Maths in Schools

[ainsworth74]

Oh and PS: Hours, Minutes, Seconds.... Not everything is decimalised sweetie...

And it makes life bloody annoying sometimes!

Also as a footnote, don't call me sweetie, I don't even know your real name

That;s how distances are still measured on the Railways. On the traditional lines at least; i don't know if HS1 has got Metric.

Good point, forgot about that but the number of people that need to know and understand those measures is fairly small and certainly not enough for it to be considered a problem that they don't get taught it in school.

 

[Zoe]

And it makes life bloody annoying sometimes!

You'd prefer to say a certain train journey takes one kilosecond?

 

[ainsworth74]

You'd prefer to say a certain train journey takes one kilosecond?

No I'm just being facetious Zoe

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes you can, this is why the good lord gave us log tables.

Indeed.
And the slide-rule, which was less precise but more intuitive.

I completely agree that if one doesn't have a wealth of experience in manipulating numbers, then they're unlikely to spot that they'd made a silly mistake with the calculator.
I often use visual representations of values (rather than just the numbers) to get a quick approximation - even just looking at a clock face can help if I equate each value to a proportion of the full 360degree circle.

 

[Mvann]

That;s how distances are still measured on the Railways. On the traditional lines at least; i don't know if HS1 has got Metric.

Roads are still measured in miles and speed is still mph. Also beer is still measured in pints and gallons.

 

[Zoe]

Roads are still measured in miles

Only for the information road users see on signs. In engineering terms it's done in metric. Also when approaching roadworks the sign saying 200 yards I believe is actually placed at 200 metres.

 

[WestCoast]

Roads are still measured in miles and speed is still mph. Also beer is still measured in pints and gallons.

Interestingly, the only way to know that you are crossing from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland is when the speed limit signs change to kmph. A pint would be a 500ml beer in mainland Europe - or a "large" - except in Germany where a "Stein" or 1 litre is more common as the large size.

A bit off topic, but I guess driving and drinking (not at the same time!) all involves maths....

 

[Zoe]

A bit off topic, but I guess driving and drinking (not at the same time!) all involves maths....

How many people actually look at road signs these days and not just do everything the sat-nav tells them to?

 

[Mvann]

Anyway, formulas for volume, area, diameter, etc are the same weather in imperial or metric. Pi r squared is still the same for cm, inches, feet and metres.

 

[Zoe]

Anyway, formulas for volume, area, diameter, etc are the same weather in imperial or metric. Pi r squared is still the same for cm, inches, feet and metres.

You just have to be sure you do mix units like Lockheed Martin and NASA did back in 1999 which resulted in the loss of a Mars Orbiter.

 

[Badger]

Anyway, formulas for volume, area, diameter, etc are the same weather in imperial or metric. Pi r squared is still the same for cm, inches, feet and metres.

But not radians.

 

[Nym]

But not radians.

As I hinted at before with anuglar velocity... Thats always fun to deal with, as is anything involving AC (as a rather long post for someone's info stated before)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No, a chain is 22 yards. That's 66 feet.

Well spotted, Zoe. Incidentally, the length of a cricket pitch between wickets in the originally written official rules was deemed to be one chain...or 22 yards.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

One thing that has come up in this thread is the mention of metrication, which although is used quite alot in this country, the United Kingdom has never offcially changed to the metric system unlike when we changed from proper money, LSD, to the decimal system.

At school we used both systems although I prefer to use imperial, I find it easier to visualise say 1 pound of sugar or 6 inches, rather than half a kilo or about 15 cms.

I see too from this thread that Kilometers are used now in Ireland, what quantities do they buy beer in is it pints or half litre glasses?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Everything we did in a my lessons at school was taught in metric, however, in normal conversation anywhere else (in school or out of it), pupils always, always used imperial. I still do.

 

[Bungle73]

One thing that has come up in this thread is the mention of metrication, which although is used quite alot in this country, the United Kingdom has never offcially changed to the metric system unlike when we changed from proper money, LSD, to the decimal system.

At school we used both systems although I prefer to use imperial, I find it easier to visualise say 1 pound of sugar or 6 inches, rather than half a kilo or about 15 cms.

I see too from this thread that Kilometers are used now in Ireland, what quantities do they buy beer in is it pints or half litre glasses?

"Proper money"? LOL! You're dating yourself with that remark. I'd far rather have what we have now. The old system is too complicated; I don't know how anyone managed with it tbh.

Most things I work in metric (imperial measurement mean nothing to me)....except for long distances, because roads signs etc. are in imperial.

 

[SS4]

One thing that has come up in this thread is the mention of metrication, which although is used quite alot in this country, the United Kingdom has never offcially changed to the metric system unlike when we changed from proper money, LSD, to the decimal system.

At school we used both systems although I prefer to use imperial, I find it easier to visualise say 1 pound of sugar or 6 inches, rather than half a kilo or about 15 cms.

