Public's misconceptions of the railway..Driving is easy... funny and aggravating..

[francisoldfield]

exactly right, the wheels will stop gripping effectively on the rail and you will feel the train jolt a bit (or more depending on the railhead)

 

[Searle]

At least on the trains, strange times makes sense!

My sister used to work at the University of Birmingham and told me about her rota, some years ago someone 'high up' decided that the clerical and childcare staff should work a 'standard' rota and worked this out to be 8 hours 12.5 minutes per working day.

This reminds me, each driving test is meant to be exactly 37.5 minutes long!

 

[F1Ken]

As a passenger may I say to all the drivers on here I think you do a great job. By mate is a driver and I have had rides in the cab with him and bloody hell I'm amazed how smoothly you can do it.

 

[amcluesent]

Yep, in thick fog/snow it's like pilots who rely on the instruments for navigation etc. As soon as you start doubting what the instruments are telling you a crash is almost certain.

 

[455driver]

On the brake handle you have step 1, step 2, full service, and emergency.

Or as I like to call them, boring, normal, oops, and oh ffffflip.

Lexyboy the other posters have answered all your questions correctly so no need for me to go over them again.

Further info on one point, when a train "picks up" it can vary from the wheels losing a little bit of grip and the WSP reducing the air pressure in the brake cylinders so the wheels have a chance to grip (just like anti-lock brakes on a car) this is quite a quick operation and will give the jolting you get in the front couple of coaches. In that situation the front coaches will clean the rails (and lay sand) so the rest of the wheels can grip and slow the train down. when the rail-head is really bad the wheels can lock up and slide, you then get next to no braking and when you release the brakes you get that lovely thump thump noise from the flat spots that have now been ground onto the wheels.
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As a passenger may I say to all the drivers on here I think you do a great job. By mate is a driver and I have had rides in the cab with him and bloody hell I'm amazed how smoothly you can do it.

I suppose the smoother we make it the less the passengers think about it and the easier they think it is.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I find coach driving far easier ...Route knowledge is really only about where to turn left or right.

As a fairly regular passenger on National Express over the years, it never ceased to astonish me how, on coming into London from the North, the driver would turn round and ask: "Anyone know the way to Golders Green/Victoria?"

One would have thought that the bus company could at least issue them with a map or some simple directions. It happened on an overnight Eurolines coach from Paris once and we ended up getting into Victoria about 90 mins late.

I'm glad the railways don't have such a casual attitude to route knowledge...
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I love it when I lean forward to look out of the windscreen and I cant see the rails for the fog, then look at the speedo needle on the 90mph mark. then the ping of a magnet and I know exactly where I am because I am running through the route in my head, put the brake in, slow down smoothly and hit the ramp doing the exact speed I want (either 30 or 40 depending on platform length) and then stop smoothly right on the mark.
Still makes me smile.

Out of your options most of them would go for option c), because after all our job is easy, pull a lever, push a button and drinking tea. I mean how difficult can it be?

With a name like 455driver, how come you're doing 90mph?

 

[SPADTrap]

With a name like 455driver, how come you're doing 90mph?

I'd guess the 455 isn't the only traction signed...?

 

[david_VI]

Well this thread took a life of it's own but i'm finding it very interesting Cheers all.

 

[455driver]

With a name like 455driver, how come you're doing 90mph?

I do get to play with 444,450 and 458s occasionally as well but thought that "444,450,455,458driver" would be a bit long for a user-name and I prefer driving the good old 455s!

Oh and some 455s can pick their skirt up a bit and you can get rather more than 75mph out of them on a good run , um apparently, so I have been told etc.
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Well this thread took a life of it's own but i'm finding it very interesting Cheers all.

What was it originally about, I have forgotten!
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As a fairly regular passenger on National Express over the years, it never ceased to astonish me how, on coming into London from the North, the driver would turn round and ask: "Anyone know the way to Golders Green/Victoria?"

One would have thought that the bus company could at least issue them with a map or some simple directions.

Many years ago when I was a bus driver I was spare and was asked to cover for a broken down NatEx coach and run from Wakefield to Leeds and onto Manchester, never driven to Manchester before so off I went with my 49 seater coach and eventually found the coach station to be met by a supervisor giving me a bit of paper and informing me that I had to go to Glasgow hock:, after a bit of a discussion (no mobiles back then) he realised that I wasnt going to go to Glasgow no matter what he threatened me with. I got back in the coach and went straight back to Wakefield and booked 14 hours for the day, well 12 for that day and they put 2 on the previous day to square the figures.

