Railway staff lying to the BTP

[EM2]

Even people who describe themselves as liberal and tolerant have been shown in tests to have an instinctive prejudice against black people.

What, even people who are non-white?

 

[soil]

What, even people who are non-white?

Asians, for starters, yes. I don't see why you imagine that only white people would be prejudiced.

 

[EM2]

I don't. Your comment says that liberal and tolerant people have an instinctive prejudice to black people.
Some liberal and tolerant people are black, which by your argument means that they are instinctively prejudiced against themselves.

 

[tony_mac]

What, even people who are non-white?

Would you believe, yes.
Although obviously it's not a simple answer.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/background/faqs.html#faq1

Is the common preference for White over Black in the Black-White attitude IAT a simple 'ingroup' preference -- for example, the same as liking members of one's family or feeling connected to people who come from one's hometown?
Answer: For White respondents, the automatic White preference may in some sense be an ingroup preference. However, the automatic White preference is more than that -- it is observed with similar strength among Asian Americans, for whom neither Black nor White is an ingroup. In this sense, the IAT may reflect an attitude that is learned through experience in a culture that does not regard Black Americans highly. Moreover, if the IAT result represented an ingroup preference exclusively, then Black Americans should show for their group the same level of automatic preference. We know that that is not the case. 50% of Black Americans show automatic Black preference, but the remaining half show an automatic White preference. We conclude from such data that the IAT preference is some combination of an automatic preference for one’s own, moderated by what one’s learns is regarded to be “good” in the larger culture.

Do Black participants show a preference for Black over White on the race attitude IAT?
Answer: Although the majority of White respondents show a preference for White over Black, the responses from Black respondents are more varied. Although some Black participants show liking for White over Black, others show no preference, and yet others show a preference for Black over White. Data collected from this website consistently reveal approximately even numbers of Black respondents showing a pro-White bias as show a pro-Black bias. Part of this might be understood as Black respondents experiencing the similar negative associations about their group from experience in their cultural environments, and also experiencing competing positive associations about their group based on their own group membership and that of close relations. For more information see Nosek, Banaji, & Greenwald, 2002.

but I fear this is drifting somewhat from the original topic...

 

[Ferret]

but I fear this is drifting somewhat from the original topic...

One day society will move on! Probably long after we've gone...:cry:

 

[455driver]

Asians, for starters, yes. I don't see why you imagine that only white people would be prejudiced.

Because that Asian* female MP (quite a good looking one actually ) told us "only white people can be racist!"

As an MP said it it must be true!

* I think it was.

 

[12CSVT]

As you've asked, no, I'm black.

If this is one of the reasons why you have been getting so much hassle, I find it very disturbing. It's almost as though we've learned nothing from the Scarman report or MacPherson report.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

 

[transmanche]

I've watched this thread with interest - as I have many previous thread involving RJ.

RJ comes across as an eloquent person. I have no reason to doubt that when challenged about the validity of a specific ticket, he explains why it is valid calmly and comprehensively.

I can imagine that he is well known to most RPIs working for the TOCs he travels on - even those who have not met him personally will doubtless be aware of him because of 'messroom gossip'. I can also imagine that a small minority of RPIs will see him as a 'challenge' and take great delight in trying to 'catch him out'. The question is why they (sometimes) try to involve BTP instead of just filling out a TRI and moving on - there's a world of difference between a obvious chancer and someone who can explain exactly why they believe their ticket is valid.

Of course the real problem is that the National Rail fares and ticketing system is simply not fit for purpose. It's arcane and overly complex. TOCs are happy to use the full weight of the law (including laws specific to the industry) to punish trivial errors and minor mistakes. So it's not surprising that some people (such as RJ) will exploit the system's complexity in order to pay as little as possible - and certainly less than the TOC intended to be paid.

Some have condemned RJ for doing this deliberately to provoke TOCs and/or staff. I can't agree. I may not have the balls to try what he does [*] he's doing nothing wrong - he's just playing TOCs at their own game. And winning.


[*] Ever since (as a child) I was refused access to a train by a BR ticket collector at Liverpool Street, on the basis he claimed it was a "fallacy" that Travelcards were valid on BR trains between Liverpool St and Stratford - despite it being clearly shown as valid on tube maps.

 

[12CSVT]

[*] Ever since (as a child) I was refused access to a train by a BR ticket collector at Liverpool Street, on the basis he claimed it was a "fallacy" that Travelcards were valid on BR trains between Liverpool St and Stratford - despite it being clearly shown as valid on tube maps.