I see too from this thread that Kilometers are used now in Ireland, what quantities do they buy beer in is it pints or half litre glasses?

Proper money? You have to be kidding. Any objective observer can see that decimalisation was a good move (I wonder how the Americans stationed here in the war managed )
I find it easier to visualise a kilogram of sugar than I do a pound and I imagine many others of my generation do too
Metric's big advantage comes from that it's not really metric but, with a few exceptions, the système internationale or SI and therefore the SI prefixes can be used to scale. How do you express 589 nanometers in imperial measures? (sodium yellow iirc)

But that's getting off the point. As Nym said earlier it's not about metric or imperial but more about "basic" maths not being taught

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

People just cba. I am in top set Year 9 and half my set are good-for-nothings who never put in every effort, and there's 6 sets below mine!
Bring back the whip may be a controversial, yet useful, option.

 

[SS4]

People just cba. I am in top set Year 9 and half my set are good-for-nothings who never put in every effort, and there's 6 sets below mine!
Bring back the whip may be a controversial, yet useful, option.

Using fear to motivate? Could work but isn't that what the Church is for?

I share your frustration though, I had the same problem when I was in school: people who couldn't be arsed and were hell bent on causing disruption wasting valuable time. In the end only four people took higher maths at GCSE from the entire year...
Perhaps a better option would be to see who wants to do maths voluntarily and put them together (I'm assuming here that most of those who want to do it are of similar ability). I reckon it would improve the atmosphere

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Using fear to motivate? Could work but isn't that what the Church is for?

I share your frustration though, I had the same problem when I was in school: people who couldn't be arsed and were hell bent on causing disruption wasting valuable time. In the end only four people took higher maths at GCSE from the entire year...
Perhaps a better option would be to see who wants to do maths voluntarily and put them together (I'm assuming here that most of those who want to do it are of similar ability). I reckon it would improve the atmosphere

Sort of. I'm one of the higher level students, but there's one person from Pakistan who dominates over everyone else. It may, however, take away the bit of fun we can have in class sometimes.
Stupidity classes = crap marks.
Boring classes = crap marks.
A mix of learning and fun in classes = good marks.

 

[Ivo]

I despair at the high number of students at my University who cannot do simple arithmetic. These people are supposed to be the teachers of tomorrow (OK, not literally tomorrow ), and yet their arithmetic would be no better than the 7-year-olds they would be teaching.

I do wonder sometimes what the University would say if I told them to set at University-wide arithmetic test, with the idea being that a University student should be capable of scoring at least x percent. I can only imagine what kind of scores people would typically score here...

On the subject of arithmetic and the like, did anyone else here ever do the Maths Challenge at school? I entered four times and never failed to score a Gold, and in three cases out of four I qualified for the international competition...

Lastly, there is at least one part of maths taught at high school that is useful - Pythagoras. Complain all you want, but if you look at an atlas and need to determine how far apart two places but have nothing to go on other than a basic scale it certainly does work!

Well spotted, Zoe. Incidentally, the length of a cricket pitch between wickets in the originally written official rules was deemed to be one chain...or 22 yards.

I wonder how many players of the modern game actually realise this Similarly, although never intentionally documented (to my knowledge), the distance between the goal line and the edge of the "D" on a football pitch is one chain, and the distance between the sides of the penalty area is two chains.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

UKMT challenge? One Silver, one bronze, and awaiting my y9vy11 score

 

[Schnellzug]

Everything we did in a my lessons at school was taught in metric, however, in normal conversation anywhere else (in school or out of it), pupils always, always used imperial. I still do.

I don't think people really have too much of a problem either way; the insistence by Euro harmonisation-enthusiasts that Metric must be used for everything because the Kids don't understand the old fashioned measurements is a bit untrue, I'd say; ask someone how tall they are and I bet they'd say "five foot eight and a half" or whatever, not "1.69 m", but then they'll often say that something was two metres away (even if they may not have much idea how long a Metre is exactly).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I despair at the high number of students at my University who cannot do simple arithmetic. These people are supposed to be the teachers of tomorrow (OK, not literally tomorrow ), and yet their arithmetic would be no better than the 7-year-olds they would be teaching.

I do wonder sometimes what the University would say if I told them to set at University-wide arithmetic test, with the idea being that a University student should be capable of scoring at least x percent. I can only imagine what kind of scores people would typically score here... .

I think even I might be able to manage x percent. Ask for anything over L, though, and you might be asking a bit much.
And if anyone gets C, then I'm afraid I would not talk to them again.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't think people really have too much of a problem either way; the insistence by Euro harmonisation-enthusiasts that Metric must be used for everything because the Kids don't understand the old fashioned measurements is a bit untrue, I'd say; ask someone how tall they are and I bet they'd say "five foot eight and a half" or whatever, not "1.69 m", but then they'll often say that something was two metres away (even if they may not have much idea how long a Metre is exactly).

Naturally, because of the mish-mash of systems employed, most people sort of flip between the two systems. Young people understand many of the imperial measurements but not always the relationship between imperial and metric measurements.