 

[Beveridges]

Some say its easier than Driving a car. Driving a train is much harder to learn than Driving a Car. Driving a Car took me 35 hours worth of Driving lessons to learn.
Now compare that to learning to drive a train - 25-30 weeks for a Depot Driver course (900-1100 hours) or 45-50 weeks for Mainline Driving course (1600-1750 hours working time).
No comparison whatsoever which takes the most skill (car/bus vs rail) you only have to compare at how much time you have to spend training before doing them.

 

[tirphil]

With some loco classes (60, 66. Don't know about 67's, 70's) the Westinghouse braking system is fitted and for the driver to make a full service brake application they would need to reduce the train brake pressure from 5.0 to 3.4.

The Westinghouse system permits the driver to select how much brake they want.

5.0 - Brakes fully released
4.6 - Initial brake demand (equivalent to step 1 on the D & M System)
3.4 - Full service application (equivalent to step 3 on the D & M System)
0.0 - Emergency application (A red button is hit firmly to operate)

The driver can select any demand between 4.6 and 3.4 depending of the braking characteristics of the train, the gradient, how much the speed needs to be reduced by in the distance available etc. Also, when releasing the brake, this needs to be released in stages (not all at once) and this is to prevent yucking, (sometimes called snatching) of the couplings within the train.

 

[LE Greys]

As well as the famous 'where's the steering wheel' question (something I often got asked when on the cab of one of Didcot's inactive engines - I usually directed them to the leading bogie) it's astonishing how many people just don't know how long it takes trains to stop. I remember a discussion with someone after the Great Heck accident about having some form of obstacle detector (radar, laser or whatever) sweeping the line in front of the train.

Do you have any idea what the stopping distance of one of those things is?
Oh, about 300 yards, 400 yards.
One and a half miles.
hock:

People just aren't familiar with applied physics at that sort of lof-friction levels. It's just as tricky to explain to someone why you can't sail directly into the wind, or why you can't stop in space. Not their fault, really, it requires a different way of thinking.

Still, one thing is far easier than driving on a road. You don't have to predict what ten-thousand other drivers of varying levels of ability and dozyness will do. That is, unless you count level crossings, and there probably isn't very much a driver can do under those circumstances anyway.

<EDIT> To clarify the last paragraph somewhat. I meant that it is safe to assume that someone driving a train will obey signals and speed limits and not place themselves in a dangerous position deliberately, while someone driving a car might do so on a regular basis. So you don't need to second-guess whether another driver is going to do something stupid. That doesn't make any difference to the physics I mentioned above, which makes it a much more difficult technical subject.

 

[notadriver]

I disagree LE Greys - I find driving a road vehicle be it car or coach far easier. I'm assuming you've driven trains right?

 

[LE Greys]

I disagree LE Greys - I find driving a road vehicle be it car or coach far easier. I'm assuming you've driven trains right?

Only on preserved lines, so that doesn't really count. I was commenting on one aspect, anticipating the actions of other drivers, the thing I find hardest about road driving. How many times have you seen a train suddenly accelerate, zoom past you in a braking area, signal right, cut accross the front of you and turn left, nearly killing you in the process?

 

[Robsignals]

I'm a train driver who drives coaches (not buses) on days off as a hobby. I find coach driving far easier and the main reason is the vehicle has better brakes. Its driven on line of sight. See a red light or obstruction and just press the brake. Brake a bit too late - just press the brake pedal harder. Route knowledge is really only about where to turn left or right. Add to the fact they if a coach breaks down its only holding itself up. If a train breaks down ......

So it's the long braking distances that really make train driving difficult, drivers attention has to be up to around a mile ahead of actual location so as to start braking at exactly the right place to comply with speed restrictions and make station stops. Braking too late may result in overshooting the restriction or stop but too early can lose a lot of time. Signals don't need to be anticipated, though no doubt drivers like to see them at the earliest opportunity, as ample braking distance is given from Distant/(Double where provided) Yellow to the Stop Signal. In fact excessive braking distance can be a problem, due the superior braking of modern units full braking can be delayed and a moments loss of concentration may result in an 'overshoot' or SPAD. Time isn't an issue when approaching a Signal at Danger so the brake should always be applied, if lightly, on passing the 'Distant'.