It always has been valid as far as I'm aware.

 

[transmanche]

It always has been valid as far as I'm aware.

Oh I knew it was valid. But when you're a kid and 'the man' says no, there's very little you can do...

 

[RJ]

I appealed the Penalty Fare I was issued with at Stratford International.

The RPSS have rejected it on the basis that I didn't supply them with the original ticket. So now the onus is on me to supply them with either the ticket, or with details including the issuing station, facility used to buy the ticket, type of ticket, cost of ticket, method of payment, date and time of issue and ticket validity.

They have added a £20.00 admin fee but this isn't going to be paid, because the Penalty Fare should never have been issued. I did tell the RPI this at the time and provided him with a specific reference to the clause prohibiting it, but he wilfully chose to ignore this.

I think it's about time I took the bull by the horns with this one, as the system is proving to fail time and time again when exhausted through these channels.

 

[Rich McLean]

Think its time you took this one to court, an example needs to be made out of them here

 

[soil]

Think its time you took this one to court, an example needs to be made out of them here

RJ can't take them to court.

He needs to ignore the PF, and wait for them either to (attempt to) enforce it in the county court, or cancel it and prosecute him.

 

[Wolfie]

RJ can't take them to court.

He needs to ignore the PF, and wait for them either to (attempt to) enforce it in the county court, or cancel it and prosecute him.

Agreed - and when he wins screw them for the largest possible costs!

What is interesting is that yet again a so-called independent body run by and for TOCs finds for them even when they are wrong - quelle surprise. The time has come for the Penalty Fare scheme to have a truly independent adjudication and enforcement arm, something which a number of MPs have begun to recognise as have certain of the rail magazines....

 

[soil]

Agreed - and screw them for the largest possible costs!

Unfortunately it tends not to work like that either....

 

[RJ]

With regards to the incident with the FGW members of staff at Paddington, I have downloaded a copy of an incident report which can be viewed here. I redacted the personal information, otherwise all else is as it was submitted.

Neither the ticketing dispute, nor the comment relating to persons removed from the train pertains to me. I continued my journey from the station without being delayed or challenged by anyone. The police did investigate and it appears they quite correctly concluded it was complete and utter claptrap. I do not expect FGW to allow a member of their staff to cause commotion and a pointless delay to the Underground and submit malicious, false claims with complete impunity. I will be submitting a formal complaint against those involved.

 

[Ferret]

Did you ever establish whether the victim of this alleged assault mentioned in this report was making a complaint?

 

[TG]

I can confirm too from personal experience that it's shockingly easy how presenting a valid ticket during a routine ticket inspection can escalate to being threatened with the police. I was travelling with First Great Western before Christmas when this happened; I was travelling by the most obvious, shortest route for my journey and on a direct train (no routeing guide anomalies here!), but my ticket was dated the previous day and I had broken my journey overnight.

i am confused about this.... what type of ticket were you travelling on, what time of day did you continue your journey?!

its not entirely shocking for a guard to say a ticket dated the previous day is invalid, only certain ticket types can have an overnight break of journey and there is a time restriction on when you must complete your journey by....

and if i hear "poor training" one more time, im going to throw an avantix at someone!!

 

[bb21]

and if i hear "poor training" one more time, im going to throw an avantix at someone!!

Don't do that. You know that they will start printing themselves ALRs if some people get hold of an Avantix, don't you?

 

[tony_mac]

I can confirm too from personal experience that it's shockingly easy how presenting a valid ticket during a routine ticket inspection can escalate to being threatened with the police. I was travelling with First Great Western before Christmas when this happened; I was travelling by the most obvious, shortest route for my journey and on a direct train (no routeing guide anomalies here!), but my ticket was dated the previous day and I had broken my journey overnight.

I was threatened with police for using a Liverpool to Lichfield City ticket and a Stafford to London ticket on the same train, because I didn't want to get off at Stafford or buy a new ticket to Stafford. Personally, I found it all quite stressful.

and if i hear "poor training" one more time, im going to throw an avantix at someone!!

I think "poor training" is mostly just a euphemism for "rubbish at their job" - 'cos saying that is usually considered rude!

 

[michael769]

RJ can't take them to court.

Actually he could. His accounts describe multiple material breaches of contract, and he could sue them for the recovery of any financial costs or losses that he has incurred as a result.

Not that I am recommending such a course of action - the sums involved would not be worth the time, effort and risk to be honest, and in my experience few litigants ever manage recover all their costs.

 

[Flamingo]

Don't do that. You know that they will start printing themselves ALRs if some people get hold of an Avantix, don't you?