A few months ago, I was filling in a form for height and it asked for height in metres and cms. I know it, but others who were with me didn't have a clue. Likewise with rough conversions from KM to miles.

Having lived abroad in mainland Europe for a while, you sort of realise the legacy of imperial measurements in Britain - people told you long distances in KMs, height/dimensions in metres, weight in g/KGs e.t.c. Whereas here you would hear miles, feet/inches in everyday conversation e.t.c.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Everything we did in a my lessons at school was taught in metric, however, in normal conversation anywhere else (in school or out of it), pupils always, always used imperial. I still do.

What about fluid pints/ounces?

A pint fair enough, but what about a 500ml bottle of water vs a just under 18 ounces bottle of water? I can't remember what they put on the labels with regards to ounces.

I know it's a contrived example, but I don't think people consciously take notice of imperial and metric.

 

[Ivo]

Alas, too few people know how to convert between the two these days.

People might be able to tell you that a mile is 1.6km - but never mind the fact that it is only an approximation (1.6093), it is also a rather basic example.

 

[Schnellzug]

Alas, too few people know how to convert between the two these days.

People might be able to tell you that a mile is 1.6km - but never mind the fact that it is only an approximation (1.6093), it is also a rather basic example.

Surely that's all you need to know, unless you're a cartographer or you're plotting navigation for some very precise purpose. As a basic rule of thumb, 100 km ~ 60 miles, 160 km ~ 100 miles, 200 km ~ 125 miles is quite enough for most everyday Purposes, I'd say.

 

[SS4]

Alas, too few people know how to convert between the two these days.

People might be able to tell you that a mile is 1.6km - but never mind the fact that it is only an approximation (1.6093), it is also a rather basic example.

It's never sensible to change between the two of them though. One should work wholly in either one or the other.

 

[David Goddard]

It looks like we have two discussions here.

Firstly, that children are do simple arithmetic, the second along the lines of the changes in the units.

It should not make any difference what the units are, be they feet, metres, pints, litres, Pounds, Kilos, raisins, bananas or Crinkley Bottom Groats, 4x9 will always equal 36 while 7x8 will always equal 56.

We comment on the irrelevence of trigonometry etc, but it is suprising how all of a sudden these kind of calculations present themselves. I have used Trigonometry and Pythagoras' theorem in both model railway and garden design in the last few years.

Some things will always be imperial. A butcher will make his sausages at 2oz, while an average sized egg will weigh the same.

I'm just off to the pub for 568ml of bitter, and on the way home need to pick up 1.136l of milk.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

"Proper money"? LOL! You're dating yourself with that remark. I'd far rather have what we have now. The old system is too complicated; I don't know how anyone managed with it tbh.

Most things I work in metric (imperial measurement mean nothing to me)....except for long distances, because roads signs etc. are in imperial.

Isn't this an expression of relativism and nothing to do with number systems?

We could compare the abilities of users of number systems with the speakers of languages. Both can appear to be horribly complicated and even 'unnatural' if we approach them later in life, but when we are immersed in them from birth, then we just aquire them and can't help ourselves from aquiring them. Speakers of Mandarin and French might find each others' languages very difficult, but neither of them will have made the same complaint about their own language.
Isn't it the same with number systems? I can tell you that there was nothing complicated about simple sums in 'old money', because people who worked quickly with those sums were never making the conversion between decimal and duodecimal values. (e.g. 3 times 7 old pence was not calculated by an intermediate conversion of 21 pence to shillings. There were 2 ways of multiplying them entirely within the duodecimal system and the 3rd option of simply 'knowing' or 'remembering' the answer).

[EDIT - after thought]
In fact, one of the strengths of the old system was that it was actually easier for some trivial mental arithmetic than the decimal equivalent. For example, you could easily divide values in pounds by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 12 and get whole answers (which could then be multiplied if necessary e.g. three fifths) and the variant on the pound, the guinea, allowed simple division by the other integers 7 and 9. We just can't do that with decimal numbers, the sums produce decimal fractions, some of which are recurring.
[/EDIT]

If neuroscience ever finds any physical evidence to suggest that minds are any more able to count in tens than in any other base-number-system, then I'll eat my hats. All 1C of them.

Moving on from relativism, there might also be practical advantages in the ability to switch easily between number bases and systems. Maybe IT people are the most able to make the switches in common activities, but wide ranges of scale or different approchaes are required by specific disciplines, then it can be a great asset. e.g in music and audio, switching between a musical note, its frequency and wavelength: these are radically different scales. In distance, between meters, light years and parsecs.

I struggle to find any benefit in not developing those number skills.

 

[43021HST]

Cant stand maths, glad I never have to do any Maths lessons again, pure torture, I'm even crap at mental arithmetic, but its nothing a calculator on a phone wont fix.

I genuinely think with Maths, you can either do it or not, you have to have the right mindset, its much like art. Except art's exciting.