In poor visibility even near zero visibility night and fog I don't reduce speed at all! Good job the public don't have a view out the front - they would think I was reckless.

Are you saying that if signals and speed restrictions are displayed on the desk there's really no need for a cab window? Rather makes the case for Driverless trains.
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They still have to pay attention to where they're being routed though, if they don't pick up on a mis-set junction very quickly it has potential to lead to considerable disruption.

In theory yes, in practice mis-routing is so rare that drivers can be forgiven for not checking their route is correct and they do sometimes take the wrong route. In days past the signaller would usually authorise setting back even quite a way but not now - unless the stock is banned from that route have to continue until they can make a signalled reversal or, if possible, just carry-on and get diverted back to the correct route!.

An exception is Worting Jct, Feather for 3rd rail line to Southampton or no Feather for un-electrified Salisbury line but it's 90 mph either way so unrestricted Greens on approach, by the time a driver can see which way they're routed there's no chance of stopping before going well past the points if wrong. Of course it had to happen to an EMU which stopped well "off the juice" and a Diesel Loco had to be summoned from Eastleigh. Believe Flashing Yellows were installed due to a speed restriction just beyond the jct which give drivers sufficient warning providing they detect "the dog that didn't bark" when they aren't flashing but should be!

 

[Tomnick]

Making a wrong direction move following a wrong routing is still permitted in the Rule Book, and does still happen. Given that most passenger trains at least have a cab at either end, why shouldn't they?

 

[D2022]

Whilst guarding on some mk1 stock (in pres) I was showing some pax the guards comp when the woman turned round and asked why the steering wheel was in.there. can you imagine the chat we had about the periscope? Lol

 

[TDK]

No you are right, in falling or disturbed snow it is 10 below linespeed at any speed above 50, full service brake applications every 3-5 minutes and speed must be reduced by at least 10mph, (but no need if this would cause your train to stop), this last bit is aimed at freight drivers.

For disc braked trains, if you were doing 51mph in a 67 & stock and put it in full service you would almost come to a stand by the time the brakes has released.
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I used to work in an office, phone off the hook, deleting all the emails so I can watch p++n all day on the computer, right old ugly birds working in there that I wouldnt touch with a barge pole, switching money into my slush account when I wanted a new ferrari.

Yep working in an office is a nightmare!
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Route knowledge, route knowledge, route knowledge.

Yes I am very comfortable doing this, I need to be, and as long as everything is normal- correct signal aspects, reasonable rail-head etc then business as normal, lose my bearings and the brake goes in and knock the speed right down until I get them back.

Most of the questions trainees ask during training get the same 2 word answer- route knowledge, and do you know something, they are right route knowledge is king.

I had a new trainee out for a cab experience ride the other morning, bit misty and slippery (first train over the route) and he commented that I was talking to him calmly when we couldnt see very far and the train was sliding a little bit and he had noticed this with the other drivers, I said its because this is exactly what I was expecting on this trip so am prepared for it but you wait and see what happens if the train picks up, I will go silent and ignore you, no offence meant though. Luckily or unluckily depending on your viewpoint the train didnt pick up so he could experience it.

Oh did I mention that route knowledge is king?

I didn't realise you could have people accompanying you in the cab when your Post Qualified?
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In theory yes, in practice mis-routing is so rare that drivers can be forgiven for not checking their route is correct and they do sometimes take the wrong route. In days past the signaller would usually authorise setting back even quite a way but not now - unless the stock is banned from that route have to continue until they can make a signalled reversal or, if possible, just carry-on and get diverted back to the correct route!.

Wrong routing as we call it is not rare I would say somewhere on the network it happens every day, there are many parameters whether a driver will change ends and return behind the signal the most common being route knowledge, if the driver does not have the route knowledge over the route they will not be permited to continue

 

[Robsignals]

Making a wrong direction move following a wrong routing is still permitted in the Rule Book, and does still happen. Given that most passenger trains at least have a cab at either end, why shouldn't they?

Depends, if the rear of the train stops in the Overlap (typically 200 m) of the junction Signal then the preceeding signal will have been at Red since the incident train passed and it will be safe to set back, if not that signal can have been at yellow and the driver of a following train may have seen a Double Yellow or Green that authorises them to proceed up to the junction Signal. The signaller has to follow stringent procedures to ensure an unsignalled setting back movement is protected from any risk of collision with a following train and if it was closely following that may be impossible.
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Wrong routing as we call it is not rare I would say somewhere on the network it happens every day, there are many parameters whether a driver will change ends and return behind the signal the most common being route knowledge, if the driver does not have the route knowledge over the route they will not be permited to continue

Must be quite rare for any one driver though. The most important factor is they are, usually, unsignalled movements so protection relies entirely on the signaller following correct procedure, unless all the conditions are met the move can't be authorised as there's a small but real risk of collision with a following train.

