different locations, it must surely raise the issue of whether SWT's training, staff briefings and communication processes are as good as they might be.

Unfortunately, it is not just on the railway where people automatically assume that when a member of staff makes a mistake, it is incompetence, stupidity, or them being deliberately obstructive, and that they shoud be dismissed immediately.

 

[yorkie]

Mistakes are OK. I doubt the OP would ever have made this post if the chap had admitted his mistake. The problem often experienced is a real stubbornness - the "I do this for a living" attitude. This combined with a ticket gate in front of you can leave passengers feeling really frustrated, worried, wrongly accused and, well, trapped. The fact that no apology was forthcoming at all when the gate was finally opened is the worst bit of the story for me, and I can definitely see why the OP would want to escalate this.

Totally agree. It should be escalated (and I'd be happy to proof read the letter).

Talk of someone being "sacked" for this is nonsense - TOCs allow many instances of bad customer service before someone is sacked, based on what I've been informed! Not only that, but on many TOCs after several, numerous instances of poor attitude toward customers, staff are generally switched to non-customer facing roles rather than sacked. Obviously it will vary by TOC. There's no way this one incident is going to result in a sacking so there's no point in the possibility even being considered.

 

[33011]

Today i was travelling from Southampton to Waterloo on the return half of an Off Peak Return, start date 11 Oct 2011. The ticket did not open the barrier so I asked the attendant to let me through. His response - "Your ticket has expired sir".

I pointed out that the Valid Until date was 10 Nov 2011. "Your ticket has expired sir".

I asked why he thought it had expired when the Valid Until date was over three weeks away. "You are only allowed to make one journey, so now it has expired".

I told him, through gritted teeth, that I had made the outward journey on Tues and was now returning to London, i.e. one return journey. With this he took the ticket over to the booking office. Not sure what he said to them (he certainly mentioned expired) but they did something with their machine and told him the ticket was still valid.

Finally, he handed the ticket back and opened the barrier whilst still going on about the ticket being expired after one journey.

I do not know whether he did not understand the meaning of 'expired' or the concept of a return journey, or even both. What I do know is, that if I had arrived closer to the departure time of my train this person's incompetance might have caused me to miss it. This ticket was, of course, not resticted to a specific train, but my ticket home from London was.

Is there any point in complaining to SWT about this (I did go to the Staion Supervisor's office in Southampton, but it was unmanned) or would I just get a standard fob-off response ?

Just a thought but did you have a mobile phone or anything electrical/magnetic anywhere near your ticket.If so this will corupt the strip on the back of the ticket and the ticket will not work in the barriers.Working in an SWT ticket office i have seen this many times. Being taken to the ticket office is a good idea because the STAR ticketing system can read the ticket and tell excactly what time and at what station barriers it has been used at.You would be amazed how many times people have not had their tickets checked for example putting their ticket in the barrier one end to find barriers open at the other and try to use the same ticket again.

 

[GB]

You ar enot being entirely fair here, Mallard. The responses 'defending' the member of staff have to be seen in the context of the demands that they be sacked despite posters not knowing details of the person, the training they have received, or any problems they may be having.

It would be an equally disproportianate response to demand that a passenger be prosecuted for fare evasion having mistakenly boarded a train.

I also don't see any evidence of intimidation or lies. The employee merely informed someone, in error, that their ticket was no longer valid. There were no threats, no demands for money and they even went to check at the ticket office, which resulted in them letting the OP through.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Exactly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Indeed. Most of what has been said against the person concerned cannot be justified on the facts that have been presented.



The question needs to be asked as to why there is a gap in knowledge.



These are all pretty basic mistakes as well. As they involve people in different roels and different locations, it must surely raise the issue of whether SWT's training, staff briefings and communication processes are as good as they might be.

Unfortunately, it is not just on the railway where people automatically assume that when a member of staff makes a mistake, it is incompetence, stupidity, or them being deliberately obstructive, and that they shoud be dismissed immediately.

Spot On!

 

[wintonian]

Post 58 makes it easy for any regular user of Southampton Central to identify the individual involved. In my experience he is neither unhelpful nor impolite, quite the opposite in fact.

As he can be identified, some of the more colourfully worded posts in this thread are potentially libellous.

Indeed as soon as I read that part of the post I knew immediately who it was likely to be, and I can't say that I have ever had much of an issue with them, mind you I can't really remember having dealt with them but considering how often I use Southampton Central I must have on occasion.