 

[BrownE]

i am confused about this.... what type of ticket were you travelling on, what time of day did you continue your journey?!

Take a look at the Guide to Fares & Ticketing (for off-peak tickets)

Valid for 2 days, however the journey must be commenced on the first day. An overnight stay en-route is allowed as follows:

• If the individual ticket restrictions allow break of journey
  Overnight stay anywhere en-route allowed if the passenger so wishes; it is his/her decision alone.
• If the individual ticket restrictions prohibit break of journey
  Overnight stay only allowed if the journey cannot reasonably be completed in one day - although it is still the passenger's decision where to stop off; it does not necessarily involve travelling as far as possible before services stop for the night.

In both cases the journey may be resumed at any time (taking account of any validity restrictions) on the second day.*

As this is wildly off topic, I'd suggest if you have follow up questions you either post them somewhere like this thread or start another.

 

[TG]

that's all fine and well, breaks of journey ARE allowed but im pretty sure that you cant buy a ticket, say for example, from Sheffield to York, valid until the 30th April, decide to spend the night in Doncaster and then resume your journey the following day (1st may) when your ticket is now out of date!!!

its not off topic as much as some of the things in here....

guess its down to "poor training" !!! :roll:

 

[bb21]

that's all fine and well, breaks of journey ARE allowed but im pretty sure that you cant buy a ticket, say for example, from Sheffield to York, valid until the 30th April, decide to spend the night in Doncaster and then resume your journey the following day (1st may) when your ticket is now out of date!!!

It is indeed permitted. A brief should have gone out from ATOC at the time of the revision to the NRCoC in October 2011 stating that the decision to break the journey overnight remains one for the passenger to make alone, consistent with previous wording. This was confirmed by ATOC and receipt was confirmed by a senior member of staff at Virgin Trains.

There is no compulsion to travel as far as one can on the first day. The only stipulation is that the journey must have started on the first day, and that relevant time restrictions apply on the second day of travel too.

 

[TG]

it depends on the ticket type...

say for example SDS (standard day single) it permits a break of journey but the journey must be completed in the day. a SOS (standard open single) also permits a break of journey but you have five days to complete it in.

some tickets allow overnight break even if the expirey date is the previous day, these are usually associated with journies which physically can not be made within the day...

I shall post EXACTLY what it says in the TEH (ticket examiners handbook) issued only a few months ago, when i get back from my travels.

Ticket is out of date, then tough luck you'll need to buy another one!

Queue the posts stating that i am wrong, poorly trained and that the TEH is wrong and they are right... :roll::roll:

 

[soil]

Doesn't matter what it says in the handbook, tbh.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The reason for my post was to highlight the ease with which a passenger with a valid ticket can end up being threatened with the police. The ticket was valid without a doubt (outward portion of an Off-Peak Return, resumed the next morning) but that isn't really relevant to the current discussion...

 

[grid56126]

RJ

I know our paths have crossed in the past (online) and I come with no malice and am not in any way going to justify the actions of staff physically restraining you. If you have had malicious accusations made against you then that is reprehensible.

I am also impressed with the speed that you stated the type of ticket you were using on this occasion!

Anyway, like you I have fallen foul of circumstances in the past, in my case being guilty of travelling to main land Europe far too much and to places that were deemed as being a risk, to the extent that I was frequently detained on my way back home. In most cases a simple proof of where I had been was enough to get waved away, although on one occasion this took a few hours. I had no recourse to complain, the immigration and customs bods can pretty much do as they please! I learnt a lot from it and as with most things like this, rather than get caught up in a hate campaign I actually found the whole procedure quite interesting. Of course getting married and having kids took me off the radar!

Anyway, back to the matter in hand. You state that when at Ashford you had an itinerary issued by the ticket office as evidence which was obviously not believed. Before you embark on your adventures you obviously do some (!) research. You also know that the staff you encounter will be unfamiliar with that research. I know and you know that they will almost certainly not be trained to that level of understanding. Would it not be pertinent to simply carry the extracts that you use to do your research as evidence to show staff that you ticket is indeed valid? I appreciate that there is no obligation on your part to do so. When I used to get stopped on a regular basis I always kept receipts from Hotels and reservations on sleepers etc as evidence that I had nothing to hide. This did seem to help me. Or is there, just a little part of you that likes the thrill of it?

Grid

 

[RJ]

Did you ever establish whether the victim of this alleged assault mentioned in this report was making a complaint?

I haven't been called as a witness so as far as I'm concerned, I'm clear of it.