 

[notadriver]

So it's the long braking distances that really make train driving difficult, drivers attention has to be up to around a mile ahead of actual location so as to start braking at exactly the right place to comply with speed restrictions and make station stops. Braking too late may result in overshooting the restriction or stop but too early can lose a lot of time. Signals don't need to be anticipated, though no doubt drivers like to see them at the earliest opportunity, as ample braking distance is given from Distant/(Double where provided) Yellow to the Stop Signal. In fact excessive braking distance can be a problem, due the superior braking of modern units full braking can be delayed and a moments loss of concentration may result in an 'overshoot' or SPAD. Time isn't an issue when approaching a Signal at Danger so the brake should always be applied, if lightly, on passing the 'Distant'.



Are you saying that if signals and speed restrictions are displayed on the desk there's really no need for a cab window? Rather makes the case for Driverless trains.

If they could get rid of train drivers and make it all driverless they would have done it already. They can't and train drivers will be around for sometime yet. ERTMS is some way off from being installed nationally.

I brake in accordance with the companies instructions for the type of traction I'm driving and complying with the defensive driving policy. Braking areas are learned when doing routes as are route risks such as low adhesion areas, signals which have late sighting, read across risks, etc etc. We are not meant to use the full braking capability of the train in normal running.

 

[455driver]

For disc braked trains, if you were doing 51mph in a 67 & stock and put it in full service you would almost come to a stand by the time the brakes has released.

I can only speak for disc braked units, I dont sign loco.

I didn't realise you could have people accompanying you in the cab when your Post Qualified?

You cant unless being conducted/ piloted.
There are a couple of other possibilities as well.
What makes you think I am post qualified?
I have been driving for 4 years, okay not long in the scheme of things but long enough to have a rough idea whats going on.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

With some loco classes (60, 66. Don't know about 67's, 70's) the Westinghouse braking system is fitted and for the driver to make a full service brake application they would need to reduce the train brake pressure from 5.0 to 3.4.

The Westinghouse system permits the driver to select how much brake they want.

5.0 - Brakes fully released
4.6 - Initial brake demand (equivalent to step 1 on the D & M System)
3.4 - Full service application (equivalent to step 3 on the D & M System)
0.0 - Emergency application (A red button is hit firmly to operate)

The driver can select any demand between 4.6 and 3.4 depending of the braking characteristics of the train, the gradient, how much the speed needs to be reduced by in the distance available etc. Also, when releasing the brake, this needs to be released in stages (not all at once) and this is to prevent yucking, (sometimes called snatching) of the couplings within the train.

That's how a 67 works too. I've found after driving them regularly for a couple of years that it's easy just to get a 'feel' for the brake too, which is quite important as gradients are a much bigger factor in loco hauled air braked trains than they are on a DMU.
Another thing about a 67 & DVT in passenger service is just how different the train feels depending on which end you are at. Obviously the cab is completely different and the DVT brake has steps on it, but you have to take into account the delay in which the brake force takes as it moves through the train, and the fact that so much of the weight and brake force of the train is a couple of hundred yards behind you at the very rear. It is so odd compared to how a DMU feels, and I cannot begin to comprehend how to explain how it would feel to somebody who only has experience of driving a car or van.

 

[Tomnick]

Depends, if the rear of the train stops in the Overlap (typically 200 m) of the junction Signal then the preceeding signal will have been at Red since the incident train passed and it will be safe to set back, if not that signal can have been at yellow and the driver of a following train may have seen a Double Yellow or Green that authorises them to proceed up to the junction Signal. The signaller has to follow stringent procedures to ensure an unsignalled setting back movement is protected from any risk of collision with a following train and if it was closely following that may be impossible.

Even if the train stops beyond the overlap of the protecting signal, the wrong direction movement can still be made as long as a signal in rear can be replaced to Danger (with no train approaching!). It does, as you say, get more complicated if there is a closely following train, but even then it might be possible to get the train over the junction if the offending train has passed clear, or it might be necessary to set the second one back first. There's more risk of something going wrong with an unsignalled move of course (and not just involving a following train), which is why it's important to follow the procedures laid down in the Rule Book (get someone to check the route if possible, use reminder appliances etc.).