 

[sheff1]

Just a thought but did you have a mobile phone or anything electrical/magnetic anywhere near your ticket.If so this will corupt the strip on the back of the ticket and the ticket will not work in the barriers.Working in an SWT ticket office i have seen this many times. Being taken to the ticket office is a good idea because the STAR ticketing system can read the ticket and tell excactly what time and at what station barriers it has been used at.You would be amazed how many times people have not had their tickets checked for example putting their ticket in the barrier one end to find barriers open at the other and try to use the same ticket again.

Ah, so that is what they did in the ticket office then. Clearly that check showed the return portion of my ticket was unused.

Even more disappointing, in that case, that he continued to talk about the ticket being expired after one journey when the fact that it had not be used at all had been confirmed. As someone correctly said, if he had apologised for his mistake I would not have made the post in the first place, but his ongoing comments suggested that he didn't even accept he was mistaken.

I am surprised that some people still seem to be under the impression the person was rude or intimidatory. As I said in post #58, he was polite at all times. It is his lack of knowledge and apparent unwillingness to accept he was mistaken which concerns me, and it is this which I highlighted in my email to SWT Customer Services.

Now I just await their response to see whether it is a fob off or not.

PS I never keep my tickets next to a mobile phone.

 

[33011]

Ah, so that is what they did in the ticket office then. Clearly that check showed the return portion of my ticket was unused.

Even more disappointing, in that case, that he continued to talk about the ticket being expired after one journey when the fact that it had not be used at all had been confirmed. As someone correctly said, if he had apologised for his mistake I would not have made the post in the first place, but his ongoing comments suggested that he didn't even accept he was mistaken.

I am surprised that some people still seem to be under the impression the person was rude or intimidatory. As I said in post #58, he was polite at all times. It is his lack of knowledge and apparent unwillingness to accept he was mistaken which concerns me, and it is this which I highlighted in my email to SWT Customer Services.

Now I just await their response which may or may not be the fob off anticipated in the first response to the OP.

PS I never keep my tickets next to a mobile phone.

Did you know that you do not have to continue your return journey the same day with some off peak (saver return) tickets. for example if you bought a London Terminals to Bournemouth on Monday (outward journey has to be on date shown) you could travel to say Southampton Tuesday spend the night stop off at Eastleigh on Wednesday etc etc as long as you continue in the London direction and not go back on yourself the ticket is valid.

 

[sheff1]

Did you know that you do not have to continue your return journey the same day with some off peak (saver return) tickets. for example if you bought a London Terminals to Bournemouth on Monday (outward journey has to be on date shown) you could travel to say Southampton Tuesday spend the night stop off at Eastleigh on Wednesday etc etc as long as you continue in the London direction and not go back on yourself the ticket is valid.

Yes, I do know that. I wonder if the barrier attendants at these stations do

 

[mallard]

I also don't see any evidence of intimidation or lies. The employee merely informed someone, in error, that their ticket was no longer valid. There were no threats, no demands for money and they even went to check at the ticket office, which resulted in them letting the OP through.

Where I come from, telling somebody something untrue is called a "lie". Unless you are saying that the ticket had "expired" the staff member certainly lied, whether deliberately or not.

The very fact that a unformed person in authority made the "mistake" is tantamount to intimidation. I'm sure that if the OP had not kicked up a fuss and insisted that his ticket was valid, he would have been made to pay a PF. Considering how many people know very little of the rules about rail tickets, I'd expect that this "mistake" works in around 90% of cases.

I'm not asking or expecting the staff member to be fired, but the whole "revenue protection" system is heavily weighted in favour of TOCs and open to abuse. Short of passing revenue protection to an independent body, which will never happen, TOCs will continue to tacitly condone, encourage and reward such behaviour.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Where I come from, telling somebody something untrue is called a "lie". Unless you are saying that the ticket had "expired" the staff member certainly lied, whether deliberately or not.

A lie is an intentional untruth. This clearly was not intentional, so not a lie.

 

[mallard]

A lie is an intentional untruth. This clearly was not intentional, so not a lie.

A quick look at definitions on the 'net shows that while that is a common definition, it's not universal.

Besides, I doubt that it is as "clear" as you say. Odd that staff rarely make mistakes that don't benefit their employers...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Are you seriously suggesting that SWT are encouraging gateline staff to lie about ticket validates?!