Wrong routes happen relatively frequently for various reasons (confusion, schedule error, wrong description received, auto button left in etc.), but it's less common for Drivers to actually take them (which is where their route knowledge comes in, and most importantly understanding of the approach control arrangements approaching a given junction) unless there's no way of knowing that a wrong route has been set until it's too late.

 

[tirphil]

That's how a 67 works too. I've found after driving them regularly for a couple of years that it's easy just to get a 'feel' for the brake too, which is quite important as gradients are a much bigger factor in loco hauled air braked trains than they are on a DMU.
Another thing about a 67 & DVT in passenger service is just how different the train feels depending on which end you are at. Obviously the cab is completely different and the DVT brake has steps on it, but you have to take into account the delay in which the brake force takes as it moves through the train, and the fact that so much of the weight and brake force of the train is a couple of hundred yards behind you at the very rear. It is so odd compared to how a DMU feels, and I cannot begin to comprehend how to explain how it would feel to somebody who only has experience of driving a car or van.

'Feel', You are spot on there. I have never driven a DVT but the points you make and the differences you describe are not dissimilar to those you get from driving freight trains of varying lengths, weights, wagon types and so on.

 

[Robsignals]

If they could get rid of train drivers and make it all driverless they would have done it already. They can't and train drivers will be around for sometime yet. ERTMS is some way off from being installed nationally.

Victoria Line has been automatic since it opened in 1967 and DLR, operator is there mainly to close the doors and can drive at reduced speed during some failures.

I brake in accordance with the companies instructions for the type of traction I'm driving and complying with the defensive driving policy. Braking areas are learned when doing routes as are route risks such as low adhesion areas, signals which have late sighting, read across risks, etc etc. We are not meant to use the full braking capability of the train in normal running.

Automatic driving takes care of all the braking issues and can reliably exploit the full capability of train and route and all signal sighting issues are eliminated along with the signals!

 

[455driver]

Automatic driving takes care of all the braking issues and can reliably exploit the full capability of train and route and all signal sighting issues are eliminated along with the signals!

Plus it gives a very jerky ride swapping from heavy braking to full acceleration and back to full braking a few seconds later, it may "exploit the full capability of train and route" but it certainly isnt smooth.

 

[notadriver]

Victoria Line has been automatic since it opened in 1967 and DLR, operator is there mainly to close the doors and can drive at reduced speed during some failures.



Automatic driving takes care of all the braking issues and can reliably exploit the full capability of train and route and all signal sighting issues are eliminated along with the signals!

Well you from your posts you obviously don't appreciate the skills train drivers have. Metro operations such as the Victoria line are completely different to main line ones. Of course computers can do everything better. We could even have pilot less planes but we don't.

 

[A-driver]

Here we go again with the automation argument...

How about we let computers do everything they can (which is pretty much everything).

They can drive trains, planes, boats, cars etc, they can run the factories and industry, they can fully take over supermarkets, they could replace bar staff and waiters with vending machines, they could work in banks, make music, take over from doctors and surgeons in many levels, build houses and the list goes on and on.

Then we can get rid of the vast majority of the jobs in the country, if we don't need staff then we don't need managers, HR people, tax workers (well they'd be computerised anyway but no one would be working so no one would be paying tax) etc.

Then no one would have any money so no one could afford to use any if these automated services anyway-so I suppose it would be perfectly safe as no one would be getting on a train to go to work or on holiday etc.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

From an economic point of view, people would just find other work. It wasnt much more than 150 years ago when almost everybody was a farmer and when they industrialised agriculture people freaked out because nobody knew what normal folk would do for jobs. It turned out alright in the end, didnt it?

 

[A-driver]

From an economic point of view, people would just find other work. It wasnt much more than 150 years ago when almost everybody was a farmer and when they industrialised agriculture people freaked out because nobody knew what normal folk would do for jobs. It turned out alright in the end, didnt it?

I don't think that can be compared with automating everything. In those days there was still plenty of manual work to be done.

And the post was a bit tounge in cheek anyway-it was more that the issue of automation keeps coming up and being done to death on here with the same predictable posts. Automation on the railways will not happen for the foreseeable future. For a start they need to remove all the level crossings/foot crossings. Then they can start automation but the cost would be astronomical and isn't going to happen!